Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE...Tenney talked to Jim Wangers recently about this car and the story has some new facts.


I remember my dad speaking of his friend Jim Wangers' GTO. How he'd
feel the blood rush to the back of his head when Jim would get on it.
He'd quote the numbers it achieved in the controversial Car and Driver
magazine test comparing it to the Ferrari GTO. He'd tell me it was the
fastest car on Woodward Avenue.

I remember Jim's GTO in the lot at dad's office, McManus, John and
Adams, when I was four years old. The heat rising from the front
fender wells (of which I paralleled in height at the time), along with
the smell of fuel, oil and rubber. Oh, and it was the first car I'd
heard make those noises.

Feel pretty lucky to have it parked in our garage, today.

Jim ordered it new for the infamous Car and Driver test comparing it to
the Ferrari GTO (11/08/63 Production Manifest states “Delete all
insulation” “Memo 199 Tag Wangers”, among other stuff.). Additionally,
a 421 was installed. Per Jim Wangers, this was a factory effort. The
motor was a stock, big car 421 HO. It was “Bobcatted” at Royal Pontiac
and driven by Jim to Florida for the acceleration chapter of the C&D
road test.

A 389 equipped, nocturne blue pilot GTO was used for the "handling"
portion of evaluation.

The 421 in the red car met w/a bearing issue (#6, per Jim) during
testing and was flat-towed back to Royal by the blue pilot car. A
thankless task, it turns out, as the blue pilot car was crushed (also a
factory effort) shortly upon return. The red car (er, this one), fresh
“Bobcatted” 421 HO in place, was given to Wangers as his demo. It was
never modified beyond this while with Jim.

It was the car to beat on Woodward for a while, I'm told. And drew the
attention of, among others, a Royal Oak Cop named Bill Sherman. Near
the end of the year (08/21/04), Wangers took a new ’65 GTO demo, and
the ‘64 was placed in the showroom at Royal and sold, w/warranty, to
Bill Sherman. As noted, he knew what he was buying (Bill of Sale reads
“Wangers Demo”).

Bill also raced the GTO (at the track). The 421 eventually grenaded
and Bill installed a 428 and ran it some more. Then he parked it for a
while. At some point Bill and Milt Schornack (Royal's wrench) brought
the car back out, this time with a period-correct 421, 12.5 to 1’s,
Lunati solid roller, headers and cowl plenum - along w/a locked diff.
and 4.33's in a 12 bolt - for further track duty.

This is the way the car is currently configured - w/original paint,
interior (except front carpet) and 44K on the clock. Bill kept every
scrap of paper the car came with, along with subsequent service
records, bound in a notebook, which is still with the car.

Bill passed away, and his widow sold the car a decade, or so, ago to a
fellow in New Jersey. It is he who I pestered into, thankfully,
sending it along to me, recently.

It's a bit of a chipped up relic, and has Day 10 (or so) written all
over it. It'd likely be ripe for a resto for some. I sort of like it
as it sits, though.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2192.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2126.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2128.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/gto4copy.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2132.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2131.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../gto18copy.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2134.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1.../gto11copy.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2129.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...O/IMG_2135.jpg

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Very cool GTO...I love the 64's. What a great story to go along with a very nice car! COngrats on getting it...by the way...leave it "Day 10"... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

I think I remember reading that "test" comparison. If I remember correctly, the guys at Car & Driver had virtually no drag race experience. Seems like they got the best time in the Pontiac by starting out in 2nd gear. Complained that there was simply too much "torque multiplication" to start out in first. Guess they never heard of feathering the throttle off the line!!! Yeah, that's how to ring out a muscle car and get the best time. This ring a bell for anyone? Anyone have a copy of the article? I am going completley on memory here, as I would have read this article while in college in the early 70's (had a bunch of car mags on microfiche in the library).

Someone help me out here.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Was this car in Vineland, NJ?

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Very Nice! Congrats..!

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Awesome car, great history very cool that you knew some of the people involved, looks great in pictures. IMHO you shouldn't restore it.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

awesome GTO https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif,my old man always wanted a 64-67 GTO when i was a kid probably would have traded me in for 1 lol https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Marlin,I think its the car Conte's Corvettes had in the back of the shop. vineland nj.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

that is an awesome piece......I wonder if thats the GTO that Wangers used to sucker guys with...they would tool around to the cruise spots or hang outs and sucker guys into races...what they would do (Wangers) was get them to bet against a bone stock GTO and pull the "HOTTER" one out after they made their wagers...this story was told by Wangers himself....it thats the one....you have indeed a very special car....

