Survivor ?????
 

Looking for people's opinions of: "What is considered a survivor car" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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Looking for people's opinions of: "What is considered a survivor car" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

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Looking for people's opinions

Oh Boy!! Let's get some popcorn and another log on the fire!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif


survivor- untouched original. see Charlies Camaro https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...arleySucks.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

My opinion.... lol. i had too..

http://www.dragracers.org/2008/york08.jpg

Re: Survivor ?????
 

original paint, original panels, born with driveline.
That to me is the ONLY definition of a survivor.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

DEFINATELY original panels and at least 75% paint ( legit )...if a driveline piece has been changed, ( block, trans, dif. ) THERE BETTER BE PAPER !!!...what is BLOOMINGTON GOLD'S (tm) deffinition?.....something like 75% in 4 catagories ? ( body, engine compartment, interior, undercarriage ) ....I think.....

Re: Survivor ?????
 

Any thing that still runs after Dru gets done taking it down the track... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

Well Frank, fortunately this NOT https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif a contentious issue....



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...12/popcorn.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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original paint, original panels, born with driveline.
That to me is the ONLY definition of a survivor.

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Yep.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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original paint, original panels, born with driveline.
That to me is the ONLY definition of a survivor.

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I would also include Vin must match hidden ones, and trim Tag must be original to VIN and instrument cluster original to VIN

Re: Survivor ?????
 

I think it is in 3 of 4 catergories but I may be mistaken... I have not been into vettes in near 20 years...

Re: Survivor ?????
 

From the stuffy https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gifvettedudes with matching cap and shirt site;

http://www.bloomingtongold.com/image..._2007-0583.jpg

Getting SURVIVOR® Certified documents the standard for unrestored vehicles. It means that a panel of judges have certified that the car meets these requirements:

*Is over 20 years old.
*Can pass a road test over 20 miles
*Remains over 50% unrestored, un-refinished, or unaltered.
*Retains finishes good enough to use as a color guide for restoration of a car just like it

Judges inspect only four components: Exterior, Interior, Engine Compartment and Chassis. Cars must pass at least three of these four categories in order to become SURVIVOR Certified.
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=survivor

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/ooo.gifThose standards are extremely lax in my opinion. I don't believe many here would call cars in that category "unrestored"! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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From the stuffy https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gifvettedudes with matching cap and shirt site;

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What he said.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/ooo.gifThose standards are extremely lax in my opinion. I don't believe many here would call cars in that category "unrestored"! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

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You may call these standards LAX however if we(camaro collectors) had these standards in place with awards for them there would be fewer restored cars and we would have a better understanding of the actual workmanship and how more things changed during production runs...
It's really our LOSS and is a shame because they had them in place 20 years ago...

Re: Survivor ?????
 

The Vette guys are a little lax in my opinion. ALL original paint and interior is important to me. Certain maintenance is necessary and does not always let the original 40 year old stuff hang around forever. Hoses,belts,shocks,wires etc. I can live with but one repaint 35 years ago bothers me. How about original paint but somebody cleared it 20 years ago? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Paint to me is the most important.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

I kinda like the original paint stuff myself, even if it looks a bit ratty. It's only original once. My term for a repainter Survivor is Rurvivor. You can always find original belts, hoses, wires, shocks and other goodies if the originals are worn out.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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The Vette guys are a little lax in my opinion. ALL original paint and interior is important to me. Certain maintenance is necessary and does not always let the original 40 year old stuff hang around forever. Hoses,belts,shocks,wires etc. I can live with but one repaint 35 years ago bothers me. How about original paint but somebody cleared it 20 years ago? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Paint to me is the most important.

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+1

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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The Vette guys are a little lax in my opinion. ALL original paint and interior is important to me. Certain maintenance is necessary and does not always let the original 40 year old stuff hang around forever. Hoses,belts,shocks,wires etc. I can live with but one repaint 35 years ago bothers me. How about original paint but somebody cleared it 20 years ago? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Paint to me is the most important.

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+1

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The Bloomington Benchmark Award =95%original in all four areas. That is what I am hearing from what most people consider survivor. Bloomington sets the standard for the term survivor and it may seem lax but it embraces many unrestored cars that have some degree of restoration and provides them with recognition. Without the survivor award many cars would have been restored, rather than preserved.

There are very few benchmark car, and they are the holygrail. Lets cut the survivor cars some slack and recognize them as well.


Google "survivor car show" for the definition and standards of survivor

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/ooo.gifThose standards are extremely lax in my opinion. I don't believe many here would call cars in that category "unrestored"! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

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You may call these standards LAX however if we(camaro collectors) had these standards in place with awards for them there would be fewer restored cars and we would have a better understanding of the actual workmanship and how more things changed during production runs...
It's really our LOSS and is a shame because they had them in place 20 years ago...

