Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

JoeC,
Yes, you are correct regarding the big block vs the smaller version and yes, todays blocks are the same size. As you know, there is a BIG difference between the 427 C5R race cases and a standard LS1. GM sells the Race Case and the internals are not for sale through GM. They are all custom ordered. I like referring to these motors as a modern day big block, and I'm sorry if I confused people here. You are very accurate in your knowledge. Today the C5R race motors are different as well to the street versions, but the race case (bare block) is the same. Was the CanAM race motor the same block as the ZL1 Camaro Motor? and/or was it machined differently? Were the CanAM motors the first 427 motors Chevy built then they made a street (ZL1) version for the '69 Camaros and Corvettes?

I always like comparing the old with today, and the similarities are there but they are very different animals like you said . . .BUT, I still have to believe that these C5R race cases are the modern version of what Chevy is racing with and the ZL1 motor was the choice then and the C5R motors are the choice today. Were the CanAM ZL1 motors used in the 24 hour races at Le Mans and Daytona in 1969 ?? and were there production Corvettes running the ZL1 (RPO) version in Le Mans or the Daytona 24 in 1969 and 1970 ?? If so, that is why I refer to them, as the modern day ZL1 motor. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Great discussion, I have always preferred the small block, and always hoped it would win out in the end. It looks like this new C5R engine will become chevrolet lore in the future. This sounds like another small block engine built in the '60's for limited production, the Z28. Today's 302 TransAm counterpart is a 700hp motor, however, based on earlier technology.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

***This is from memory without my notes so may not be 100%****
The ZL1 and the CanAm BB Chevy have as much resemblance to the C5R engine as the Toyota race engine that won LeMans. The LS1/LS6 C5R engine is a complete new generation of engines - nothing like a BB Chevy. If you must compare it to an old engine program, the C5R engine is more of a decedent of the 1963 Grand Sport Corvette program that got canceled. The GS Corvette had a 377 aluminum small block race engine designed from the 1963 327 RPO Corvette engine. Zora and his boys had high hopes to win LeMans, Daytona, and Sebring but Chevy gave the ax to the GS. The C5R won the race that many Corvettes fans wanted to win for many years so the C5R already has its own place in history.
The CanAm engines were designed by Chevy engineering to help Jim Hall Chaparrals win CanAm races and to show off Chevy engineering expertise. I have seen 4 different CanAm blocks and there are probably more. They came out about 1966 as BB Chevys cast in alu, then progressed to special castings with Siamese cyl/cast iron liners, then "Reynolds" blocks with no liners. The stock block in aluminum was not strong enough for CanAm but by 1968 the CanAm block engine was working good and Chevy sold the block as an HD service item later passed on to Don Yenko. Other teams such as McLaren were very successful with this killer BB Chevy engine beating the best in the world.
The ZL1 engine was released as RPO for Corvettes as an alu block L88 engine. This made it legal for SCCA competition who did not require car production minimums. It was not a special order race block like the C5R. Fred Gibb did COPO 9560 to get the RPO ZL1 Corvette engine in 50 Camaros so he (and Chevy) can have some fun in Super Stock drag racing. The "ZL1" Camaro was made for one reason which was to make it a legal Super Stock class drag car. Bill Grumpy Jenkins put a 430 cu in CanAm engine in a 68 Camaro and won the first ever Pro Stock race in 1970. Beating the Hemi with the BB Chevy was a really big deal back then to Chevy fans although the Sox & Martin Hemi won the 70 Pro Stock title. Getting back to the subject of this post, I like the 2002 Camaros but I don't see where the 2002 ZL1 Camaro got its right to use the ZL1 name and I hope the 2002 Motion Camaro does not disrespect the old Motion Camaros. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

The Early ZL1-Is like being the Babe Ruth of engines,and along comes the new kid on the block -modern/ZL1*-- Roger Marris of engines--both reached a certain goal, but the ZL1 WILL always have the status of being one of the greatest engines designed/produced, and that can never be over-shadowed, however I have nothing but admiration for the designers to be able to achieve over 600 hp and still get 22-24 mpg & AC. In my backyard mechanic opinion there will never be another ZL1 ,even if just for it's legacy, but with Berger,Murphy & Rosen I can see no better team to built the 2002 Motion Camaro and try to carry on the legacy of Motion & the ZL1 with the modern ZL1* [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif[/img]
THE ONLY THING-- I'm having a hard time picturing someone blasting down the track in 10sec.or less with the AC on---I always thought sweat was part of the deal whether it was 1969 or 2002. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Just turn the AC off then blast down the track with some sweat...may be worth a few tenths!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

I think the corvette started this, but isn't there a switch which turns the compressor off when you are at WOT?

Paul T

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Just to finished my rant.
Another reason the LS1/LS6 CR5 engine is no big block Chevy.
BB Chevy engines from the first 1963 427 Mystery engine have the famous porcupine semi Hemi heads with slanted valve design. The LS1/LS6 CR5 engine has the valves inline more like the SB Chevy design. In my opinion, the LS1/LS6 CR5 engine as not a SB Chevy or a BB Chevy because it is a complete new design.