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

That's what I thought Don, found via a newspaper ad in Phila?

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Thanks, gents.

Yep, the car spent past 15 (or so) years in Vineland, Marlin. Was found through another dealer, I'm told.

Heard same story re: this car, Blown Away. Though wasn't there as a witness.

Flipped through Hot Rod mags and stuff in school, too, Lynn. Don't have the C&D issue handy, though "torque multiplication" still owns those Schwinn-inspired redlines.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Great car just the way it is. Don't restore it.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

I agree, car is perfect the way it is

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Who put the cowl plenum air cleaner on it? I did not see it on the car when I looked at it down there. How did you get him to sell it?? I asked him lots of times but he said no. Then I heard he was telling people he wanted 100k for it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Outstanding car Tenny!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif
What a piece of real history from the beginning of the musclecar days https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif
Please keep it just the way it is..................but it's ok if you want to remove a little rubber from the rear tires once in awhile........

Love the car! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Verne

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Thanks, Verne. Per Paul Zazarine's book, Don, Milt/Royal installed the cowl plenum, among other "performance experiments", in '64. Though likely had to remove to sell w/warranty end 'o year to Bill Sherman. Comes right off for "stock" look w/block-off plate on firewall.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Tenney:

Do you remember what issue of Car and Driver? I would like to run one down. I have a 1968 Car & Driver with a comparo test of a 68 Z/28 and Tunnel Port 302 Mustang. It is awesome reading. Sam Posey rung out both cars on the track. Z/28 was loaded with console and power steering, four wheel disc brakes, cross ram and TI ignition. Prepped by GM. Ran a 13.71 on the E 70 bias ply tires (looked like Suzuki tires, according to the author, expecially next to the F 60 15 tires stuffed in the Mustang wheel wells).

Any one remember what issue?

BTW, I agree, I wouldn't change a thing on this car.

Lynn

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

March 64 issue of Car and Driver. Entire article is avialable for viewing:

http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclec...articles.shtml

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Cool, Lynn. Been a bit since I'd flipped through that article. "It is, incidentally, a very pleasant car to go off the road in, provided you don't catch a finger in the whirling spokes of the steering wheel" seems an interesting item of test critera.

An aside, the "correspondent" the article referenced, Roger Proulx, was a copywriter at McManus who worked with my Dad and Jim. Roger penned, among others, the ad that featured an image of an empty garage at night with the headline: "There's a Tiger loose in the streets". Pretty popular in the day, I'm told.

Btw, I read the Posey/Tunnel Port/Cross Ram test in the school library a few years back. Weren't the meats on the Boss some trick one-offs and they couldn't score a set for the Z to even things up (been a while)?

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

YOu are exactly right. The "rules" were each camp could prepare the cars with anything available over the counter to the general public. That is why the Camaro had 4 wheel discs and the crossram. The Car & Driver guys balked at the sight of the Goodyears, especially since the paint around the wheel wells was blistering around the wheel wells, so they contacted Goodyear who told them they didn't make an F60 15 yet. Ford guy steps up and says, sure they do, how many do you want?

Pretty good reading. I need to dig that mag out and scan the article so all can see. Sam Posey was really entertaining. What fun.

I must have been thinking of another magazine that tested the early GTO. I specifically remember the jokers starting out in 2nd gear to keep from frying the tires in some magazine test. Sure thought it was that one. I do have a line on some older mags, and if I run across the March 64 Car and Driver one I will certainly pass it on to you.

Lynn

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Already have a copy, Lynn, thanks. Know where it is but my decimal system isn't as handy as Dewey's. Bit of a pack rat, I guess. Thanks for the link, though. Good to give it another read.

Some cool notes from old Goat/Pontiac tests here:
http://www.angelfire.com/on/geebjen/roadtest.html

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Congratulations Tenney! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif That is a great GTO! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

I am too young to remember that car back in '64, but I was there when Bill Sherman and Milt brought the car out in the late 80's and when these photos were shot (my husband Bill owns the turquoise and white '69 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif).

