High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

If the price is high enough on the originals the repops are inevitable. The end could soon be near for the 21K Cross Ram and the 100K 69Z as the market saturates.

A friend and I were just talking on this topic several weeks ago and I told him that someone was going to repop these...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=10076

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

imo, repro parts have little to no effect on the prices and values of original NOS and used GM parts. Repro stuff will always be just that, repro. There will always be a market for original stuff. Think of all the parts that are now available in reproduction, yet prices for these same parts in NOSGM are at an all time high. Everything from sheetmetal to steering wheels, to weatherstrip, to radiator caps. Bottom line is there is no substitute for original GM stuff, and won't likely ever be. Judging by the prices some of this original stuff gets, alot of others feel the same way.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Joe,

I respectfully disagree, and here is why. I have been carefully watching the recent two year spike in the prices of these cars. As I recall it all started two years ago at the BJ Auction when a guy brought two well restored 69 Z-28's to be sold. both brought world record prices. Both had FAKE not even reproduction X-rams but fakes without no MFG markings at all. (See attached photo taken at BJ)

To a fanatic-you are correct. originality matters-alot. But unfortunately there are plenty of people that just want one.

Here is a another perfect example of how this plays out.

527 and 826 exaust manfolds. A little shop in indiana was knocking them off in small batches a full three years prior to D+R getting the agreement from GM to do the real Reproductions. As you may recall (I do) Prices on these manifolds were in excess of $1500.00 a pair prior to the official reproductions. Now they are $300.00 a pop and everybody has them. I recently passed on an original set of new take offs for $450.00 due to slight pitting, as the judges will now take points as they are used to the quality of the repops.

I guess the big issue with the X-rams is each major author who has written on them has stated that they do not run well on the street. When the market is flooded in several years we will again see them at swap meets for sale as people pull them back off the cars, and the cycle then repeats.

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I just sold a set of exhaust manifolds on Ebay for 1,275.00 so I don't think the repo that has to be machined to fit has done much to the value of the orig ones yet. As for the crossrams. I think all the repo crossrams that are being done will have a effect on the value of a crossram car but I don't think you will be seeing orig crossrams being taken off and sold at swap meets. You might see the repo setups showing up at the swap meets though.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Charlie,

I think the value of documented X-ram cars will remain good. An X-ram car with owner history and documents to the install date (with a dealer receipt) will be blue chip.

Phil

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

You're right on the money Charley... Repro stuff is always different than original, and good original parts will always command the real money... will there be a select guy here or there that unknowingly pays "real car" prices for put-together stuff and repro parts? Sure, but that doesnt mean when something comes out as a reproduction that the originals have suddenly lost their value... if anything, the "real-deal" stuff becomes even more sought after, when people grow tired of looking at the incorrect repro stuff... good observation on the exhaust manifolds too... i have a repro set on my Deuce that leak like a seive, and make contact on the engine block everywhere BUT the flange...I think Marlin is dealing with the same PITA as we speak... show me a pair of original ones with good smog holes (even PITTED original ones!) for 400.00 or less and I will show you a buyer. (me!)
PS... i'll also show you someone with a set of "exact" repros for sale very cheap too... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I agree with Charlie, we just sold a set of original 69 exhaust manifolds on ebay for $2025.00. The availablity of repop stuff didn't affect the sale. In most cases originality will demand the higher cost.

Rick

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Yep you are right. With a world wide following-there is always someone who is willing to pay big dollars for the right date on the right set of exaust manifolds. What I am saying here is the days of table selling these parts for that kind of money at Swap Meets where you can inspect the part prior to buying it- is OVER. Even the speciality swaps are affected as I go to most of them in the midwest and the east coast- these parts are not even on the tables for sale. The reason that they are on E-bay is because as the market is focused and specialized today and E-bay is the best way to reach this segment of buyers.

Phil

PS. The topic posted was about Cross Rams. Any one want to talk about that?? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

No, but since that manifold is a Offenhauser intake that has been machined to look like a Cross Ram intake (count the Bolts in the cover) it means that some bidders are becoming a little mote educated about what they are buying.

Hope whoever owns the winters foundary marking isn't too upset that someone is using it on counterfeit parts.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I believe that seller is Joe at The Parts Place here in Elburn Illinois.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

The picture used in the first post was taken at BJ west palm in April 04, and this is the same car.

As I recall car sold for $110K Same guy who has been selling these at BJ the last few years.

Seller did not disclose that it was Offy. In fact he told me that he had it - and several others made "special" for him at a foundary.

