4-Door Barracuda
 

I have to admit this guy does some amazing work. Nobody is taking away the amount of detail and craftsmanship put into this project.

The real point is that there's been no single shred of evidence that Chrysler Corporation had any involvement in a 1970 4-door Plymouth Barracuda project, or built any such prototype at any level. Not even as a clay design. Someone is trying to insert an erroneous page into Chrysler E-Body history without proof or verification, that Chrysler built a 4-door Barracuda prototype.

Supposedly it was built in 1969 and later destroyed. This story was recently hatched a few years ago from a corporate mail delivery person (allegedly employed in 1969 at Chrysler World Headquarters but never proven) who recently started writing as an automotive journalist/historian.

The article gave witness of a 4-door Barracuda prototype sitting on a loading dock for three days - but sadly there's nobody at Chrysler who could verify this story. There's no pictures, records, or drawings of such a car in the corporate word of Chrysler engineering to date.

Pretend this story involved an alleged prototype build of lets say, a Mustang. You can bet Kevin Marti and the MCA would be going ape crazy. If it was another brand, you can bet the Pontiac, Chevy, Oldsmobile (or any other body that has historical verification of an automotive brand) would also be concerned about historical correctness.

So what's the story from the Mopar guys?

I'd like to hear something from the Mopar camp on this.

Check out the link:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...d.php?t=303350

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Not a Mopar guy, but love the E-body.
Unbelievable that there was so much hostility, baiting and negative commentary on that forum. Whatever your personal opinion is on if it ever existed or not, why stir all that animosity up again?

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Back in the day one of my old car buddies had a 65 Belvedere 4 door. Started out as a slant six car with push button auto. We got a junkyard 383 out of a police car and after a lot of grunts and groans it came back to life. The car was amazing...the 6 cylinder rear would allow 120mph plus top end with ease. In fact he used to break speedo cables about once a month. The car was a maroon color, cloth bench, low mileage, very clean.

He ended up doing a resto/mod...hood scoop, fender flares, N50 x 15 MT, Cragars, rebuilt the engine, upgraded tranny w/B&amp;M shifter, etc. Wish I had a photo...that car did the greatest burnouts I ever saw [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

if its the same car, and i believe it is,,,my buddy named Steve in St Louis area is building the car. I was there in STL last week, and another friend that used to work with him said he was building a 4 door Cuda..i'm not sure if its for him or a customer...reading the post

and i think i recognize the shop..steve showed me pics of a challenger he built in front of that shop years ago...

you build a car like that for 1 one 2 reasons...because the customer has more money than he knows what to do with or for the challenge..and if its Steve..its the challenge...his first frame off challenger was a test car...to see how he could do it..how the finishes worked out...and figured all the mistakes would be on the first one and hed be more efficient on the next couple dozen...

hes a good dude..but weird..he likes the stuff no one else has seen or done...

as far as the anger etc...its a mopar thing..no one wants to be an outsider nor can they be wrong...lol...bad moderating there...

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Yes it is Dave Walden in St. Louis....Steve is his body man.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

I have no problem with recreations, clones, concepts, tributes, &quot;one-of-none's&quot;, modified's, or &quot;design studies&quot; ...as long as they are presented as such.

Here's the problem.

When this very imaginative and creative &quot;automotive journalist&quot; made the poor decision to write his imaginative story based on recollection of a 4-door Barracuda (while working as a corporate mail delivery person) he must have thought nobody in the world would ever question his flawed account. Now this carefully manufactured history is being touted by the builder as absolute truth.... without a shred of evidence, no pictures, literature, sketches, clay mock ups...nothing.

Supposedly, here's an automobile so confidential and so secretive, yet it was stored outside on a loading dock for three days. A very expensive automotive prototype concept left outdoors, in plain sight, that was never photographed, spoken about, or even heard of until 45 years later....until this journalist wrote his recollection.

An automobile corporation doesn't spend a million of dollars of development money in design studies, clay modeling, and prototype building of a 4-Door Barracuda concept and never take a single photograph of it. It would be a complete waste of time and resources to get this design into the prototype stage with the intent of keeping it top secret throughout the corporation. For what goal?

The favored argument of the builder.... &quot;this was a concept design never released to the public&quot;, makes no sense at all because not a single person from the Chrysler design office during that era remembers this project.

