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Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
How do you feel about buying or selling firewall tags? I'm talking about real tags, not reproductions.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
It's just wrong...
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
My feeling is nothing good can come out of selling trim tags https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif and in a lot of states it is illegal One can pass off a clone for the real deal I think most on this site feels the same way There are just to many crooks out there that will pass off a clone car with a trim tag or vin tag of another car
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
its not illegal if thats what your asking. Do I like it no but the buyer and seller dont care about that. One X33D80 tag just sold for $400 while another Z28 tag sold for $905.
its the VIN tags that will get you jail time with the FEDS |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
It is not a VIN tag. I have a firewall tag for a 66 Chevelle 138 car. I was considering selling it.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Selling trim tags to me is like the rash of fake college diplomas going around lately. They are not illegal either. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
From my lawyerly perspective: the firewall tag is not illegal to sell on its own. But if the bozo you sell it to rivets it onto his 6 cyl Camaro and then proclaims it a Z-28 complete with his own handstamped DZ engine block and sells it to someone, you are guaranteed to be dragged into the subsequent lawsuit when the new owner figures out that his car is bogus. You may end up having the claim against you tossed out as a semi-innocent seller of the tag but not before you have spent about $20,000 in legal fees for an attorney who speciallizes in Federal law. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
That's a big stretch. If that were so, then anyone selling any vintage part, block, heads, wheels, dash, ANYTHING, could be sued. It just doesn't happen.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Actually it's not quite the stretch you might want to believe when it involves the area of data plates, VIN tags and the like (I'm not talking about basic car parts). A drowning rat will try to climb onto anything above water. If some unknowledgable "collector" finds out that he has been ripped off, he will call his lawyer and the lawyer (as lawyers do) will add everyone he can to the lawsuit in order to find the deepest pockets he can. Like I said, the "honest" seller of the tag may eventually be dropped out of the lawsuit but not until he's spent a bunch of money on lawyer fees to have his lawyer get him out.
The higher the value of the car, the more likely you will get involved in a lawsuit. If someone is illicitly cloning a base SS it's a little different than if he's cloning a ZL1 and trying to pass it off as a real car. The higher the value, the higher the likelihood of a legal feeding frenzy (no offense to sharks out there). |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Steve, I'm not a lawyer, but have been a detective in a big city and a PI for about 40 years total. If the guy who sells the car with the trim tag that he knows didn't belong to the car, (and it can be proven) and he represents it to be what the trim tag indicates, that's criminal fraud as well as civil fraud. I know of a 69 Camaro six cylinder that ended up as a 396 SS. The seller is the one who misrepresented the car and was sued in civil court. I really don't understand why it is legal for these people to make and sell trim tags. I know GM has taken action to stop companies who make decals, and other identifiable GM parts without being licensed to do so. And trim tags are most likely being bought for less that honest reasons. Just my opinion. Ken
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
If a 6 cylinder ended up as an SS396, then the VIN must have been swapped out and that's why that may have ended up in court. The VIN shows 6 or 8 cyl.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Jonesy, I imagine you're right about the vin being changed also, either that or the buyer was not Knowledgeable. Ken
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
KENHAM, You're quite right. It also qualifies for Federal Criminal prosecution if it involves VIN fraud. Especially if it is a high dollar car and would make for a good example to show the public. The seller can also be sued in Federal Civil court for money damages if the buyer is in one state and the seller is in another.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Steve, wouldn't GM have some responsibility if it was brought to their attention that the trim tags were being used to defraud buyers and they didn't take action to stop their production, or license their procuction?
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
hep,
I also must reply to this, as the subject is very close to me through my endeavors to help people prove their car is legit. It is NOT a stretch. I agree with nj steve. The trim tag was never meant to be a "replacable part" on the car. It is the car's birth certificate. Darren also had another good analogy. Let's say you were born with a short embarrsssing name, so you legally changed your name to Richard Wadsworth. Unfortunately, you can not change your original birth certificate, so you're still Dick Wad. (no personal offense meant) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif The trim tag is not the last "part" to go on the car, to match the rest of the restoration. The restoration should match the trim tag. The reason why some tags are selling for lots of money is because if they are on the car, it "indicates" the car is legit as it appears, and therefore has a much higher value. That increased value is false, therefore fraud has been committed. Sorry for sounding like a laywer, Steve. Verne |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Not that my opinion matters much, but here goes - I don't like the idea, something inside me sais it's wrong and not cool. The person must need money real bad to be selling these things. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
[ QUOTE ]
so you're still Dick Wad (no personal offense meant) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif [/ QUOTE ] Lets say you had the name Dick Wad (no personal offense meant) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif and could not change it. |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
As I said, there was no personal offense meant. The "you're" was meant "collectively" as anyone trying to change his birth certificate. (or his car's)
But I will also stand by my firm conviction that "in general", anyone who sells, buys or installs a trim tag on a car it's wasn't born with it is a low-life unethical participant in this hobby. I don't believe you're in that category, since you asked the question whether it would be ok or not. Someone in that category would not ask that question - he'd just do it and keep it to himself. Verne https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Verne, I couldn't have said it better.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
If I was a guy that scrapped a bunch of cars over the years and kept the trim tags as a collection then needed money and decided to sell them, hopefully to someone else that collects them. Any harm in that ?
