1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2462208060 Ls6 convertible for sale.....if anyone is looking

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Is this car legit???

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

"This auction is for a very rear muscle car". ... Please remember a Hemi Charger Convertible is worth over a million. "

1) What's a "rear car" ???
2) No such thing as a Charger Convertible, let alone a Hemi powered one.

Remember, the spell checker is your friend https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Looks like YOU must be looking, going by who the high bidder is... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif m

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Check again, who the high bidder is!!!!!!

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

This car is owned by the same fella that had the Scuncio COPO Camaro that was for sale on e-bay a while back. He also had a Yenko Deuce Nova sold out of Cliff Peck Chevrolet Little Rock, AR that was bought by Dave Belk and then restored by our own Ken Schoenthaler. I hear that the LS6 vert is legit.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Why wouldn't you pull the car out, clean it up a bit, and provide some decent pics? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

If it's too clean, you lose that "survivor car" effect... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

That is a big eBay pet peeve of mine. If you are selling a high dollar item take some good pictures.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Looks like a couple of people we know are interested in the car! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Also looks like the car will definitely be going to a new home https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Hopefully to one of us. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

1 Bid retraction already!!! Ya gotta love selling cars on ebay....

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Looks pretty ratty.

I am guessing that since the car has not been ripped apart on the forum that the consensus is the car is the real thing? Have any expert's look at the car and what do they think?

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

I would think that since at least 4 guys from here have bid on the car, that it legit.
James

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

From my understandings, one of the 2 NCOA Diamond judges has looked at the car. I also understand he was comfortable with the car as far as being authentic. It does need A LOT of work (spelled $$$$$$) but otherwise a nice car. I would hope whoever ends up with the car gives it the restoration it will deserves.
Rick

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

I should also add that the car should not be touted as 100% original. There are MANY items under the hood that are clearly NOT original to the car that need attention. All numbers, dates and codes should be verified before the money is paid out.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Rick, I have no opinion either way whether the car is real or not[i just have to respectfully disagree that in this day and age anything can be "verified" without GM paperwork] ,just strange that its been for sale 3 times after the "experts" verified it and wasnt sold before,now everyone wants it,and it hits reserve the first day by bidders from this site ?? Im thinking if i wanted the car that badly id have been there the first day with a hauler,or the six months in between auctions . Honestly i think the reason is people are testing the waters to see if it will gain acceptance without paperwork on this site PRIOR to buying it,rather than buying it offline and showing up with a non documented Ls6 and no momentum [understandable ] ...Just my opinion...

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Yountto.. I had forgotten all about the car and in my opinion prices have jumped since it was last for sale. 71 Judge converts are now 200-300K so a orig engine LS6 convert for 75K seems like a deal in comparison.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Plus, like it or not, the opinion of this board DOES bear on the desirability of the car. I'm sure the folks from this board that have expressed interest in the car are aware of who inspected the car [a year, or so ago]. His opinion/comment weighs heavily in a decision to purchase a '70 Chevelle LS6 convertible without paperwork. Nothing trumps original documentation, but I believe CW's opinion is the next best thing. So, I guess I'm agreeing with you that acceptance here is valuable.

SS

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

So do i get a finders fee for first posting it here and reminding you???!...I do agree with you on prices and wasnt specifically talking of you because you are the high bidder[again,after the bid retraction] ,the only point i disagree on is that i cannot personally call an Ls6 an origial engine car[with OR without paperwork],just because a chevelle judge says so....even the NCRS judges will certify a car 100 points yet have a disclaimer that says even though the car is judged top flight, the ncrs makes no guarantee as to authenticity,because quite frankly how can they look at a car 30 years after the fact and be certain???...I have not tried to discredit the car in any way because i havent seen it....Its just that now that site members bid on it,everyone is quick to call an undocumented car the real deal by the bidder list...

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have not tried to discredit the car in any way because i havent seen it.

[/ QUOTE ] Interesting point Yountto...if you saw it and agreed the numbers added up and looked undisturbed,what would your opinion on it be since it still wouldn't have paperwork ?....

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Personally i believe if a car has a factory GM buildsheet or GM canada paperwork,or in the case of the ZL1s the vins are known,i would verify the car is surely legit....other than that POPs,owner history,and peoples opinions just dont count when you are in 200k 300k land[or less for that matter].....What you are saying is if you take a real L78 camaro,buy a virgin dated block and a set of 842s and do nothing else but add these two items, you have a real L89 because it looks to be one????

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

I tend to agree but buildsheets are suspect too...but my question was what you would say about this car if you were able to personally look at it and found that it looked legit ??? Would you deem it to be as valuable as a car with doc's being it is such a low production car ?