I won't question the craftsmanship because it top notch. But the story behind Chrysler ever making a 4-door prototype is an absolute falsehood. Hell, there's not even a known SKETCH of this thing!

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

just a bunch of speculation...until theres proof..theres no proof...enjoy it for what it is...

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Beavis</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Here's the problem.

When this very imaginative and creative &quot;automotive journalist&quot; made the poor decision to write his imaginative story based on recollection of a 4-door Barracuda (while working as a corporate mail delivery person) he must have thought nobody in the world would ever question his flawed account. Now this carefully manufactured history is being touted by the builder as absolute truth.... without a shred of evidence, no pictures, literature, sketches, clay mock ups...nothing.
</div></div>
Where's the problem? Who cares? If you don't believe it, move on. If it's not real and some unsuspecting buyer happens along and drops a ton of cash on it, it's always been &quot;caveat emptor.&quot; Basically you're saying there is something on the internet that isn't what it's purported to be. WOW, imagine that!

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Sorry, Dave, but I side with Beavis too.

Build a 4-door phantom car? Sure, sounds like fun!

But to create a faux story around it? Game over.

In the end, the whole thread is an ego stroke for the builder. I have no bone to pick with him, but he always enjoys attracting drama, yet gets mad when others start asking questions.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 442w30</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry, Dave, but I side with Beavis too.

Build a 4-door phantom car? Sure, sounds like fun!

But to create a faux story around it? Game over.

In the end, the whole thread is an ego stroke for the builder. I have no bone to pick with him, but he always enjoys attracting drama, yet gets mad when others start asking questions.</div></div>
No disrespect intended, but why read the thread if he's a drama queen? I read a ton of things on the internet that annoy the hell out of me. I just move on. You aren't going to change people so why try and why complain about it unless you're prepared to do something about it? You want to complain about threads, complain about all the ones supporting terrorist activity. That's a much better place to expend energy IMO.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

I think its perfectly fine to complain. Historically correct information is a crucial ingredient to this Hobby.

Without any basis of fact, anybody can say anything, build anything, and claim any type of fascinating BS story they want. Good thing there's many dedicated people in this hobby that are willing to do the necessary research to preserve automotive history.

Continue kicking this unfounded story of a real 4-door Barracuda prototype seen at Chrysler's Headquarters in 1969 down the road, is the same as perpetuating a lie. Some people will see the car and unknowingly believe it was a part of Chryslers historical past - which would be a major dis-service to our hobby.

Look at the efforts regarding the Norwood Pilot Camaro (a story which I followed closely). A tremendous amount of effort was put forth because people in our hobby deemed it important. We should always demand Historically CORRECT information. Research has to be put forth before a person can make any &quot;extraordinary claims&quot; about something.

If the Norwood Pilot Camaro story was just a recollection of one person, without any evidence, every GM related website would have dismissed it as fictional.

It's not up to me to prove anything. The burden of proof falls on the person making such claims. This entire Barracuda project was done with intent to misrepresent ...all the way down to the phony paperwork.


Norwood pilot Camaro links:

http://pilotcarregistry.com/pilot-program-overview.html

http://pilotcarregistry.com/n100001.html

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Back in the mid eighties I helped a friend, Bruce Haar build this 1970 Monte Carlo SS454 using factory photos we had located. Everything was perfect just like GM would have built it with a convertible frame and fabricated convertible rear door panels and Monte rear seat and a real A-body A pillar/windshield. People would always comment at the shows that it was a nice attempt to build what never was until we showed them the factory photos. One of those photos is in some Monte Carlo brochures. I can understand though where the Cuda could be an issue if they are claiming it to replicate a factory prototype.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

That Monte is a car Chevrolet probably could've sold.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

I remember a bunch of years ago, somebody went the other way and took a 4dr 68/69 Chevelle/Malibu and made it a 2 door with SS stuff, was very funky looking as I recall, but well built. To each, his own

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SS427</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Back in the mid eighties I helped a friend, Bruce Haar build this 1970 Monte Carlo SS454 using factory photos we had located. Everything was perfect just like GM would have built it with a convertible frame and fabricated convertible rear door panels and Monte rear seat and a real A-body A pillar/windshield. People would always comment at the shows that it was a nice attempt to build what never was until we showed them the factory photos. One of those photos is in some Monte Carlo brochures. I can understand though where the Cuda could be an issue if they are claiming it to replicate a factory prototype. </div></div>

Yours is a great example of what I was talking about. Thanks.