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
no
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Nope. But then I don't suppose they'd sell for $900. apiece either.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
What about a legal body swap because your 67 ss was a rusted out old bucket and you found a solid donor 67?
you changed both vin and trim and had both cars properly inspected. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
1 Attachment(s)
You guys really think that 905 dollar auction for the trim tag (NOR308130) was real? Cause the tag was a repro, someones going to be pissed off.
Heres the first of 2 auctions for the same tag: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...672836&rd=1 |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
If Dick Wad has a bad disease that will render all his vital organs useless in the next 6 months and Richard Wadsworth was in a fatel car accident and was wearing a donar card and all his vital organs were donated to Dick Wad,,,,,,he's still Dick Wad! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Someone please explain how to tell a real trim tag from a re-pop
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Most obvious sign is a tag that looks like it's never been painted (stated only half facitiously). The tag was on the firewall almost as soon as there was a firewall. But seriously, there are significant differences and hopefully the repro'ers won't figure them all out any time soon. Look at the current thread on the Orange "COPO" in the for sale section, there are two identical tags associated with the car, both can't be original.
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
[ QUOTE ]
Someone please explain how to tell a real trim tag from a re-pop [/ QUOTE ] Good question Bob......I'd like to know myself. Lately, I've been 'eye-balling' the tag rivets real close. |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
I can see not posting that stuff though...
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Mark C.
You could just PM Belair with the clues as how to tell. I hear that he's starting a new business soon... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Yeah its called Real Fake Tags !! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Here is one that was just listed on Ebay.
James http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...807422&rd=1 |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
Compare the fonts, fake and real. crisp and clear, and not so clear. You decide... Im not telling https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
It's not only sellers involved here, but people are not shy to ask up front if tags are for sale. This ebay seller has a bunch of parts for a rare car for sale and, if you look at some of the comments in the listing, people are asking directly if the tags are for sale.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4515227729 |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
There was a BB Pacer at a Federal Government sponsored auction in Carson (CA) a couple years ago. My partner and I went to the preview showing to the look at the car, as it had been one of the draw cars with pictures advertising the auction in the LA Times. When my partner, who restores 69 Camaros, pointed out to the Government reps administering the event that the trim tag was a stone fake, they exibited very little concern, and sold the car to the highest bidder, a reseller in Oregon for over 30K. He, in turn, sold the car off his lot.
It is my opinion that, unless someone makes a huge legal stink, even the feds don't really care. I'm sure there are board members who remember the car, and its obvious shortcomings... JB |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
No legal law enforcment will inspect a car with the VIN changed! Instead they will conficate the car on the spot. It is a federal law not to remove and put on another car.
There is no legal way to put a different vin on another car. By law they have to issue a State assigned Vin # with a completely new number. IMO, The best way to do this is to repair the firewall of the car and then mate it up to a good solid body. Caution!! if you do this be damm sure that you have a legal BOS for the body that you do attach to a legal firewall with the good vin. There are hidden # on bodys in more than one place. That is how the feds catch cars that have had the vin changed. So be wise and do it the right way or you may be very sorry. Pantera Former bodyshop owner https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
A good friend of mine had his 97 Corvette stolen... the theif altered the vin# and drove the car around town for over 2 years until he was finally caught. He got the car back and the DMV issued a vinplate along with paperwork explaining the circumstances.
It was the old vin# |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
DS,
Again, from my point of view, the trim tag is NOT a vital organ or a replacement part to make the new "body" complete. When Wadsworth donates his vital organs to Wad to keep him alive, yes, he's still Wad, and still has his original birth certificate - even if he has new "guts". But if Wad dies, his birth certificate goes on file, marked deceased. It doesn't get attached to someone else. I also have a hard time accepting re-bodied cars. I don't think the entire body was meant to be a replaceable part either. I know it's done all the time when an original body and/or frame is too far gone for restoration, but I feel uncomfortable calling the resulting car "restored". "Re-created", yes. But that word gives me the same sensation as scraping my fingernails on a chauk board. Verne |
Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
I think I am going to start buying fake trim tags. Bang them a few times with a hammer, chew up the holes a bit and spray them black. Then I will list them on ebay. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
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Re: Buying/Selling Firewall Tags......
It must depend on the value of the car as how people feel about this. Also if your the one getting ripped off or doing so. Rememeber there is a ZL-1 that has had major surgery. That car may only have about 20%-30% of the factory original parts from day one. And has not really affected it's value. Point being, that they saved the vin# and cowl tag. No switching. How many corvettes have new tags, just for a color change. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
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