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

There is absolutely NO way any car without docs is as legitimate as one with, you have to be kidding....Ive only questioned that the parameters of what is needed for a car to be "documented" have been altered and watered down to fit a given situation and or individual[s] ...One can make an educated assumption[note "assumption"] that a car is real based on a combination of originality,owners,and condition,but nothing with certainty without paperwork. The problem is buying a car with no docs is like buying a Babe Ruth baseball documented by a handwriting expert,you really hope its his signature but it bothers you that maybe the Babe didnt sign it...I give alot of credit to the seller for not having a 200.00 POP in this particular case https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif,its going to a new home so good luck to the buyer also

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Chuck's opinions are both well stated and well respected in my opinion...I agree 100% with him concerning the current prices and what has become "acceptable" in this hobby. I know Chris and while I value his opinion, I'm not ready to risk buying a car for that kind of cash without firm factory paperwork. Buildsheets or GM Canada paperwork in my opinion are the BEST source of factory documentation, as they are directly from the factory. I think the days of guys buying a car with a POP and thinking it is original, based solely on that are long gone. I don't think anyone is navie to think buildsheets can't be faked, however there are a lot of subtle things that verify a sheet as being authentic. With POP's there isn't this "safeguard," therefore a car with solely a POP can't be worth in my mind what a buildsheet car is worth, and in my mind it doesn't matter whether the car is a COPO or a LS6. I do applaud the seller for not having a POP made as well. Just because a car is bought by someone here doesn't mean it is real or correct, so I completely disagree with the idea that this board or 1 person can "make or break" a car. As Chuck pointed out, doing your homework and researching a car, can and will substantiate or discredit paperwork and a car.

Just as a side bar to this topic...ever notice how many people frown upon green cars, yet when looking at what was "popular" green and "earth tones," were the rage in the late '60's and early '70's. I would bet if someone took a statistical sample green would account for a large percentage of sales. I do hope that whoever ends up with the car appreciates it, and it is proven to be legit as is expected.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Good civil perspectives .....Thanks. Greg, color will always be in the eye of the beholder and his checkbook....

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

You should see the green in my house! Dark, dark green kitchen cabinets, green kitchen sink, green stovetop, green oven, green fridge, green bathroom sink, green bathtub. Thank god my car is Hugger Orange! But my first Camaro was Rally Green. As for paperwork, I know of a 10K mile, original owner 69 Z28 Rally Green that is in mint condition. He doesn't have a clue where any paperwork is for the car. I know the car is exactly what he says. I would pay more for that car than for a car with so called documentation since any documentation can be faked nowadays. So documentation is really more of comfort factor when buying a vehicle. If you think the paperwork has been faked, then you won't buy the car. If it looks legit, you're more comfortable buying the car, but there are still no gaurantees. I don't care if it's POP, window sticker, buildsheet or GM of Canada docs, it can all be faked. The GM of Canada is the safest because you can still call them with the VIN and verify that the car is legit. It still doesn't mean the engine hasn't been restamped or altered. That's why the records that Chevrolet has that Jim M's group is working on is so valuable. More comfort knowing that the car is legit.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is navie to think buildsheets can't be faked, however there are a lot of subtle things that verify a sheet as being authentic.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could say the same thing about the car itself! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

True, and I'm certainly not saying I've not owned some cars that I thought were completely legit and that had nothing more than title searches. However I didn't pay what the cars are "worth" today, and when sold they weren't sold for top dollar either. I think there are a lot cars without factory docs that are legit, but if I'm looking at the "big picture," I'm concerned about possible re-sale (never know when I might have to sell..)so IMO factory docs are the only way to go. Yes buildsheets can be faked, but if you educate yourself and research what original docs look like, you won't get burned..The materials to fake them aren't available (the actual sheets are distinct plant to plant) and the way the different factories coded the options and the fonts they used are unique plant to plant..With POP's the materials and "look" are universal and they have been avaiable for sometime..A POP "made" 15 years ago, can look aged and will appear original. Since there isn't any "special" wording, unique paper or type font, I personally don't think they can be used to validate a car. They are nice to have, and in conjunction with other docs can further lend credulence the car is legit, BUT they don't validate by themselves. Same with other non-factory docs...Just my opinion..

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Joe, Youre a parts vendor too..i know i have enough stuff here myself to make 10 copos if i chose....the point is dated parts dont make a car... The reason 437 alternators and 499 distributors are thousands of dollars is because the undocumented cars get them to create a sense of "documentation" and originality....Ill take a canada paperwork driver COPO with a 350 engine over any undocumented "#s match" COPO ANY day of the week...