You obviously had historical data to work from, and enough documented proof and verification to show people Chevrolet was not only just considering the design, but it came close to becoming a production reality. The 4-door Barracuda project has nothing of the sort. Not even a memo.

By the way, the 1970 Monte Carlo convertible was a great looking automotive design! It could've done very well in the market but Chevrolet likely did some focus group work and realized some flawed potential with buyers. Like with any business model, GM product planners failed to make a case for an &quot;extra convertible&quot; in its line-up.

People may have liked it, but with the A-body convertible models already in play namely the Chevelle and Cutlass ringing the majority of 2-door convertible sales, was another two-door convertible model necessary? I think we know how that decision played out from a marketing standpoint.

4-Door Barracuda
 

The need to record findable facts on serious car guy forums is true also the info presented seems logical enough, just all would've felt better w/ a few previous postings...or you'd used your regular user name? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]
Nice job w/ the Monte ragtop Bill, I remember one in a mag somewhere back then...Car Collector?
We've all been waiting for someone to build a '70 Chevelle Post car, heard of a few happening but [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

-
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...9391-image.jpg
-

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That Monte is a car Chevrolet probably could've sold. </div></div>

Build a rag top -- and it will sell ...

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: earntaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That Monte is a car Chevrolet probably could've sold. </div></div>

Build a rag top -- and it will sell ... </div></div>

Not exactly....

General Motors owned the convertible market in 1970. Chevy Chevelle, Olds Cutlass, Pontiac Lemans, and Buick Skylark, were all offered in convertibles. Chevrolet Impala's, Olds Ninety-Eight's, Pontiac Catalina's, and Buick LeSabre's were also available as convertibles. Not to mention the Buick Riviera and Cadillac Eldorado convertibles.

Just because you own the market doesn't always mean an extra convertible model is a good idea - take the case of the 1970 Monte Carlo.

Also in the case of Chrysler. They built competitive Dodge and Plymouth 4-door sedan models for each segment. The A-body (Dart and Valiant. B-Body(Coronet and Satellite). Also C-body (Dodge Monaco/Polara),(Plymouth Fury), Chrysler (Newport/New Yorker/Imperial).

The body style never offered by Chrysler Corporation as 4-door was the E-body (Barracuda/Challenger)... which was exactly in line with the offerings from General Motors(Camaro/Firebird), and Ford (Mustang/Cougar).

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

The Monte was a counterpart to the Grand Prix, also not offered in convert form. The Riv and Eldo were not offered until the early 80's as an attempt to get back into the drop top business. I believe these cars were jobbed out.
Paul

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

You guys should check out my 66 Camaro. It was a prototype that came out before the 67 model year. It was a collaboration with Chrysler. It was built with a 426 Hemi and Hilborn fuel injection.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SgtHawkUSMC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You guys should check out my 66 Camaro. It was a prototype that came out before the 67 model year. It was a collaboration with Chrysler. It was built with a 426 Hemi and Hilborn fuel injection. </div></div>

HeHeHe [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Original GM artwork for 70 Monte Carlo convertible.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

That Monte looks kind of cadillac-ish

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Caseys69</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That Monte looks kind of cadillac-ish </div></div>

You're right. The design looked familiar to me but I couldn't place it. I looked at the rear quarters again, then Bingo! The fender skirts and quarter panel front scallops remind me of the 1971-72 Eldorado Convertible.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Continuing on the theme, the 4-Door Barracuda silhouette looks almost exactly like that of a 1971 B-Body Sedan, which to my eye is the biggest distraction of the build.

I doubt the Chrysler stylists would have come up with such a clumsy roofline if this concept was ever done for real. Chrysler created some of the most beautiful flowing 4-door hardtop rooflines on their C-body Plymouths, and Chryslers of that era. Designers of that era had a full understanding of how to make a hardtop roofline flow - even on 4-door body styles. GM also built some really good examples of fluidly designed 4-door hardtops that didn't look anything like their 4-door Sedan counterparts.

This Barracuda was built around a 1971 4-door Plymouth B-body and unfortunately.... it still looks like a reskined 4-door sedan with shorter deck proportion and Barracuda front and rear design elements.

Sadly this 4-Door Barrcuda Project doesn't represent itself well as a &quot;what-if&quot; concept. Its a flop.