No Mfg markings = is an attempt to deceive. As the printed material associated with the sale carefully tip toed around the manifold details- other that to state that the car was equipped with the "Ultra-Rare Cross Ram".

If they (the bidders) are paying over $100K for a car with a fake- then who is really figuring this all out?? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Phil

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I think the cross ram deal will be a phase. When they are available and within most peoples price range there will be many takers. As time goes on and they find themselves on just average cars, those guys that own those cars will be taking them off. Most people arn't really able to set them up and make them run very well. They will be getting sick of them and will be looking for their single 4 barrel carb to put back on. Same thing happened with the old F.I. on the vettes and 57 chevies. Average guys couldn't get them to work and they were trading them with money for the single quad. If I remember correctly there were at least 3-4 X-ram cars at Super Chevy at Maple Grove this year. The cars were not really even that nice. Kerry Stanleys is really the only one I ever saw that is efficient. Why would you want to slow a car down that is already a little timid? Sam

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I don't see the phase thing at all I still think they have plenty of up side left in the value of a original piece with old dated on carbs. repro is crap and will always be looked down on. the current flood of 4295 holley's on ebay are the recently re-released version a large carb vendor form down south commissioned holley to do. you'll be seeing many of the good list# holley's popping up soon nos with old dates (buyer beware).I will make a bold prediction an say that a crossram car will be the highest of all record setting priced camaro's in the future. The AL M 68z convertible or one of the penske trans am cars (probably the 69 championship car) expect to see the million dollar mark if the market stays on the same track it's been on the last couple of years. I see that inturn influencing the value of the rest of the z28's with real gm crossrams especially ones with gm jl8's.
As far as tuning my car my crossram car has same jetting specs as Kerry's car much leaner than oem,my power valves are higher # than his due to different cam, and looser valve setting's had a noticeable effect on starting ease. I kinda like the fact that the guys that don't know how to tune a holley don't like the setup. sorta weeds out the poser's.
As far as drivability you could take my car or Kerry's coast to coast without a second thought. make sure you bring your shell gold card though.
The sound is different when your foots in the gas too, make more of who's your daddy kind'a roar, sounds like it's trying to suck you hood down through the carbs worth all the money just to listen to it through chambered exhaust don't think i turned the radio on since i put the setup on and who ever says they slow a timid motor down hasn't been in one. midrange and top end are a dramatic improvement. go to a vintage trans am you will see the 2x4 cars noticeably outpull the single 4 barrel cars. I'll never forget the first time I saw the old penske crossram camaros 67 68 and 69 car vintage race at Watkins glenn impressive power. but the best was at the Monterey classic a couple of years back live on the speed channel when I think it was pat ryan in his crossram car running in second on the last lap last corner when he snuck alongside the the mustang leading the race.then in a flat out drag race to the checker stomped the mustang by a car length. in a post race interview pats comment was (with a ear to ear grin) "a finish like that just goes to show you two for barrels are better than one"
CROSSRAM $20,000... EMBARRASSING A FORD LIVE ON NATIONAL TV.... PRICELESS!

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

The AL M 68z convertible does not have a crossram on it, just a aircleaner. I'll sell my Crossram for 20K but I think that window has closed.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

You may be right my man. We will just have to see. They do look great with the hood open! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I'm wondering if the $20K crossram price was a spike in the market or not. But the flood of new Holley 4295's might help run the price back up on original carbs. The repro crossrams will find a market in people who could never afford the $20K for the GM piece, but that will probably keep the GM prices up as well. Who knows, I thought $5K for a complete GM setup was ridiculous money. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

The drag race to the Chekered Flag was classic. I could not believe it he drove deep into the corner hammered the brakes and then drag raced the Mustang to the finish.
As far as the pricing goes I'll wait to see the quality of the repo's and also if they put dates on them. That will be the real determination. If they put old casting dates and the intakes look like NOS (or good enough to fool 90% of the buyers) then that will determine if the $20,000 pricing will hold or not.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Charlie,
When I saw the 68 Z convertible at the Kruse auction in Auburn (labor day weekend) it had a cross ram setup on it.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

No..all that was there was a crossram air cleaner. If you look closely you will see 3 carb studs. The center one is attaching it to the single 4bbl carb.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

You can see from this pic, 1 carb From Muscle Car Review Feb, 03

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Charley...I was at Als place a little while back.Just before he took the car to the auction. It has a crossram on it now. I took a picture of it.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Interesting, this showed up in one of Heartbeat Jim's auctions for two crossram carbs on Ebay:
[ QUOTE ]
HEARTBEAT CITY CURRENTLY OWNS THE ORIGINAL TOOLING AND MOLDS/Patterns to the Original Crossram intake manifold. This would be the same tool used to make the intake manufactured in 1969. This is NOT anything like the pieces recently advertised on ebay with welded on part numbers and snowflakes and who knows what other customizing has been done to them.

