Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

And if so how and by who? What happens when a car thats certifed as a COPO type car is later found to be a rebodied?


(I opened this one up in a different thread since it started to take away from the COPO Chevelle that a member posted for sale.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Rebodied in what sense? Are we talking one of these new body's or a rebody by using a rust free original body?
There is a difference.

I got a feeling this thread is going to get interesting. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Rick H.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Get the popcorn....

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I am with you Rick. Interesting to say the least. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

The topic refers to a chevelle in this instance, therefore it would be replacing a rusted body with a rust free. I wouldn't worried about the new camaro body, it is my understanding they are easily identified.

Where Can I find VIN #'s?
 

Where do I go to find VIN's?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

As far as I know,the majority of scrutiny is aimed at the hidden vin stamped from inside the firewall over the heater box.This is impossible to duplicate,but if the original car had a clean panel in this area,and you did a good job of cutting the panel out of the old car and grafting it into a cleaner original body,you would despell 80 percent of the naysayers.There are also numbers on the subframe,so it would be beter to use the original one.I know 2nd gens had the number at the tail end of the driver's side subframe rail,but I think 1st gens had a number behind the steering box.Of course unless the donor car was chem striped or media blasted by a real expert,you would find old paint that could signal a color mismatch.It is really up to the buyer to check this all out before buying a car.I dont doubt that at least a few rebodies will show up over the years.The sad part is that once it is discovered,you can kind of assume that the original is a toyota by now.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

The new Repop body sticks out like a sore thumb. They're building them not far from me and any knowledgable Camaro person will see the difference. A couple of observations:

1. Three firewall configurations available - none look factory.
2. No VIN visable in the original location. No unmolested VIN means bogus in my book.

Got my flame suit on Gents - fire away........... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I know,the majority of scrutiny is aimed at the hidden vin stamped from inside the firewall over the heater box.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon the correction. There is no hidden vin stamped anywhere. They have repop serial numbers in various locations, but they in no way relate to original vin numbers.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Jeff...there are 2 real black COPO Chevelles...Black with a red side stripe which was restored by Mickey Hale and I think is in Arizona and a Black/white stripe California built car which resides in my garage. I can send you to a website where a lot of the rebodied cars originate and reside if you need info on how to rebody a car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif It must be pretty easy to do...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Bob .......How do the so called rebody shops treat the original vin? If its even there?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
The topic refers to a chevelle in this instance, therefore it would be replacing a rusted body with a rust free. I wouldn't worried about the new camaro body, it is my understanding they are easily identified.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no "certifying " them. Replacing a rusted car's body with an entire new body and placing the old car's VIN on the new car is illegal under the Federal as well as state statutes. There is no exception for restoring a car of significant historical value (though I think there ought to be). This falls under the same auto theft/VIN swapping statutes and it is illegal.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Don't know Craig...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
The topic refers to a chevelle in this instance, therefore it would be replacing a rusted body with a rust free. I wouldn't worried about the new camaro body, it is my understanding they are easily identified.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,
The opening statement was "COPO type car". I would believe that to mean any COPO including the Camaro. The new body's would fall in to the Camaro rebody scenerio. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

We now return to our regularly scheduled debate.

Rick H.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

(I opened this one up in a different thread since it started to take away from the COPO Chevelle that a member posted for sale.

Rick,
That was what I was refering to...

As far as the new bodies; they can't even reproduce a trim tag correctly. Do you think they could produce a whole new body that is undetectable. Especially with your critical eye?? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Jeff, what is your definition of a rebody? The hidden VINs don't match the VIN tag, or replacing so much sheet metal, little remains of the original car, but retaining the original cowl and the VIN's still match? How about a hypothetical former race car that had the firewall cut out including the hidden VINs, but the original trim and VIN tags remain and the rest of the car's sheet metal is original except for some patched 1/4 panels? Not an easy question to answer. I guess that is why survivor's can bring a premium.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Steve,
Good point. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

As for the body's, I really don't think that the company that produces the bodies did it to intentionally deceive anyone. It's the individual that buys the body, makes a clone and attempts to pass off the completed car as an original car that is doing the deceiving.
Believe me the differences between the repop bodies and original sheetmetal is such that any competent body shop can improve and make them correct.

OK, now back to our regularly scheduled debate....again. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Rick H.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I don't see what all the fuss is about. There are doctors in LA and Palm Beach who re-body people every day. A couple of Camaros shouldn't be such a big deal. Right???

wilma https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

It would be a big deal if I could purchase one of those people and found out my brand new Pam Anderson was once Aunt Bea (no offense to Aunt Bea).

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

They get certified, then the certifier gets sued when the new owner buys the car based on the certification. It's happened at least twice in the last 5-6 months, and more will probably be coming out.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Please dont tell me that the COPO Connection was part of this farce to ID bad cars esp since I recently looked at a few with Ed's certifications.

Im going to most likely walk the plank on this one (esp since im new here)but what known cars are not the orginal bodys then?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/im...es/popcorn.gif http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/im...es/popcorn.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Got any of that popcorn left over?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

This post is not directed to anyone in particular so please don’t think that I’m out to get anyone.

Where is the line drawn in the restoration or repair of a car?

Replace fender or fenders due to rust or crash.
Replace 1/4s due to rust or crash.
Replace trunk floor due to rust or crash.
Replace rear inner wheel wells due to rust or crash.
Replace rockers due to rust or crash.
Replace roof due to rust or crash.
How do any of the above things constitute fraud? They don't.

Weld in a piece of metal to repair hole in firewall.
Weld in a bigger piece of metal to repair firewall.
Any fraud yet? No.

Weld in a huge piece of metal to repair your firewall. In doing so the hidden VIN has been eliminated.
Any fraud yet? No. You simply replaced what needed to be replaced.

Take parts of your firewall and/or dash assembly and weld them onto a pre-assembled replacement body kit. Any fraud here? No. You are simply replacing rusted or crashed body parts with new parts. Many if not all cars built today have VINs on body and frame parts. When newer cars are crashed and have parts replaced, do you think it is fraudulent? Of course not. Frames get replaced every day in body shops all over the country. The cars and trucks keep their original VINs. So why all the fuss? Why should anyone think that a car should be confiscated or destroyed because of replacement body parts with the work being done as outlined above? What difference does it make if you replace parts one at a time or many parts at one time?

What should happen to all of those vintage racecars that crashed earlier this year? From some of the postings in these forums I see that some of you think those cars are now worthless junk. If anyone tries to fix them, they would be committing fraud. Oh wait, those are special cars owned by special people. So it's OK to fix them. The common folk have to resort to kit car classification.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I know of one of "The Rarest of the Rare" factory built race cars that has been rebodied and retagged......the car was found behind the original owners business and after 30 odd years of sitting unprotected in the weather, there wasn't much left of it......but, the original drivetrain and everything else was safely stored inside and were in perfect condition......a rust free donor car was bought out of arizona..........and you know the rest of the story..........

Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

As long as the buyer is aware of exactly what was done with the car, then no problem. How much restoration that had to be done will probably be reflected in the selling price. The problem is that eventually a money hungry shyster gets hold of the car and then the fun begins. An honest seller will never have a problem. It would even be to his advantage to have the buyer signing that he is aware of exactly what has been done to the car. I know that I will have a ton of pictures of the restoration of our car for any eventual buyer to see. Can't see a sale happening any time soon though. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Like Steve said, transferring the VIN tag and hidden VIN portions of the firewall is illegal so once that has been done, it's definitely a rebody. But if it's done really well, how would someone like Ed really be able to tell without taking apart the car he's inspecting. There will be more attempts at rebodys because the prices on these cars keep going up.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Just my opinion, but, I think before we start offering up blanket accusations that someone is doing something illegal or unethical, that we all take a breath, count to ten, and, remember that most things posted on the net are taken as fact by many people. Before trashing a person, or, a large group of cars, by insinuation, isn't it better to address individual cars that a prospective buyer may ask about?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what all the fuss is about. There are doctors in LA and Palm Beach who re-body people every day. A couple of Camaros shouldn't be such a big deal. Right???

wilma https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They dont always make sense though, I mean, look at this old crusty rebody https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/170468-bobrebody.jpg