Sure Chrysler had all type of 4-door Hardtops in their fullsize C-body line in 1970, but General Motors was building the nicest most comprehensive line of 4-door hardtops in the industry (with the obvious exception of pony cars)




This photo was found on another Mopar website submitted by ECS.

Source: http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparf...ept-car/page35

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

(continued):

If a 1970's General Motors customer wanted to buy any 4-door hardtop model, there's a good chance they were building them.

In 1970, the General offered 4-door hardtop models such as: Oldsmobile Cutlass and Ninety-eight, Pontiac Lemans and Catalina, Chevrolet Chevelle, Malibu and Impala, Buick Skylark, LeSabre, Electra, and Wildcat. I may have left some out, but this proves a point.

This project can't even be considered a valid &quot;what-if concept&quot; as the builder suggests. A 4-door Barracuda project (based on a sedan or otherwise) would have been cancelled way before it got started....which makes &quot;prototype tribute&quot; such a complete joke.

Are we to believe that Chrysler decided it was a good marketing decision to dilute their first year pony image and create an ugly, old-man style, totally useless, 4-door sedan?

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Beavis, I may be out of line here (in which case I will apologise) but you started this thread asking opinions about this car, and then continue to put forward your argument for it being nonsense. Sooo.... can I ask outright, are you one of the contributors on that other forum thread that had a long-running 'debate' with ECS?

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

For someone that has a family to haul around it's a cool car. It's not easy stuffing 6 year old twins, their booster seats and accessories into the rear of a 2 door coupe.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

deleted my own post

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Canuck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Monte was a counterpart to the Grand Prix, also not offered in convert form. </div></div>

...except in '67. There was a convertible available on the '67 Grand Prix.

K

http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af28...pg?t=1347375676

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robber6910</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For someone that has a family to haul around it's a cool car. It's not easy stuffing 6 year old twins, their booster seats and accessories into the rear of a 2 door coupe. </div></div>

Good point. Sure it has a somewhat bigger rear seat and 2-extra doors so could be <span style="font-style: italic">somewhat</span> useful....

The 4-door trunk looks to be the same size as the two door model. If you've been around Chrysler E-bodies you'll know this tiny trunk and decklid opening won't fit a stroller - or a suitcase! It would barely fit one diaper bag. LOL.

My two cents. The &quot;smart money&quot; would've been to consider a sporty model of Chrysler's 1971 Plymouth B-Body Satellite 4-door. It could've used a 340 engine with dual exhaust, rallye wheels, buckets seats and console, maybee a blacked-out grille, subtle stripes, badging, etc if they really wanted to appeal to the young family market as you suggested. It would likely have been shot down, but 90% cheaper than the tooling to build a 4-door Barracuda.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Preserving factual history for a manufacturer, be it Chrysler, Chevrolet, Ford, etc.. is part of our Hobby and for the future of our hobby!

It would have behooved the owner to obtain more factual proof of the existance of this &quot;4 door cuda&quot; prior to building this car and creating threads on multiple forums. Furthermore, as the &quot;For B Bodies Thread&quot; Beavis linked here. It displayed an owner who cannot accept any discussion &quot;UNLESS&quot; it is someone who agrees with him. It is apparent that anyone who questions the historical validity of this creation gets bullied into submission by this individual. The only thing the owner can come up with is some fly by night story from a reporter. No pictures, no documentation, no other sightings, etc.

In order to preserve history there has to be factual evidence in multiple forms, not just a single story. If not then it is just an urban legend.

I also do not understand why Chrysler would even consider this type of venture. A 4 door cuda with a trunk that has a &quot;spacer saver&quot; tire in it and even with that you cannot get ONE full-size suitcase in the trunk. The roof does not fit proportionally with the body and as others stated that was a pitfall of mixing two body styles.

Another question is where would have this car been built? Logistically, with all the different parameters from the 2 door line it would have been cost/profit prohibitive for this to occur.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Not that it matters one iota, but I don't have an opinion either way on this particular car. However, with several new members seemingly joining to put their arguments across, I can't help wondering if the subject car is perhaps nearing completion and about to debut at a show or auction somewhere, and hence question the motivation to re-open the discussion on this forum.
Let people form their own opinions based on the available information (or lack thereof).