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Amen! Although, I don't know why it takes prizes or rewards to get someone to leave a good original car alone. Personally, I get much more satisfaction looking at a real unrestored car with lots of patina than a restored car. Likewise, I'd pay more money for a car in its faded original paint than the same car with shiny new paint.

IMHO, original paint and finishes are a must for a survivor... particularly details like stripes, splatter paint, original underhood finishes, underside finishes, etc. Original interiors are nice, but these cars are meant to be driven and shown off... so I don't blame an owner for making it comfortable. I'm not hung-up on matching numbers, as long as the car still sports the correct drivetrain - again, original remnants of flaked-off chevy orange beats a freshly painted block if its being represented as a survivor.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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From the stuffy https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gifvettedudes with matching cap and shirt site;

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What he said.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

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Easy now!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Survivor ?????
 

One thing that bothers me is when the "survivor" has been all but disassembled and cleaned/detailed like the so called 1970 Benchmark Chevelle. I don't have a problem with cleaning and detailing an original car but there is s stopping point.
James

Re: Survivor ?????
 

I agree with you guys but you know as well as I do that as time goes on the rules get more and more lax! Just like letting your kids stay out later and later on the weekends. Pretty soon they are coming in at 2 in the morning A "survivor" means to me that it survived! There are less and less of these cars out there so the rules have to become more lax for any participation. I am upset that the second owner of my nova thought there was a knock in the motor and took it apart. He told me that he found nothing but carbon from sitting. Maybe should have taken it down the California free way for a few miles before taking the motor out. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif What a dope! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

I can see why a lot of cars get restored, there is a lot of influence/pressure at the shows for mint cars. I for one can appreciate a car that has not been restored. I have left my '69 435HP vette unrestored on purpose and when I take it to shows people ask when the car will receive the restoration it deserves. I've also been told to sell the car to someone that will put money into it. I am the lone ranger and you need thick skin.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

They are only original once, and to me I would rather have a survior-unrestored car then one that was taken apart and only god knows what was really done with it!!!!!! Survivor car's rock!!!!!! And survivor novas are even better. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

The car shall have original paint(75%) and no clear coat. Paint repairs are OK if they are minimal such as wheel lip rust. Original drivetrain is not negotiable. Items such as shocks that are not vin'd to the car may be replaced with NOS or period correct used. This is my personal expectation. When I'm confused I defer to Brian Henderson, Frane Arone, Steve Shauger, and I love bugging Charlie(I've made room for the 70rs in my building). If I can get these guys to agree I know its safe. Any survivor yenkos out there?

Re: Survivor ?????
 

I agree, you can even take cleaning a Survivor car to far, just depend on the degree of car you start with.
Mine was an original owner car and very much unmolested, I wanted a Survivor car I could start and even drive. So I was going to clean as much as I could disassembling as little as possible, I didn't want wrench marks and wanted the car to remain true.
Wanting to car to be drivable I knew things like exhaust, plug wires, battery, heater hoses had to be changed, I had no choice.
I believe there should be a percentage or points (Like Steve's Vintage class) for these cars so mine and others has a place, and a car like Charlie's also can show at the percentage it is.
Still think should have original panels and paint, No detailing as far as paint all driveline and numbers, interior and things like hoses, tires, belts, are all bonus.
When you see a true Survivor car you can tell from a 100 feet away, or maybe that's just me, but give me one any day.


http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL17/...6/99064705.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL17/...6/99065135.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL17/.../347166256.jpg

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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.......and when I take it to shows "people ask when the car will receive the restoration it deserves" . I've also been told to sell the car to someone that will put money into it. I am the lone ranger and you need thick skin.

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those people don't "get it" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

Correction: "Frank" Arone sorry for the misspell.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

I am probably going to bring on some criticism, but, here it goes. IMO you have to recognize original cars in a variety of levels due to the fact no one can control what has happened until now. In the example of the 20k 70 Z28, if the car was in some type of fender bender, are you then going to write off the engine compartment, chassis, and interior for great examples of originality? If you narrow the recognition so far, you are just promoting restoration rather than preservation. Yes, cars need to recognized at different levels due to the amount of originality. As far as the "cleaning" of an original car, I think the discussion is very subjective. If intense cleaning of an engine compartment or chassis is considered "too much or too far", do we then not buff out and detail original paint?
Bloomington Gold and the NCRS have done something that had not been done before. They recognize and promote the preservation of cars that have "areas" of originality, not just the whole car. So many good original cars found their way into resto shops years ago due to the demand for correct cars rather than originals. Have a second thought before you hammer on Bloomington. After all, you have to start somewhere. I fear this thread is going to go too far.
Tim

Re: Survivor ?????
 

