Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

The big question is: Is it acceptable in the collector car world to take a collector car that has the back half of the body extremely damaged by rust or previously cut up, to rebodie the car using the original frame and other componants? I have heard conflicting ideas on this and would like to get the opinions of the serious collectors on this site. Also, is it correct in thinking that an original car is just that, "original" with nothing removed or replaced, and a "correct" car is a car that has one or many major componants replaced with correct application and date coded parts? Lets here some thoughts on this. Thanks, Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

No rebody is acceptable. I believe it is better to list the car as 'gone' rather than rebody it. If a major drivetrain item is replaced or restamped, it is no longer original drivetrain - aka; matching numbers. If an item is replaced with a properly dated, correct casting etc.... I guess you could call it 'Correct Drivetrain', but I'm not sure on that. This is subjective of course, some people are ok with switching bodies and hitting blocks, and I know it happens more times than most people are aware, but it's just not for me.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Marlin, This is what I am looking for, honest opinions from knowledgable people in this field, by the way, I am working on both the Dik Watson Novas, the one I used to own and the Forrest Green one you told me about. I will let you know if I have any success in aquiring one or both. Thanks, Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Strange
But rebody car is <font color="blue">acceptable </font color> for me.
I have no problem with rebody (resurect)
I have more probleme with cloning. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
Many many Musclecar is rebody. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Tampering with a VIN,(removal,reinstalation without the approval, supervision and documentation by ,the appropriate regulatory authority, usually State Police)is a Felony.

Even "just" the posession of VIN securing Rosette Rivets is a Felony. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Stefano, Devils advocate here, I tend to agree with you but as to your last post, how many first generation Camaros have had the rusted dash replaced with the VIN reattached with rivits available through Hemmings. Is every Camaro with a new dash supposed to be assigned a assemblers title because the VIN has been tampered with? Food for thought. Thanks, Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

That which is allowed by law and that which people may or may not do can be two completely different situations.

I have seen the rust repair of a dash as you mention handled by "supervision" and did not require a retitle or retag and all other Vins were also verified.

FYI, there was and is an ongoing "Sting" opperation where people are/were buying advertised illegal items. Some of these unsuspecting buyers have been arrested and convicted.

It is not Illegal however to purchase, change, make up Trim tags and info nor to posess and use the correct Rivets used on GM trim tags.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