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLP955</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not that it matters one iota, but I don't have an opinion either way on this particular car. However, with several new members seemingly joining to put their arguments across, I can't help wondering if the subject car is perhaps nearing completion and about to debut at a show or auction somewhere, and hence question the motivation to re-open the discussion on this forum.
Let people form their own opinions based on the available information (or lack thereof). </div></div>
This is a forum and I joined to be part of this discussion and in the future others here. As part of a discussion as I thought this thread was, I put in my two cents.

As far as this project I could care less where/when it debuts, sells etc.

I put in my two cents because preserving factual history is very important and not to be tampered with. Just because people want to follow the status quo and not rock the boat per se is not my problem as a newbie. However, I am greatly sure people have opinions when it comes to politics, religion, marriage, etc. but do we shun them because they started a thread on that topic or do we act civilized and have a discussion in a proper format called a FORUM.

Do you think the Builder has acted civilized? Or as a Bully?

Heck, maybe this is the only place where Beavis, who started this thread cannot be bullied into submission. It is very apparent in the &quot;for b bodies&quot; thread thats how the members with differing opinions were treated.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Can both of you please post the rest of your info in your profile?

Unlike other sites, we like to get to know folks by their names. This site is moderated really well-and unlike some of the other sites-this site frowns on arguments spilling over from other sites as well. If the posts were closed on other sites, they were most likely closed for a reason.

Thanks for updating your profile info, PlymouthX and Beavis. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Xplantdad</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Can both of you please post the rest of your info in your profile?

Unlike other sites, we like to get to know folks by their names. This site is moderated really well-and unlike some of the other sites-this site frowns on arguments spilling over from other sites as well. If the posts were closed on other sites, they were most likely closed for a reason.

Thanks for updating your profile info, PlymouthX and Beavis. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] </div></div>

No worries. I have no intent to violate the board rules

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Welcome aboard Jeff...you too Jon C?
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Thanks Jeff! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

I do find this project interesting and I'm not derailing the thread.

I've been involved in lots of things over the years and my hobbies and interests have also evolved. For example automotive history has always been very interesting to me. So if I can please go back to my original point of the 4-door Barracuda (let me apologize in advance)....you'll either have to disagree, agree to disagree, forever hold your peace, or click off this topic I guess.

We all know General Motors had some of the highly designed and most exotic show cars with their Motorama exhibits from 1949 to 1961 (with the highlight being their the New York 1961 cars).

In those days corporate competition between the auto manufacture's designs (mainly from GM) was reaching a pinnacle, which is why Chrysler built a vehicle called the Chrysler Norseman......in Italy of all places.

This was a unique car. Completely styled from a scratch piece of paper by Chrysler in Highland Park, Michigan. Then the drawings and plans were sent from Chrysler to Ghia in Italy to build a running and driving prototype based from Chrysler's spec's

The final car took over 50,000 total man hours and was destined to be revealed by Chrysler to the public in 1956 as an auto show exhibit car. Unfortunately the vehicle in sank in the cargo hold of the Andrea Doria ship near the Northern United States while crossing Atlantic Ocean.

However the history, specifications, and photographs of this top secret car is well known in the Chrysler historical archives. Even some original drawings and documentation of the project have been preserved....all the way back from 1956.

In terms of our hobby there's been many historically significant automobiles (previously determined not to exist) that have been found and accounted for. On the other hand, there's some very well documented cars (like the Norseman and others like the Electric Corvair) that has simply have never been found, or will not be found.

Luckily proof has existed in documents and photographs for some long lost cars (that were previously that not to exist), or were supposedly &quot;disposed of&quot; by the manufacturer. I can go into detail here but I'll save time as my point relates to the 4-door Barracuda.

Over the years much historical data has been found, that has either lead to the search of, or have verified the findings of some of the last so called &quot;unicorns' in our hobby.

Here's the problem....and reason for my post. Right now we just can't call this 4-door Barracuda nothing more than a myth.

There's been no automotive enthusiast or collector to come forward with actual documented proof that a 1970 4-door Barracuda project ever existed in any form.

This is only a relevant subject because the builder, ECS says this car is based on a concept vehicle built by Chrysler in 1969, rather than something he created.

Re: 4-Door Barracuda
 

Which Electric Corvair documented and not found? Electrovair I &amp; II are known and II still exists as well as the Electrovan (Fuel Cell). Is there another?