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

- Personal opinion too, but the big thing I see in crossing the line between the work done to repair a car and something illegal, is INTENT! . Is the intent to innocently repair a damaged car and keep the facts of it's repairs available, or to slip as much of other cars under tags and Vin stamped parts and obscure the facts? . Somewhere in here is itself the issue of repop tags, POP's, restampings and other "documentation". . Perhaps some feel it's Ok with "rebodying" a car using only "all original parts" but wouldn't restamp or create bogus tags and documents? . Lots to consider, great stuff and things that need to be discussed, not always left in the darkness in case some need to hide in it someday....or are already there? ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before trashing a person, or, a large group of cars, by insinuation, isn't it better to address individual cars that a prospective buyer may ask about?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I agree...my comments were about a particular car mentioned. Maybe there needs to be some sort of registry for suspected cars ...and I also agree with Keith...as long as the car is represented honestly it's no big deal. Lots of people probably don't care if a car is a rebody...hell maybe some people prefer one because of the price difference that there should be if presented honestly.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I don't condone rebodies but I still have never had two questions answered.
1) Someone finds a complete ZL-1 car with a completely destroyed body. Should that car be parted out or rebuilt using a donor body and retain some of American muscles greatest history or should the car be crushed.

2) I recently restored a 1970 SS396 Chevelle convertible. I refused to put a donor body under it and instead restored the car with all new body parts. The only original parts to this car are portions of the firewall and the rear seat divider. This boardered on stupidity and cost the customer almost $20k in parts and labor. However, the car was saved and is now a beautiful car. Had I rebodied it, I do not feel I would have been trying to pass something off as fake as the car was fully documented. I agree that a rebody is not the same car that came off the assembly line but the same can be said about this car today. However, should this complete car have been scrapped instead of saving some history?

Putting myself in the shoes of a buyer, I am more inclined to buy a car with a perfect original body as opposed to one that has had every piece of sheetmetal replaced. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Some of you recall the story of the P-51B that I helped restore several years ago. Virtually every piece of metal was replaced on that airplane save for some hardware and the government ID tag. However, the airplane was once again made airworthy and to the delight of thousands of war veterans and kids alike. Unfortunately due to a mechanical failure, the airplane crashed and killed my friend. It is once again being completely rebuilt from scratch and will be airborne soon as a tribute to the pilot, veterans and enthusiasts. This is twice that this airplane has been reborn instead of scrapped. I don't think the vast majority of people could care less when they see that airplane fly overhead. I don't have nor may any of us ever have an answer to these questions.
Rick

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I think it's all in the way the piece is presented..Ferraris are rebodied and it seems to be a perfectly accepted deal...people will either buy them or they won't if it's disclosed...its a great discussion since these cars are getting pretty valuable...are there people on this board that would not hesitate owning a rebody ? Lets hear from you. Seems to be a grey area in this hobby and MAYBE it shouldn't be such a nasty subject.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Reading this i can't help but think of the yellow duece that is sitting in that field rotting. There really is nothing left of that car but the firewall. So does it get left in the feild to be reclaimed by mother earth?. Becouse it is now a known car to the enthusiests here anybody doing anything to it will not be able to pass it off as anything but a rebody. Sure it may not be as sought after as an original body but it will still be a duece and it will be saved. Does that make it a bad plan?. It may cost more to save it than it is worth so does that mean that the guy doing it is going to be chastised as being an idiot and dumped on by endless taunting, then he will think twice along with anybody else associated with the build as ever trying to save another rare car again. I think that reboding a car is fine as long as the car is represented as such and full history as to what happened to the car. I think for the most part the main problem is someone trying to pawn something off as being real when it's not. Well if the owner has the real shell, uses that to build another he has the right to do what he wants with it. Where would the fraud come from, by making copies?. Now that would be the problem. Personally i would like to see it saved and i would praise anybody who does it, unfortunatly seeing some of the taunts on here i know there will be a few naysayers.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Interesting discussion (Again). The L78 Chevelle I'm restoring got full quarters, fenders, passenger door, driver rocker panel and some small patches in the floor.

Everything in the drivetrain is #'s matching. Certainly, disclosure of the work performed is necessary.

Is the car a total rebody? No. It has been repaired/refurbished or in other words restored. In the end this seems like it will be an issue of personal preference, so long as the sellers are honest.