Rita https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/142...yalbobcats.JPG

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if thats the GTO that Wangers used to sucker guys with...they would tool around to the cruise spots or hang outs and sucker guys into races...what they would do (Wangers) was get them to bet against a bone stock GTO and pull the "HOTTER" one out after they made their wagers...this story was told by Wangers himself....

[/ QUOTE ]

I was not around back then, but have heard that story several times. I seem to remember the cars being "white" and a later model ('66 or '67), but I'm not sure. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif I'll ask my husband tomorrow https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Rita https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Thanks, Rita. That RAV is one of my all-time favs - have a cool scale replica of it. Cars look okay side-by-side, don't they?

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[ QUOTE ]
That RAV is one of my all-time favs - have a cool scale replica of it. Cars look okay side-by-side, don't they?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they do https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Bill has them next to each other in his display case (these are models he built years ago) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/142...ofDSC00418.JPG

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[ QUOTE ]
that is an awesome piece......I wonder if thats the GTO that Wangers used to sucker guys with...they would tool around to the cruise spots or hang outs and sucker guys into races...what they would do (Wangers) was get them to bet against a bone stock GTO and pull the "HOTTER" one out after they made their wagers...this story was told by Wangers himself....it thats the one....you have indeed a very special car....

[/ QUOTE ]

That was a pair of white (with black vinyl top) '67 GTO's that they did that with. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Cool bookends. Know where Bill came across the '64?

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

No doubt this '64 GTO is one of the most significant cars of the Musclecar Era. Not only was the GTO the original American musclecar (some Mopar guys may argue), this '64 GTO put a young magazine, Car & Driver on the map.
http://pontiacdragdays.com/64RoyalBobcatE.jpg

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Pretty cool car !! I think Tenney kinda likes it too !!!

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cool bookends. Know where Bill came across the '64?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tenney,

That is a 1:24th scale model that he built. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Rita https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who put the cowl plenum air cleaner on it? I did not see it on the car when I looked at it down there. How did you get him to sell it?? I asked him lots of times but he said no. Then I heard he was telling people he wanted 100k for it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Per Jim Wangers, the motor was a stock, big car 421 HO with a Bobcat kit while the car was with him (new thru 08/64). No headers, cowl plenum, etc.

Been told by others and have read that the cowl plenum and headers were built/installed by Milt, along with present 12.5 to 1, Lunati solid roller 421. Not sure when or in what sequence these items were fitted, exactly.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cool bookends. Know where Bill came across the '64?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tenney,

That is a 1:24th scale model that he built. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Rita https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, Rita. Thanks.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Those tests caused a big stir with the guys I cruised with back when-------------- https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif piece of automotive History---Glad to see it almost in person https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

That is one fine car, 421, 3 deuces, RED, HELL YA!!!!!!, and yes most Mopar guys would argue but we do that all the time anyway!

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[ QUOTE ]


A 421 HO was fitted at the factory or Royal Pontiac (depends on who you ask).



[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you ask Jim Wangers, as I had the good fortune to be able to do most recently, the 421 HO swap was, in fact, a factory effort.

Oh, and it spun the #6 rod bearing during testing. Was flat-towed back to Royal by the blue GTO pilot car (which was 348 powered). The blue pilot car was crushed (also a factory effort) shortly upon return. The red car (er, this one), fresh "Bobcatted" 421 HO in place, was given to Jim as his demo. It was never modified beyond this while with Jim.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

awesome piece of Muscle Car history.. you are a lucky man https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

[/ QUOTE ]
Was flat-towed back to Royal by the blue GTO pilot car (which was 348 powered).

[/ QUOTE ]

er, that be 389/348 powered.

And thanks, Ed. Might feel even luckier if I'd invented it, built it or dominated Woodward in it. But that we had an empty spot in our garage for it has me feeling lucky all the same.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

Had a fellow ask if there were any other GTO's w/factory fitted 421's. I figured not many, if any - this being the only one I know of. Don't know for sure, though. Anyone aware of any others?

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

The good folks at Muscle Car Review swung by to shoot some pics for a story they're doing on dealer cars. August issue should hit the stands any 'ol day they say.

Re: Tenney's 64 Wangers GTO...
 

anybody remember what happened to that '69 Judge Wangers had some guy drive out on Woodward,and got fenderred by a hemi GTX?