In my opinion, a re-body is no longer the same car. It is unacceptable. A car missing the original factory installed engine is not "original" drivetrain. An original engine, but replaced transmission I would consider "original" though. It is the engine that goes with the body that determines an original car. If the body is rusted out and you have to replace ever body panel, floors, trunk, etc., but the hidden VIN(s) is still in place and untouched then the car is original restored in my opinion. A car with a correct drivetrain is just that, a car with another drivetrain. A lot of classic car dealers will call a car with a correct drivetrain "matching numbers" when it isn't. That's done to enhance the value. A 69 Camaro X77 car with a DZ302 that doesn't match the VIN is not original, but it is as close as you can get, but it's not matching numbers. This is all obviously my opinion and I hate when someone misrepresents a car just to get me to come look at it.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Full of felony in this world.
This is not a world for Kid. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
a 71* A-Body Plymouth run in my town with a A-Body Dodge VIN
with no problem with the police. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Street racing is illªgal but Musclecars was made for street racing. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Jeff, Interesting point. I am troubled by the fact that a few years ago the judges at Bloomingtons Corvette show decided that it was acceptable to restamp a vin into an engine block as long as casting and date codes were correct and the correct stamps used in which a company in Texas leases them out for that reason. This is a subject in which there are opinions on both sides and there probebly will never be a unanimous opinion. Interesting in another post here about legal vs illegal, street racing is illegal, yet I have a document here from Ford Motor Company from 1969 which was a marketing stragegy for muscle cars, it goes into detail on how to market and promote street racing as Ford found by survey it encompassed 80% of their high performance market. How can a transmission which carries a VIN be replaced and be acceptable, yet replacing an engine that carries the same VIN not be acceptable? In my mind the only true original cars are those which have never had anything replaced with the exception of normal maintenance items such as belts, hoses, etc. When a car is restored, repainted with new weatherstips, etc, etc, is the car still original or is it an restored original? At what point does a car go from being original to being correct? I would think that a numbers matching car is just that, a car that has the original drivetrain componants wearing the original, not restamped VIN's. On the Yenko cars, when they are repainted and the stripes are replaced with aftermarket, is the car still original? In this day and age with the rarity and value of these cars, and considering all the fakes being built, the top people in this hobby should get together and come up with a survey/questioneer that asks these questions and more that the results can be used to define some guidelines and boundries for everyone to follow that will define original, correct, acceptable, and non-acceptable. The art world has similar guidelines that were defined due to the interest in the hobby and the growing rarity and value. The collector car world needs something similar to go by which answers these questions and more, something that will bring and end to the speculation and arguments once and for all, a self policeing set of rules, guidelines, or laws so to speak which govern the hobby. Just one confused collecters opinion. Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Gentlemen, These are all tough questions. When I was restoring my 1969 Z/28,I tried to be as careful as I could on my restoration parts. The car has the original trans. and rear. The motor is not original to the car. It is a date coded CORRECT (misleading word) 302. All body panels that were replaced were replaced with used sheetmetal, except the quarters.(NOS) The interior is original except the dash pad and carpets. I would NOT in any way, call this car original. That word original to me means: Original to this car only! The only thing that I do say is that the block and sheetmetal used is all vintage date coded, and or, came on a 1969 camaro originally. Although I feel, that my car is very nicely done, it can not command the price of a true survivor car that has been restored, or partially restored with all its original parts intact. I wonder how many big dollar cars are actually restored with repro sheetmetal and other foreign items? If the vin tag and the frame rails are the only things used in the resto, it almost becomes a kit car. It really is only original once from the factory. Anybody can say numbers matching, but is it original to that car? This is why true original cars are SO hard to come by, and really do command a better price. Sam

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

The collector car world. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

The Zl1 No (1) is not restored to day one condition
It is restored to Drag Racing History condition (Gibb/Harrell)
And probably the owner of the ZL1 (1) not trade this ZL1 for
a full original restored ZL1.

Restored original History VS original restored.

Just a remark about the correct originality and value $$$$.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

COPO9566.
I completly agree with you on that one. I would much rather have the Harrell ZL-1 as any, I am sure it is worth more than most if not all, I am sure that Bill would agree. That particular car however is not the norm for what applies to most. Somehow everyone needs to find a way to come together on these questions and differences, that would make it a more difficult world for the people building bogus cars, right now there is such a gray area on what is original, what is correct, what is acceptable and whats not... it leaves too many open doors for the people who only care about MONEY to slip through. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...together we stand, divided we fall... This site would be the perfect place for the serious car collectors to come together and adopt a policy that stands true and accepted by those who stand the most to lose. Will GM ever release the records? I hope so, but I am not holding my breath. In the meantime it is up to the serious collectors to agree on these issues. Thanks, Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I'm with Marlin and Stefano on this one...and you can bet that if I ever bought a rebodied car and found out about it, whomever sold it to me would be getting a visit from the authorities [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

As for the COPO advertised elswhere on the site, the owner will no doubt be held responsible for that rebody at some point in the future should the car be sold. It makes no difference whether the rebody was disclosed or not to a buyer, the act is still illegal and so is owning a rebodied car that has not had a MOT issued VIN. Should that car head State-side and get inspected at the border, it would likely be confiscated. Luckily, the car is well known up here and would quickly be recognized at a cruise night or car show. I will say for whatever it is worth, it is refreshing that the owner is admitting it is rebodied, however that is a very dangerous and potentially expensive statement to make. If I were him, I'd keep the car and enjoy it for what it is.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Truly original would only be an unrestored survivor car. Then you can use the term original to mean what the car was ordered as, ie a SS350. If the car doesn't have any codes on the trim tag or documentation to prove it's really an SS350, then you need to have the original engine to prove it, the trans won't prove it. That's why I would consider a car with the VIN matching engine original even if the trans was gone. Obviously the term means different things to everyone. You could say a 69 Yenko isn't original because the Yenko stripes were not on the car when the car was delivered. But a re-body is definitely no longer the same vehicle let alone original. We'll never get everyone to agree on what the different terms mean and that's what can lead to problems when you're dealing with a high dollar car.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

So what would be the correct action if you had a Yenko Chevelle (for arguments sake) with a body that was beyond repair? The car would be worth saving due to its heritage but if you put on a different body that was in good shape it would be illegal and dishonest? Would the correct way to do it to replace every panel? If you save the firewall but replace everything else does it still have its 'original body'?

Is it actually illegal to put a different body onto a car? If so..why? And then I would ask again... it would be legal to change every panel but illegal to rebody? Where is the legal distinction between 'rebody' and 'replacing body panels'?

I find it interesting to read about the various Bugatti's that go up for auction. Some of them have had almost every major component replaced, albiet with parts from other original Bugattis, and are still called original. The ones that command the highest prices (often 50 to 100% more) are the ones that truely are original.

I wonder if that divergence will become more pronounced in the super car market. As of now, as far as I can see, it doesnt seem truely original cars command all that much higher prices.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Insane,
Your point is a valid one. This is where I had hoped this would go. I am not in favor of placing a new body to a car, however, I am trying to decide the logic in what is going on in the collector car world as of now. In an earlier post I asked a similar question, where does one draw the line? Certainly every panel on these cars can be purchased new or used, if everything other then the firewall, which carries the stamped numbers is replaced, is that then acceptable for the car to be a correctly restored original? The legal issue revolves around the alteration of any of the VIN numbers stamped into the body. In order to change the body the numbers would have to be inserted or restamped into the replacment body. As someone stated in an earlier post that would be legal if done under the supervision of law enforcement, so givin that, would a rebody be accepted in the collector car world if the car forever after carried a statement from law enforcement as to the numbers being transfered under the watchful eye of law enforcement? One of the reasons I started this post is I have a 69 pace car I bought out of Canada a few years ago that is a complete numbers matching unmolested original car, with complete history and Canadian documentation, the dilema is I have never seen a more rusted Camaro. I purchased every piece of sheet metal for the car with the exception of the cowl and firewall. Complete new floor, both quarters, two complete doors, complete trunk floor, shock towers, rear tail light panel, inner and outer wheel houses, and complete new GM dash. I have looked at this project for two years and never started it due to the fact I am at a loss as what to do. This is a original numbers matching car with documentation and history. Would the person I sold this car to be happier knowing he had a pieced together car(no matter how well its done they are never the same), or would he be happier knowing the back body shell was replaced with, say an Arizona body? Would the accepted way to be to take a perfect body and reattach the complete cowl and firewall off the original car? Is that acceptable? Back when these cars were new it wasnt unheard of to replace a complete back half of a car when totaled, they were usually cut across the floor at the rear of the rocker panel and cut right at the top of the A-Piller and sectioned together. If someone bought a collector car today and found out that had been 30 years ago, would the car then be no good? It was even a easier repair on a convertible as it was one cut across the floor right behind the drivers seats. Many were done that way, I happen to know of one very nice COPO today that had that same repair many years ago. Anybody here want to be the guy that tells him his car is no good? I for one dont want to repair the pace car in such a way that even if I told the buyer, suppose he sells the car a few years later and doesnt tell that owner, he finds out down the road and it all comes back to haunt me with civil charges and possibly criminal if I had not done the changeover under the eye of law enforement. The other possibility? Throw a perfectly original numbers matching pace car in the scrap yard and loose another piece of history? I dont think that idea would set well with anyone who is into the preservation of the history of these cars. I would be more than happy to email photos of this car to anyone for ideas and suggestions. If any of the members here were to find one of the missing ZL-1 cars that had been t-boned so bad there would be no fixing the body, but it had an all original numbers matching drivetrain with documentation, would you part the car out, or quietly go into your shop and do whatever is neccessary to fix the car. You get one with a badly bent subframe and nobody has a problem with bolting on a new subframe. I have a bigger problem with somone takes a plain jane Z-28 and adding a bunch of options and claiming as original, How would most you members rate your cars that have been restored, 30, 40, 50 percent original componants? I previously owned one of the Yenko deuce cars, I know the whereabouts of the rear end and original carburator , so when it is done it will no doubt have a restamped rear housing and carburator, when that rear end is stamped as many are, is there a noticable difference in that vs restamping the body? I would feel safe in guessing that 30 percent of the current cars in this field have had some point of the drivetrain restamped, it that legal or ethical? We all know that as these cars become older and harder to find that have more extensive deteriation, more and more of this practice will continue. This is why I believe some agreed upon guidelines should be adopted before it gets anymore out of hand. More food for thought. Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Motown, I think you're stuck playing the waiting game right now. This issue has come up over at www.Camaros.net in a discussion about a numbers matching 68 SS396 that has a rotted out body and the guy bought a clean 6 cyl car to swap all the components. You could buy a clean AZ car, cut your firewall and re-attach it and then proceed to restore it as the Pace Car. You can tell the guy you sell it to and he accepts it. He sells it to someone else and mentions it. Then that guy lists it for sale as all original and the next buyer is the one who buys a re-bodied car without knowing it. As great as some of these rare performance cars are, when they expire, they should cease to exist. Paperwork and documentation on a destroyed musclecar can help gather information for databases and research. The only good reason I can think of to try and resurrect a car that is gone would be for the historical value if no others like it exist. It would have to be 1 of x made where x is less than 10 ever made. I'll use the 1969 TA conv as an example. To me, the body shell is the car that goes with the VIN/Title. You change shells, and you no longer have the same car. You can change pieces on the shell to restore it back to it's former condition, but if you cut the shell in half, it's no longer the same car. And I'll add that there was a Challenger TA at the shop my car is at and it was a back-halved car. The owner had no idea until the body was stripped down. He was speechless. This is my point of view.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I knew some one that had bought a wrecked 68 1/2 428cobrajet mustang,car was totaled.he cut the vins and surroung metal out and rewelded it to another car(Ithink vin was under the D.S.fender or something)I wonder what it makes that car out tobe ???

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

The hobby, and probably the law accepts the replacement of all sheetmetal, as long as the VIN area is unmodified. You can cut out and replace everything but that little portion around the VIN, and it's OK. But cut out the little portion of the VIN, and put it on another car, and you are a crook.

Said another way, If you clap by moving the right hand into the left it is OK. But don't clap by moving the left hand into the right!!

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Very interesting anology, Hmmmm, wouldnt be the first time I had the clap.... just kidding! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

We realy only need full disclosure to identify crooks. That is where the rubber meets the road IMO. The crooks are those that knowingly do not provide full acurate disclosure of the cars specifics in order to mislead a buyer.

Move the VIN and you are a crook, end of story. There is no legitimate reason to move a VIN to a different body. Moving a VIN is a LOT easier than a full resto so it just ain't gonna ever be that easy. If it were acceptable, nobody would restore a worn out car. Tag switch would be too easy.

We can get pretty hung up on "original" but in reality we endeavour to make our cars "look" a certain way, but they will never truly be "original" again, we just try to make them LOOK and run that way.

"Repainted" is just as "un-original" as "restamped". [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] (OH BOY, I actualy got enough courage to finaly say it). It is your car, do what ever makes you happy but don't lie about it.

Go ahead, type away!

-Mark.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I have a question that has buged me for a while now.

I had a 1979 Corvette for about 3 years that I sold in 3/01. The actual VIN plate was coroded and actually eaten away in some spots. The car was pretty original but Corvettes in that late 70's era tended to rust in the pilar area where the vin tag was located due to water or moisture that would have settled in that area. That is how I bought the car and that is how I sold it. The title, owner history, car, and #'s were perfect otherwise. What could I have done in this situation?

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

If it's rotten,cut it out and replace it.If it's missing,find a replacement.If it's bent,straighten it.If it can be saved,by all means restore it.If it's dead.....plant it! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] If you need to switch a body you are restoring the wrong car.You are,without a doubt,going to deceive someone sometime.You will always know your cars is not what it appears.If you feel fine with duping yourself into believing this is the same car,so be it.You have to live with the legal and moral trouble to follow.I have seen several cars that are national show winners,taken rolls of film,only to find out it is a rebody. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] Is it a nice car? Sure, I would have loved to own it.But now, after all the smoke and mirrors, I see the car in a different light.I was fooled into believing the history,resto,and validity of everything around it.To me there is something special about the real deal,battle scars and all.Hell,I love beaters,character dents,rot everywhere,and the old peace sign on the rear bumper.I just love cars,nothing more or less.I am not into the hobby for financial reasons.I don't see the reason for a rebody other than money.I know they are out there,we just need to be wiser because of them.Remember,bury the dead.They have earned it.... [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Steve

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Well Said! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

What if the car is one worth saving? What if the car was a Motion Camaro, (for example) Should it be thought of too far gone to restore or should it be saved?

Almost every Ferrari ever made is still on the road. This of course is due to the value of the cars. Now there are instances where almost the entire car has been recreated. At what point is the car a replica or clone and not original?

Take a look at the 1949 Ferrari Tipo 166 for an example:

http://www.symbolicmotors.com/framesets/page2.html

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

If a car is worth saving then save it. Just don't rebody the car to "save it" because in reality you buried the car you were trying to "save"!

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

the car that the vin# were welded to was also in need of resto,just wasn't cut in two by a pole/tree,this guy is a big ford guy and was doing every thing back to orginal(paint lines on susp,overspray)I know he had been working on it for 4 years last time I saw him(that was 8 years ago) it might not even be done now ,he wasn't building it to sell.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Hopefully this pic will post: In my town ( Historic ) people with houses on the National Historical Registry are not allowed to tear the house down no matter how bad it is. The theory I suspect is that the person who owns the house is but a temporary guardian and the history of the house will exist long after the owner is gone. All the time I find these houses being restored but all that really remains are the threshold and fireplace footing..Did Paul Revere still die in that same house? Went to check out the USS Constitution this summer...20% of the wood is original.

Take this car as a great example. By all accounts it is the backup 67 Indy Pacecar..It makes the titanic look solid. It is in my eyes a car worth saving absolutely..What may I ask are the opinions of you guys.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

The car does not have an engine or trans but does have the correct rear

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I'm working pesently on a Jeep CJ7 with a Fiberglass Tubb
I'm moving the VIN of the orginal metal body to the fiberglass body [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
This is not a collector car.But the move is the same.
This is a legitimate reason [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
This is acceptable or it is unacceptable
Or this is a felony.

Eh
for a girl a rebody is acceptable or unaceptable

just kidding! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Just for the record, I believe a car with replaced quarters is no longer an original car. We're not talking about original, but rather where acceptable practice stops, and unacceptable practice begins.

There is no accepted limitation to how much of a car can be replaced. The hobby says it's OK to replace the dash, where the VIN is located. Some say cut out and reweld the area around the VIN tag to the new dash panel. Same goes for the hidden partial VIN areas. It's OK to replace every other piece of the car, one piece or one "assembly" at a time.

So taken to the extreme, you have an original driveline Yenko, that was so rusty, that when you wrecked it, you destroyed every piece of sheet metal.

You pull the engine, tranny, and rear and put them aside.
Then you build a fixture to support the VIN tag area, and the two partial VIN stamp areas, and weld them to the fixture. You then cut away all the bad stuff, leaving only the three VIN areas suspended in thin air. Now you take a donor car position it where the original one was, cut out the three VIN areas, and weld the original ones in, just as you would if you were changing the dash panel, or firewall.

So, in the example above, we have not rebodied the car, we have replaced one large "assembly" [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

If that "assembly" is too big to be considered acceptable practice, and one piece at a time (or some lesser assembly) is considered acceptable, where's the line?