The "what if" scenarios are endless. What if the following:

1. If the car is "Ultra-Super Rare", can be documented and has it's original drivetrain intact. Body is shot, but car is all there.

2. If the car is nothing more than a rotted shell, that doesn't even have rolling gear. Only a VIN tag and Trim Tag, but can be documented

3. Someone happened to have documentation of a car that was destroyed years ago (car is known/confirmed gone) and they recreate the car based on an old title, buildsheet and dealer window sticker. At one time they owned the car, but trashed it years ago.

The possibilities are limitless. Buyers will have to decide what they will accept as the real thing. In the end I believe the market will price these various types of cars accordingly.

Rare cars will always be rare, but rebodies and 95% restorations will drive the prices up on factory original cars.

JMHO...

Blair

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

3. Someone happened to have documentation of a car that was destroyed years ago (car is known/confirmed gone) and they recreate the car based on an old title, buildsheet and dealer window sticker. At one time they owned the car, but trashed it years ago.


[/ QUOTE ]

In this case it would be a recreation not an original, if the car is gone it's gone!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Field car? As in this one?

https://www.yenko.net/features/2001/field.jpg

If so, I can tell you exactly what was replaced, with pictures to prove it. It was rough, but very original, and is not a rebody or a firewall job. It's a labor of love for many, just a bunch of $ signs for others.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Personal opinion again, but I think Rick and Bob are both right....if it's all in the open, let the individual situation be what it is. . With the values now, the time has come to let the "true" pedigree be part of what the car really is....or not! . Somewhere along the line the words "as original" became "original" where original doesn't mean "the original". . "Matching numbers" when a restamp and "restoration motor" terms cloud the facts too also it's a lot to ask that buyer beware is the order of the day when federal offences are being committed. .
On another note, Rick.....sorry to hear you were part of the P51B project and condolences friends and family of the pilot. . Love those warbirds too and have a Spitfire IV on my Christmas wish list! . Love to be able to go for a spin in one of the recently restored ME-262's too! . They just unvieled the Landcaster Bomber up here in Canada this week....not a flying example but still I think 10M. spent on the resto. . The example was pulled out of a lake in Europe, part of the fuselage replaced with one being used as a chicken coop somewhere....all above the board though and no restamping I know of? ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Very good point Rick

Many of you might remember a few years ago when a posted about a certain Daytona Yellow Yenko Camaro and its' history. The car was a local car, that I both raced against and rode in. It was a legit VIN and like a lot of hi-performace cars was cut up for racing. The car was back halved, the floors cut out, full tubs installed, the trans tunnel removed, etc. I thought it would be neat to post the cars history as it was associated with quite a few local racers, including the original owner of the yellow ZL1 Corvette. I researced the car and its' current condition (which is a stock restoration) and found out the car the original body had been cut off and a donor shell welded onto the original dash and firewall. The cowl tags and VIN tag, along with the "hidden" VIn were not removed, but literally 95-98% of the car wasn't the same car that left Norwood..I mean body shell, complete drivetrain, interior, moldings, subframe, etc. had all been replaced with parts from donor cars or NOS. Now to me..that is a "rebody"..and I even used the term in a post...My God, you would have thought I called the Pope a dirty name..lol

In my mind someone saved a neat car, and while I didn't agree with what was done...I would have researched the car and left it alone as a race car when I found out from day 1 that is what it was..I didn't find it to be "morally" worng. After all it is a piece of automoticve history. However quite a few people on here chastised me for "outing" the car and accused me of being malicious. These same people and quite a few others privatley sent me emails saying "thanks for the info" or "neat car and story." I guess when the term "rebody" is used people start getting up in arms, as instead of looking at a positive (the saving of a musclecar) they look at the negative. If you aren't hiding something or aren't going to hide soemthing, should it really matter?? Why should people knowing what was done make a big difference?

The bottom line to me is there isn't a lot of difference between cars with every piece of sheetmetal replaced and a rebody. The shouldn't command top dollar and people shouldn't be worried about others knowing what was done. There shouldn't be a stigma attached to them..they are after all still driveable, fast, fun cars...Just my thoughts..

GSC

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

No it wasent that one is was the sunflower yellow (is that the right color name?) that was on e-bay, it has been discussed here before.