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

If I'm not mistaken the new .090 C5R heads are canted valves and I'm sure they require Jesel valve train and a different intake. That's what is taking so long to get my C5R motor built. And as I posted earlier, who needs a/c?

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

JoeC

I think you are missing my point here on the comparison of an original ZL1 motor and the new C5R (not CR5) motor. You are correct in that it is completely different when comparing it to a big block (or even a small block). I wasn't meaning that they are similar in the design or components, that is obvious, and to those not familiar with the new GM 427 Race Case, I see your point, and my mistake for not mentioning that [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img].

The original ZL1 motors and cars have a place in Chevrolet, Camaro, Drag Racing, and Corvette History that will never be touched or directly compared to because that style of motor and time in history is done and over with and nothing like it at the time or after it, ever touched it. Now that we are into the new design for GM racing motors and a new era, this new 427 certainly carries on the tradition of those ZL1 motors in cubic inches, aluminum material, factory racing heritage, bore and stroke, and probably a few more things in common, like serious horse power . . . Just ask the Viper guys and the Saleens [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img].

I would love to see Chevrolet do an emission legal version of the C5R 427 motor and put it into the Corvette and call it a ZL1, and build two of them, well OK, maybe a small production run. For the record, we will not be doing a ZL1 Corvette, but it would be cool if Chevy did. I know some people didn't like the name ZL1 on our pilot car we built for Chevrolet, or the 69 production cars we built, but they do the original cars proud and they have brought back a lot of attention to those legendary people we know so well. I want to give them the credit they deserve on a larger scale, so the new generation can be educated on some of the muscle car legends from Chevy's past [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img].

I got a call today from a magazine called, "In The News." and they heard about these cars and are very interested in doing a story on Fred Gibb and the original ZL1's. I would never had used ZL1 if Chevrolet, myself and a few '69 ZL1 owners didn't think the new car was worthy of it. Two years ago, we all talked about the name when we made the pilot vehicle for Chevrolet and ZL1 was agreed to by 90% of us, and one or two said not to use it and leave it alone, call it a ZL2 or something else. I hate leaving history alone especially if it can do what it has done in this case.

I hope you and all can make it to the Fred Gibb Memorial Car show the weekend of Aug. 2nd. You and others are going to see what these cars have done for the name Fred Gibb and ZL1 and it makes me proud to be involved in that. By the way, Helen Gibb just had a birthday yesterday. Email her if anyone here can get the chance. She would love to hear from you. [email protected]

Re: 2002 Motion Camaro
 

Are you saying that the 2002 Camaro ZL1 with the 2002 Z06 Corvette LS1/LS6 350 cu in alu engine is a small block ZL1 and the 2002 Camaro ZL1 with the C5R race case 427 cu in engine is a big block ZL1 even though it is the same size engine outside dimensions? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

As I said above, you are causing a lot of confusion by mis using the old engine names. I guess you can call the car a ZL1 Camaro but you can't call the engine a big block ZL1. Chevy is still using the ZL1 name for the new ZL1 based on the old real BB Chevy ZL1 engine. I have listed below two ads from the Jim Pace Chevrolet web site.


Now imagine opening a carbon L88 style hood on a 2002 Motion Camaro and having those big badd Ram Jet ZL1 valve covers pop out at you. Kinda makes the C5R engine look like a rice burner. That is why the C5R is no big block Chevy. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

http://www.paceparts.com/images/prod...0Ram%20Jet.jpg

<font color="blue"> Chevy Ram Jet ZL1: part no. 88961499 price $21,454.00
Getting a hold of one of these may be more difficult than hitting your state lottery. GM Performance Parts is proud to bring back a legend, if only for a limited time. The Ram Jet ZL1 is the í69 ZL1 of the new millennium, with its revised aluminum block, a solid roller cam, large oval port aluminum cylinder heads, and the Ram Jet fuel injection system. That's right...Fuel Injection. The Ram Jet ZL1 is 454 cid with a street friendly 10.2:1 compression ratio that will idle all day long, unlike its predecessor of 1969. If you want a Ram Jet ZL1 get in line now, GM Performance Parts will be producing a very limited 200 of these all-aluminum Rat Motors for sale on the open market

ZL1 Alu Big Block part no. 12370850 price $5,115.45
The Chevrolet aluminum big-block is back and better than ever. This block was first introduced in the 1969 Corvette and Camaro. It was one of the rarest production engines ever built. Now the improved version is available. This block is based on the original tooling. The new casting is made from 356-T6M aluminum alloy and has a 4.250" cast iron liner that can be bored to 4.300". The bottom end has also been improved with new 4-bolt splayed steel main caps, with dowel pins to locate and hold the caps in place. This block includes screw-in freeze plugs with o-ring seals, and a two-piece rear main oil seal. the new block has a provision for both dry sump or regular oil pump systems and mechanical fuel pump. All GM Performance Parts cylinder heads will fit this block and it weighs only 110 lbs. The maximum stroke is 4.375".
</font>