Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Does anyone know if the silver ZL1 that was at Future Classics (Golden Classics) was one of the real 69 cars or a clone? The car looked pretty well done in the pictures. I also see they still have the Orange RS COPO and the Orange L89 conv was sold. He seems to be dealing more with cars with protect-o-plates now. But then again, that L89 suddenly had a protect-o-plate when it never did before. Curious about the ZL1 though. http://www.futureclassicsnj.com

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

I think this car is a clone it states that it has red standard interior there was only one Zl-1 with red interior and it was garnet red not cortez sliver
Norm

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

I believe this same car was on their site about a year ago,The salesman had told me the car was just sold and showed me some pitures(Same car/pics). It was posted on their site at the time as being sold for 60k,At that price I would say Clone also.

-Frank

[Edited by CopoCrunkus (03-14-2002 at 03:44 PM).]

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

site now shows it as SOLD

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Has everyone seen this regarding Future Classics?

http://www.cars-on-line.com/68chev5581.html

Buyer Beware of this dealer!

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Hello everyone,

I just visited Future Classics about three weeks ago. As far as the orange L-89, it wasn't sold at the time. I glanced over the car quite quickly and decided to check for one thing. I felt my way around the left rear frame rail looking for the welded dual exhaust plate. I could not find one!! I then went over to see the 69 Z-28 RS (asking over $38,000). I checked for the same thing. No plate. I did see the silver ZL-1 about three or four months ago. It was a nice looking car. Maybe it's my imagination, but at the time, the majority of GM cowl tags on the high-end Camaros looked brand new. I even made the comment to my wife who was standing beside me at the time. I'm not saying that they weren't real, it merely appeared unusually clean along with some others. The gentleman who came over to help me while looking at the car, offered to show me a factory original SS BB 69 that was in the paint shop and was also for sale. After looking at the factory (X11 code) BB, I rushed out the doors without looking back.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

As someone who bought a fake L-48 69 SS in 1997. I learned a valuable lesson. Fraud and dishonesty is rampant in this hobby. Especially in consignment dealerships were the liability does not fall on the dealer.
If you don't bring someone like Mr. Cuneen
or Mr. MacNiesh into the picture you could be in trouble. You have people making new cowl tags new protect-o-plates, dealer m.s.o.'s and some people go so far as to make the paperwork even look old. Just be careful. Joel ILL. Camaro Club

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

I'm just curious to know what makes you guys "so sure" that the L89 convertable is a clone.
I couldn't tell anything from the photos. All I know is what has been written about this car in the past. It has some documentation so what gives this car away? Did someone get burned by this car before?

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Thanks for the correction Kurt concerning convertibles. I never would have known had you not mentioned it. Many Thanks, Paul

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Paul,
Car is a clone / fake, though not for that reason. https://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

[Edited by Kurt S (03-18-2002 at 10:46 PM).]

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

The history of the car is known. It was a 327 car. Mileage is real.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

My "new to me" 1969 Van Nuys L78 Rag Top Camaro does have the bracket bolted to the frame rail but with no reinforcement plate , just as Kurt stated.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Looks like the L89 convertable has gone back into hiding again.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

From what I have heard the car was sold at the Atlantic City show for $79K. I have also been told the new owner is now aware that it was a 327ci 210 hp powerglide. I would expect some sort of litigation shortly.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

car sold at atlantic city for 69.500.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

These clones are really taking some players out of the market. It almost makes me think we need to build a clone database somewhere to help new buyers out. Not to beat down the clones, but to help identify them for what they are. There are probably more 69 Yenko clones than real 69 Yenkos and we all know that there has to be at least 40,000 69 Z28's out there now too. The thing about that L89 conv is that it never had any documentation when it was for sale the past 2 years and then it suddenly shows up for sale with an original protect-o-plate! Is there any way to stop this stuff?

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Yes, quit buying the reproduction trim tags and protecto plates that are on the market and run these guys out of business. As long as the hobby supports the making of these items then the clones/fakes are going to get better. The government needs to step in as to me there is no way a repro POP should be allowed to be made. It contains the VIN of the vehicle and the last time I checked that was illegal to duplicate anything with the vin. That is why the restoration vendors do not have the little blue decal for the drivers door on 70 and up vehicles that had the vin typed on it. About 12 years ago the fed's confinscated all of the parts suppliers/vendors inventory of those decals and they have not been for sale since. I have heard of some "black market" ones available but they are the wrong color and the lettering is the wrong font...........RatPack...................

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

I don't think there is any way to stop this stuff. The only way to protect yourself is to do the research on a rare vehicle and contact prior owners. I go back to the 1967 L89 Corvette that a dealer sold last summer. The car was in my name for seven years and I was never contacted about the car. When I saw this car nationally advertised I anticipated a number of calls to me. My phone never rang. Another owner here in Austin was never contacted about the car either.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Paul,You were offered to go see a Factory 69 SS BB in the paint shop and you didn't go but you were able to see the trim tag anyway? WOW how did you do that! The only 69 RS Z28 i saw was a beautiful Lemans Blue one that sold for $31.The Silver ZL1 Clone has not been there for about a Year! It is now in California.As Kurt stated about the L89 Conv you did not know what you were looking for.The only car that i was offered to see was a COPO Tuxedo Black 3 owner car that is being restored.It has a X11 Code.Sonds like your a little deep into your knee deep Projects!

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

I had seen that L89 Convertible at the Atlantic City Auction too. I asked the owner about the car, since it was such low miles. He stated that he had Future research the car because he was getting many questions about the authenticity of it. They had contacted all the parties that were supposed to have built the car. Not one of them had any information on the car and they made no claims to the vehicle. Is this all rumor then? How far can we go to prove a car is a clone? If the car was a built car, and the shop does not claim to ever have the car, and none of the previous owners know, then where can we go? It just seams to be hearsay or rumors. No one is coming forward to say, "Yes, it was my car, and yes it is a clone." The person who bought the car for $69,500 or what ever the auction sale was, bought it at an auction, which is AS/IS. The actual owner of the car had brought it to the auction to sell it. If the buyer thought he paid "too much" after the fact, then that is his fault and not the fault of the seller. No one forced him to bid that price, he did it under his own will. It is just as if we were buying a car from Ebay with the exception that he actually had seen the car and he felt the car was worth it.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

But if that L89 conv has a fake protect-o-plate, then isn't that now fraudulent? Then the car is being intentionally misrepresented. I personally think it's a great car that was built really well, but it doesn't appear that it is a genuine L89 car.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

I think the only thing that is fraudulent is having to do with the VIN, be it right or wrong.

I don't really see the goverment getting involved with the details like the drive train in a car as to the POP. It is up to the buyer to find out the facts himself before making a purchase.

As long as all these cars are bringing the kind of money they are demanding from the seller, be prepared to see lots more of this.
I predict we will see allot of more NEW COPO's, and all the big block Camaros come into the market. The buyers are out there whating to purchase these type of cars. As long as they are there, so will be the clones. I predict the clones will get even better as time goes on and make it almost impossable to tell the difference. As the price on these cars increases, it makes it easier to invest the money to make a clone.

The only way to hold this down is to start a VIN list for people to go to.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Dear CamaroKing,

I just spent over an hour and a half typing an extremely nasty response to your post directed at me. I've decided not to post it, but rather, to collect my thoughts and clear this up. I hope that you too can learn something from both our actions. I took the time to read over my reply very carefully. Here's what I came up with: I was wrong about the date that I went to see the ZL-1. It was in no way an intentional mistake. I have come to the conclusion that I have a terrible sense of time and how fast it passes. My observation of the car and the tags has not changed. I did see the orange SS big-block in the paint shop at the same time I saw the ZL-1. My point was to show that the car was being offered as a real SS big-block even though the numbers were incorrect (X-11 code on the tag). As far as the black Z-28 RS on the showroom floor. I did see that 3-4 weeks ago. It was being offered at $38,900. I looked it over briefly and came to the conclusion that for the price, the workmanship on the resto was very poor for such a high asking price and I also doubted the car as being a true Z (my opinion) which remains the same as in the previous post. If it wasn't there when you visited, it must have been sold. You are correct when you stated that I did not know what to look for on the convertible. Kurt mentioned that earlier in the post. Thank You, I learned something new. As for the black COPO you speak of, it wasn't there when I visited, but then again you never stated when you were there. I did however see a 69 Yenko clone (yellow/black) for $32,000 and change. That has probably been sold as well. If I seems as though I am a bit biased at times towards this specific dealer and the cars being sold, it may be because I myself have seen and heard (in person) some of the BS. I won't get into it, but I am aware of it. I still however like to visit, just to glance over the cars and maybe even do a little daydreaming. I do not agree with the practice, but will leave it to the authorities to do the right thing. I must admit, but since becoming a new member on this site (yesterday), I can't seem to stop thinking about just how nasty people can really be towards people they don't even know. I've been on Camaros.net for quite some time now and have never been approached this way. I do all I can to help the fellow enthusiast. I might not have a Yenko or Baldwin and I might not be able to decode tags and broadcast sheets in a single glance, but I'm not some guy that pretends that he has a barn full of priceless muscle and knows everything about them. I currently own three 69 Camaros and have just finished my first resto-upgrade. I spent ten years on my first resto and have the gray hair,empty wallet, burnt eardrum (from using the torches), metal slivers in the eye (grinder),broken finger (lifting the body), a nervous breakdown (rescued by Prozac) and a marriage that was pressed to the outermost limits possible and even to this day (JUST TO NAME A FEW). I've earned my right to join the devoted Camaro owners group. I will make mistakes like most other people too. This will be the first year that I can attend car shows with a finished product and hopefully meet up with some of you and learn some more about my favorite hobby. Thanks for the warm welcome, Paul