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

So I have a Friend with a Triple black RS M22 COPO that has orig drivetrain but no paperwork. He has known the car since new and it needs resto. You are saying you would take the 350 COPO over it because it has paperwork ? I think every individual car is different and has its own circumstances. I would take this Black RS COPO over almost any other COPO, with or without paperwork.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Yountto, I'm not saying i don't think paperwork is needed... hell, I'd take a car with a stack of original docs over one with none too... my point is just that cars that may not have all this stuff saved with it for 30+ years shouldn't just be considered "worthless" compared to cars with paper. I just helped my father sell a 69 X33 Z/28 that has never had a stitch of paperwork with it since he bought it in 1986. Does that mean its not a real Z? Should he have just let it rot away under the pine tree where it was sitting? By now I'm sure it would have been crushed and turned into a Subaru. My point is that even without paperwork, alot of cars still can be determined beyond a shadow of a doubt to be legit...at LEAST as easily as someone can tell if a buildsheet or POP is real...While paperwork may make them easier sells, there are many cars without documents that are real-deal cars, and shouldn't be considered "suspect". For the record, I know nothing about the LS6 in question, and am just speaking generally. Besides, as long as folks buy and restore these cars, you can sell em' 900.00 alternators and i can sell em' 600.00 license plate frames, and everyone is happy.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

When did you guys put this stuff on sale !!!

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

As Greg C stated earlier,whether you buy a car for enjoyment or investment you always have to think about down the road...I prefer to have factory paperwork because most people buying big $$ cars want it ,plus i can make my own undocumented car if i wanted and probably save 50k ...I wouldnt want to be in a situation where i rely on a "my friend bought it new,heres his phone #" to secure my 200k investment.You know your friend and know the car is real,but after a few more people buy it it becomes a 5 owner undocumented car that 2 friends once owned ....If i just wanted a car to use and enjoy then id take the car you speak of.....I have never seen a collection where the owner weeded out his factory paperwork cars to make room for the undocumented ones.... have you???

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

If I had a documented COPO Camaro and the owner wanted to work out a trade for his black one I would do it in a second.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Charley,

I think we can all agree that personal knowledge of a particular car might affect your view to buy or not. However what if you go to sell that car, to say someone that has no prior knowledge of it. Now I know you are well respected in the hobby, but I don't think someones' level of respect should be what we base purchases on...I would bet if you bought the car and then went to sell it, you would ask top dollar..Therefore someone paying top dollar should expect to get a "no excuses" car...No having to second guess, no explaining to others..No having to buy a "story"..instead they should pay top dollar based on the idea that the car validates itself. Im my opinion the only way today with the fraud out there is to buy a car with factory docs..I have never really spoken to Kevin S., but from what I understand he will only buy a car that has factory paper...is it because he only finds those cars interesting..doubtful..I would guess (Kevin please step in here..:) that it is to protect his investments..I used to collect WWII US and German martial weapons, and the one thing that was always stressed by other collectors to me, (especially when starting out) was buy the gun..not the story. It is always better to buy a car with paperwork and documents then without..A documented car with unquestionable docs will always bring more money than a similar non-documented car regardless of "owner" history or who is sellling...

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I had a documented COPO Camaro and the owner wanted to work out a trade for his black one I would do it in a second.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same with the low mile original owner Z28 I mentioned. Each car has it's good points and bad points. And each car appeals to a specific type of person. So saying a certain documented car is worth more or less than an undocumented car is really just stating a personal opinion. The market will determine what a given car is worth and the associated risk in buying it. I prefer to have documents with a car, but if it's a very limited production car, you don't have much choice if you really want one.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think someones' level of respect should be what we base purchases on...

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally, I'd rather buy a car based on my respect of the people who know the car and have owned it, than from someone I'm not sure I trust but has "alot of paperwork" with the car. Earlier, When you were inquiring about a camaro you had prior knowledge of, and felt the need to "go public" with the info, did you have paperwork to back up your claims? No, but you had the word of people you knew and trusted, who had owned, and were associated with the car...and based your judgement on that. I really don't see how that's any different than buying a car based on the respect and knowledge of the car's history from previous owners. I always have looked at paperwork as being an added "bonus" to a good car, but just as I've seen legit cars without papers, I've also seen alot of questionable cars that had stacks of it. I'm sure you have too. JMO.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

"I prefer to have documents with a car, but if it's a very limited production car, you don't have much choice if you really want one."....................This is exactly the point.You are basically saying that since Ls6 ragtops are rare,go to any extreme to try and validate the undocumented ones...because you cant find many real ones?? To me a car is either documented or not,wheter its a 300k ls6 ragtop or 50k L78 camaro