If you think I'm being rediculous, then I've made my point.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I think you made your point.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

One important note is that the Bloomington Judges did not approve restamped engines nor did NCRS. This misconception has been stated a number of times. Neither judging forum approves restamped engines or cars with replaced trim tags. They make every effort to detect these cars with the master pad library that is kept by Al Greening and the the new data on trim tags that is also kept by Al. Bloomington and NCRS both know that with the improved methods of restamping available today that they have no choice but to pass an engine if they feel it appears as typical factory configuration. Bloomington has a penalty box that states that a car may not go Gold if either the casting date, casting number, assembly code or VIN number on the block are not of typical factory configuration. If it is undetectible, it must pass unless there is prior knowledge of the engine being restamped.
NCRS will allow points for each of the areas and an engine will not be knocked out of Top Flight contention if it does not have the correct VIN, for example. NCRS gives the car owner the option of removing his car from the event if the judges smell a rat. That way the bad news is not documented on the judging sheet.
They do and will bust engines at these events as was the case at the Waco NCRS Regional a few weeks ago. I was there judging and I also presented a car for judging.
There is flexability in the judging event. I presented a 16,900 mile 1965 Corvette with an engine that had its pad reground at the factory. This was the first time for this car to be judged and I was a wreck about what would be determined. On top of this, Al Greening, master judge and trusted keeper of the master pad library was the engine judge on my car. Al looked at me during judging and said that judging my car was like a judging school for him. He took photos of my pad as an excellent example of an original factory regrind and noted on the judging sheets, "nice original engine".

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Tim,
Please explain the "factory" regrind Situation as I have heard this discussed numerous times by Corvette Judges, but have yet to see an example with Camaros?

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Have any of you checked your casting numbers lately? I've heard horror stories of casting numbers being modified or remolded with epoxy to make them something they weren't originally!!

Give it a tap with a screw driver....see what happens! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

There is no such thing as a "Restored Original" car. It's one or the other. Car's are only "original" once, they can be restored as many times as needed.

This question comes around every so often, and what it really comes down to is money. Some people feel it's easier (ie cheaper) to rebody a car seen as worth a pile of dough, be it a ZL1, Motion, Nickey etc because it has some value that can be recouped in the future. Because of a perceived chance to either get your money back or make some in the process it is justifiable to the swapper. If you wouldn't invest the same time and effort to restore a 6 cylinder coupe with a powerglide and a ten bolt, your doing it for the money, in my opinion. Your not doing it for any higher calling no matter what kind of justification offered. Any car that is to far gone to be saved by component replacement should be given a proper burial.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

That has certainly happened, a little tap with a screwdriver and the date code came off! Nice 'bondo' date on a 512 block.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Stefano,
The factory regrinds are very interesting and there are a number of articles published by Al Greening on the subject.
When the assembly date/code was stamped on the pad at the engine assembly factory, often times there were errors made by the person hitting the gang.
Sometimes as in late 1967, they took non Corvette motors and converted them to 327/300 HP Corvette motors. The person that made the "hit" also had a powerful hand grinder available to quickly grind the surface clean and correct the error that was made or make a necessary change. This is still being done today on the engine assembly line. Speculation was that a worker may have pulled the wrong gang and incorrectly stamped a motor with the wrong code. It needed to be corrected and the procedure was to take the powerful hand grinder and within 10 seconds clean the numbers off the pad. Of course, this wipes out the broach marks and the resuting marks run most of the length of the pad. As the ID number of the car has not been hammered on the pad at this point, only part of the pad is ground. These guys did this many times in one day according to most sources and they got good at it. The traits are similar on factory regrinds, it is just hard to prove that a particular grind was done at the factory. Fortunately, my car is a very original car with the security/warranty gaskets still in place on the engine (these gaskets were only used on the assembly line and are not reproduced, this was the way Chevrolet determined if an engine had been tampered with) It becomes tough when a fuel injected car is restored and it shows up at an event with a reground pad.
Many times it is not given full points. In many cases people shy away from a pad that has been ground and restamped at the factory. With the master pad library, it is possible to compare a stamp on an engine with a stamp on an engine in a similar range to see if the stamps are similar. When I found my car, I was hesitant to buy it because of the grind, but after inspecting the car I thought it may be an asset as it had to happen at the factory. There were many master judges and photographers looking at the pad all weekend. Some may say it's silly although I really enjoy these unusual things about cars.
And yes, some casting numbers, dates are done with epoxy and these do not last long when a block is cleaned. What a mess.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

This post reminds me of a childs bedtime story, about a toy bunny that wanted to become "real". When it had become worn out, and thown out, it magically became "real". All a big fantasy. That is my humble opinion regarding "rebody restorations".