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Welcome Paul,will you share your Prozac?

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Paul, welcome to the site and thanks for gathering your thoughts before responding. Your a better man for it!
Peter

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Ownership history is a critical piece to determining a cars pedigree. The more research you do, the better the picture you get of the car.
The L89 convert was done very well, and would fool most knowlegeable collectors. I forwarded the information I knew, with the owners name who paid to have the car cloned and of the shop that did the work to Future Classics , but they were unable to verify the information.

I was looking to purchase an L89 coupe a few years ago, but before I made the deal I searched and found the second owner. What was being sold as an original drive train car, was not because the second owner blew a hole in the side of the block in 1977 and replaced it.

[Edited by paceme (03-19-2002 at 04:10 PM).]

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

How exactly does one burn an eardrum with a torch? Maybe the wife was holding the torch at the time?

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

This dealer seems to be selling tons of cars, regardless of his reputation on the web. As time passes and they change hands a few times who will remember where they actually came from. I wonder who is buying all of these cars? I would think anyone in the hobby would know about this site as well as all of the other literature on how to identify certain models. I have been living vicariously through everyone here and at camaros.net while I save for my Camaro. I feel I have learned enough to select a ligit car, however I will be sure to ask for loads of help when that day comes.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Umm, I did the ear burn trick once. Was blowing out an exhaust manifolt on a car so I could put a new bolt in. One spark went in my ear. That hurt, as did the bigger one that went down my sleeve........ https://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif
How to exit underneath a car very quickly.

Welcome Paul!

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Kurt, I did the same thing Mig welding an exhaust. The spark bounced off my neck and down the eardrum an made a Loud sizzle. I came flyin outta there like an inchworm on fire. Ive worn earplugs when welding ever since. Tim.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Kurt,
That'll learn ya, stop welding on those dual exhaust plates to all those clones you making and you won't have these problems https://www.yenko.net/ubb/smilies/images/icons/smile.gif

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Welcome Paul,
I know all about mistakes,hell I make one almost every day.My Dad used to tell me there were only two kinds of people that don't make mistakes and that is a person that don't do nothing and a liar.He was right most of the time! I think you will find some very nice people on this site that can be very helpful,and again you might run across one from time to time you don't agree with.Sometimes I just sit back and laugh at some of the entries.It must be the prozac.Now I don't want anybody to think that I am calling anyone a liar,or calling anyone lazy for that is not the case.I am just stating an old saying from my Dad.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Paul, Next time at Future Classics could you check out the Yellow 70 Camaro L-78 and look at the tach redline and max......and whatever else you glean as authentic or NOT....and the asking price...Chuck/seattle

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Chuck, The trim tag on that yellow L-78 car is held on with sheetmetal screws. Saw it at Atlantic City auction. Need I say more? KP

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Hi Everyone,

I thank you for the welcomes and kind replies. As for the torch, it was much like KURT and TIM F's story. Working under the car cutting the exhaust. I hear a pop, see a piece of molten metal flying off and hear a loud hiss in my ear. Next thing I recall is lying in the middle of my kitchen floor on my side with the hospital on the telephone, feeling as though I was going to throw up every internal organ I owned. Hi STEFANO!! I haven't had a real need for the Prozac in about four to five years, but after today, it might not be such a bad idea to keep a couple of spare bottles around the house. I'll check on a group discount for us. Thanks for the kind words COPO PETE and BBIGG BLOCK 396, I do feel much better and am grateful for your kindness and understanding. As for CAMARORUSS (Chuck in Seattle). I would normally be more than happy to take the trip over there to look at the car for you, but I think I should stay away from convertibles, ZL-1's and second generations for now. Hope you understand. As for DENIS with the remark about my wife. I think that's what she daydreams about when we're looking the cars over at classics. Once again, I Sincerely thank you all for the welcomes and kind words, Paul

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

KP, What are you saying? The factory didn't use sheetmetal screws on the trim tags? The particular car you are talking about happens to have all of it's interior trim pieces riveted on.

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Paul,All i was trying to say is that you were throwing all these negative things out there about the dealer and i have been there recently and those things did not seem true.The Black Z28 was not even an RS and has been sold for $36 which may be a little high but Black is a rare color with houndstooth as well.Everyone bashes the L89 Conv. but the car still was sold for $69 in change in Atlantic City and there were 3 guys bidding it all the way up.In my past visits i was never misled and nothing looked bogus to me.The silver ZL1 i saw about a year ago and it was shown to me as a Clone and it was a top notch car priced at $60k.It was sold to Calif. i heard.I didn't mean to come off like that but you have just come on to this board and you were bashing and that stuff should stop.We all no it is buyer beware in anything we do and should take our proper percautions! Thanks Rob!

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Hey K Pascoe,You had a Killer 67 RS/SS Car that came from Future Classics last year at the Atlantic City Show.Car was supposed to have been restored by Bob at Camaro Specialties in NY.How did that happen?

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

As far as Future Classics sooner or later some one WILL shut them down its NOT bashing
its getting the word out DO NOT BUY A CAR FROM THEM

Re: Silver ZL1 at Future Classics?
 

Hi Rob,

To be completely honest, I found the L-89 to be absolutely gorgeous and my favorite color combo to boot. It was a very well restored car. That's why I said nothing about the workmanship involved in the resto. The car was beautiful. The Z-28 I saw on the showroom floor did not have a houdstooth interior, it had a standard interior and was not worth the asking price to me. I have however seen quite a few black Z's on his floors, both RS's and not. They come and go as quickly as you and I are talking despite what I feel to be GOD awful high prices. Everytime I walk in the door, I am very skeptical as to the cars I see. I am this way because I've been involved in one instance myself and have had the displeasure of seeing cars that are not real SS's being offered as real SS's. This is something I know about because I own two SuperSport Rally Sports. One big-block and one small block (originally). I've also spent more than enough time in and under them to know what a good resto is and isn't. I can honestly say that out of all the Camaros I've seen on his lot, very few have really peeked my interest. The siver ZL-1 was one that peaked my interest. I found the car to be beautiful and restored in a fashion that was becoming of a car of it's status. I didn't like the fact that a few of the Camaros at that time had engine compartments that were painted in one color black and cowl tags that looked as though they had a fresh coating of Krylon semi-flat black. It made me downright uncomfortable to say the least and skeptical too. After having the orange SS shown to me way back when and being told by the salesman that it was a factory big-block, Yes, once again I remain skeptical because I have been on the floor and talked to in person. As for the tags, I never said that it was the owners of the dealerhip that were responsible. For all I know, it might be the people who sell the cars to the dealer, inorder to get top dollar for their cars. I often put myself in the owners position and ask myself what I could do to prevent this from happening if it was indeed the peoples greed and foul play. Well, I would hire someone or learn the facts needed to purchase a correct car. If I bought a clone, I would personally sell it as one. If I buy a car that is stated as being something that it isn't, shame on me and shame on the seller if he or she was aware of it. If I was to purchase my second car for top dollar and it wasn't what it was stated to be, shame on me!! I would not however resell it as the real thing. This is where I would mark the line. I would chalk it up as an expensive lesson and do my best to prevent it from happening again. I would tend to think that after this much bologne with clones and such, the dealers and customers would be that much more skeptical about the things that they purchase. Well, from what I read on the internet, it doesn't appear so. I don't believe it will considering the amount of money involved. Let's be realsistic about this, I've heard and talked to more than one person about questionable cars on the lot. I have no doubts as to the possible validity of the complaints. I'm just lucky enough to be one of the many that has not had the money in pocket to go out and purchase at times. It could have been me at the lawyers office. I am biased and I have no problem with people knowing it. ROB, I really want to thank you for the reply to straighten things out. I understand your actions much better than I did before and I hope you understand mine. All is well!! Sincerely sorry for any misunderstandings, Paul