Heartbeat City is 1-2 weeks away from having intakes available here on ebay. They will be sold complete with carbs and air cleaners. Every single part to mount them and run them will be included. STAY TUNED! THEY WILL BE ON EBAY WHEN THEY'RE AVAILABLE.


[/ QUOTE ]

Anybody see one yet?

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Somebody else is running an auction with brand new crossrams and he even shows the manifold parts coming out of the mold. They use the casting # and Winter's snowflake as well. I think people will still pay high prices for original GM stuff knowing what it is.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

Two years from now, how are you going to be able to tell a repo made from the orig molds vs a orig one? If they are done from the orig molds and done correctly I think they will have a big effect on value. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

If the new ones have 1968 or 1969 dates cast into them I would think that they would need to be sold as reproduction manifolds because if you sold one as an original GM dated manifold it would be fraud. If someone offered to sell you a crossram manifold for $2500 I would tend to think it wasn't an original GM manifold. I'm sure there will be differences in the aluminum itself as well. We can only hope there is still a way to tell original GM manifolds from these new manifolds.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

What is the fuss with these manifolds? Someone please clarify for me. Did these manifolds come from the factory on the car and are the cars coded for that or were these put on by the dealer with an invoice? If the car has POP or some documentation from the factory, then I think there is value to making the motor correct as the factory did, but if not, its neat to have one on the car but I can't see where it adds the money they want for them. Now four way discs are way cool, but an intake manifold, set me straight. No disrespect, just confused.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

You don't think factory performance parts are cool? Factory offered headers, off-road cam, crossram setup, transistor ignition, etc. They are all neat because they were offered by GM. Ford did the same thing with the cross-boss setup. AMC actually used an Edelbrock manifold I believe. I can see people paying for original performance parts, it's the people paying $1500 for a set of door sill plates that I don't understand. But it all comes down to suppyly and demand regardless of what type of part it is. Restoring a car with correct or appropriate parts has become a huge hobby. I thought crossrams were overpriced at $5000 but then people kept paying more and more. Never doubt a person's desire to restore their car the way they want.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I never in my post said factory performance parts aern't cool. I love performance enhancement. Were these manifolds performance enhancers, I've read were they were a pain in the butt to run and never worked as should. Nothing against what people put on cars but these manifolds seem less about performance than looks.
I never doubted the way a person restores their car, just looking for clarification as to if these were factory or dealer installed. Good luck with your project.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

They were dyno proven to add 25 hp so that's a decent improvement. Obviously they were designed to add hp in the upper rpm range where the roadrace cars spent most of their time so a crossram on a drag car was not a good idea. I know quite a few guys running the crossram and have no problems after some tuning and setup. That's true of any carb/intake change. But if you had to drive your Z28 to work in the snow, a crossram would not be a good idea. To most people it's just a really cool looking performance piece to put on your engine.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end??
 

I agree, they are cool. Post some pics when your car is done.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

If I had an original I'd sell it if I knew the repos were exactly like the originals only without date codes.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

Heres an original one on Ebay now, Now that the repros are coming out this will be one of the first tests to see how or if they will affect originals. Opening bid is $8500, 6 1/2 days to go.
Ebay Cross Ram Auction .

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

Did you really mean to say "A cross ram on a drag car" ? I think that statement would apply more to a street car. I ran one on my '62 Chev II and it was very good. Not good on the street though.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I had an original I'd sell it if I knew the repos were exactly like the originals only without date codes.

[/ QUOTE ]I hate to say it, but I think this is why all these x-rams are showing up right now. People are trying to get all they can for the originals before the repros catch on down the road. JMO Sam

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

Reasonable opinion there Sam. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

It kinda looks that way to me Darren. Always seems to be about the buck! Sam https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

Yes I agree that a reputable seller would "have" to market the manifold as a repo. BUT what is to stop someone from misrepresenting it in 2 years as Charlie said. AND if they have dates on them who is going to know? This could get REAL ugly in 5-10 years!

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

Absolutely! It probably will.

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

Personally I've never paid much attention to this Xram intake manifold,until the recent ebay prices,& last Januarys B/J auction car.
Was it these two incidences that caused the repro market to take notice,or were they tooling up to repop this manifold looooong before those two examples happened?

Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

Good Question! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif Ask Jimmy Stubbing at Heartbeat City.