I was told at Vettefest, "at least you could of cleaned up all the rust"!!

Re: Survivor ?????
 

Tim, In all due respect....I don't think musclecar people think like Vette people! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...t/IMG_0278.jpg

Here is my 26k bb rs z. It was hit in 1970 and repainted except for the stripes. it is all original drivetrain and motor has never been out. all orginal smog,wires,cap,rotor everything under the hood. Is this a survivor?

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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Tim, In all due respect....I don't think musclecar people think like Vette people! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

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Speak for yourself Sam. The vette guys are great and have done of research and set standards, which helped pave the was for other brands. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

Not if it was repainted IMO. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif All original but????

Re: Survivor ?????
 

There are so many vague words in the collector car hobby that always get people debating. Clone, Survivor, Musclecar... there are no right or wrong answers. Just individual groups that set their own standards for meeting said criteria. No one is ever right, and no one is ever wrong.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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Not if it was repainted IMO. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif All original but????

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Don't get hung up on the term survivor. They defined it and trademarked it in late 70's early 80's. That standard has not changed. As I mentioned above....your definition of survivor is referred to as a benchmark car. If your not satisfied come up with your own term.

In Vintage Camaro we use our own terms, our highest level is legend which is similar to benchmark, however we include inspect/certify the underside via a lift which allows us more access to critical components and hardware. We also have 3 other levels based on how unrestored/original the car is. There are many cars that are repainted yet absolutely untouched in all other areas and they need to be preserved and recogonized.

An unrestored car is so much more than just paint. For example yes Charley's car is mostly original paint (great), but 90 percent of his pics were of components, hardware, finishes , inspection marks, stickers and such (most of the questions and interest were in those areas). That to me is where the assembly secrets are and where we gain the most knowledge of the "factory assembly processes".

I have passion for original paint cars, but only so much can be learned from it. Looking at virgin engine compartment, interior and trunk and underbody is equally as important.

I understand your point Sam, but if we let everyone redefine survivor then we lose THE standard and it becomes too subjective and open to anyones interpretation.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

As a Vette guy I commend Bloomington Gold for promoting the preservation of original cars. What I have seen though is a disturbing trend where cars are messaged heavily so that they can Benchmark. Why you may ask, money of course why else! I have seen cars over the years that have been completely repainted and bodies taken off the frame to clean chassis' engine repaints removed and they still pass for Benchmark. I have seen others with fender replaced and flares repaired and stock piles of NOS parts used from bumpers to taillights to door sills etc. etc. I persoanlly own a revivor as it was so put but I would rather be honest about it then participate in the continued deception that is running rampant in our hobbby. I guess I could pull the body off the frame and let the car age outside several years and who knows maybe I can have a benchmark car too! I think Bloomington needs to change their standards by measuring paint thickness for one or else the award that I used to hold in such high regard will be meaningless.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

Hey Steve, You guys at Carlisle are the judges. You have seen way more cars than me. I will respect your calls and judgments. I am sure this type of judging is not an easy task. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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As a Vette guy I commend Bloomington Gold for promoting the preservation of original cars. What I have seen though is a disturbing trend where cars are messaged heavily so that they can Benchmark. Why you may ask, money of course why else! I have seen cars over the years that have been completely repainted and bodies taken off the frame to clean chassis' engine repaints removed and they still pass for Benchmark. I have seen others with fender replaced and flares repaired and stock piles of NOS parts used from bumpers to taillights to door sills etc. etc. I persoanlly own a revivor as it was so put but I would rather be honest about it then participate in the continued deception that is running rampant in our hobbby. I guess I could pull the body off the frame and let the car age outside several years and who knows maybe I can have a benchmark car too! I think Bloomington needs to change their standards by measuring paint thickness for one or else the award that I used to hold in such high regard will be meaningless.

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In Vintage Camaro we measure paint thickness and verify what should be found in factory applied paint. As you mention massaging of the cars is a problem. We rather have an untouched car. We don't mind a dull paint and a little dirt. It doesn't effect our certification process.

I am also involved with Bloomingtons Survivor Show, and was surprised that measuring paint was a no-no.

Re: Survivor ?????
 

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Hey Steve, You guys at Carlisle are the judges. You have seen way more cars than me. I will respect your calls and judgments. I am sure this type of judging is not an easy task. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

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I just wanted to point out that the term is/has been defined by the Vette community (Bloomington Gold) I am sure not everyone accepts it, but it is a line in the sand.

Novaivor is a term you may want to coin and define as a nova survivor. OK Sam have at it.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

I can't wait to see your LB Nova. BTW it would look nice next to my LB Camaro.

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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif I love all these cars Steve! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif