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70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
i know its fairley rare but how rare would a factory 1970-71 bb 4spd ss camaro be?its a factory black bucket interior car.
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Camaro WHITE BOOK reports 1553 LS-3 Camaros were built in 1971 and 970 built in 1972.......the LAST year for Big Block Camaros.........NO accurate info on how many were 4spd and how many were Turbo 400.
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
L-78 375 / 396? or one of the lower HP 396's?
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
nastyz28.com has how many were made with each individual option listed, but with combinations of options it is unknown. you should first find out which big block you have; L78, L34, or LS3. just to ballbark it with 120,000 camaros in 70 and 2400 of those being 396 and half of those being 4speeds your around 1 in every 100. and these figures are very ballbark because all the L78s came 4speed.
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
..."and these figures are very ballbark because all the L78s came 4speed."
I think Mr.Lillard might have something to say about that. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
uh oh...not this topic again.
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Mark, Did you get something in the mail?
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
I'll still bet 5K they made at least one L78 auto... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Well Hello Mr.Lillard.
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Ok what would be the basis for "no auto" in an L-78? ZL-1's and L-72's had them already in '69. Clearly the TH tranny was stout enough to handle the power, and of note is the fact that automatics were phased in for the Z-28 in 70 also. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Somebody must have and options list or order sheet from back in 70 to confirm or deny the rumor of an Auto L-78 Camaro??? Could it have been a COPO option for someone who really wanted it? You see many LS-6 Auto Chevelle's and some L-78 Auto 69 Camaro's so why not a L-78 Auto 70 Camaro?
Paul |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
the no auto in a 70 L78 camaro subject has been beaten to death at nastyz28, and until someone comes up with documented proof otherwise, I'm standing by my uninformed gossip. There is rumor that someone in California has one, but isnt willing to let anyone look at it or take pix.
could you get a 70 L78 chevelle with auto? |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
[ QUOTE ]
..."and these figures are very ballbark because all the L78s came 4speed." I think Mr.Lillard might have something to say about that. [/ QUOTE ] Hear we go again. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Yes,but I've only found 3 out of 200 so far,including MINE. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif
If anyone has proof of another 1970 L-78/TH400 Chevelle,please let me know. I too believe that at least one had to be built with the Camaro,but Tonawanda records & salemans materials would indicate differently. The 1970 L-78 Novas seem to be the model most favored by the TH400. In fun,we subtly gang up on Charley as he has seen the paper for this example,but can't get pics of its paperwork. Quite honestly,if Charley says it does exist,that's good enough for me. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Is there actually a different engine code designating the automatic on that 1970 TH400 L78 car? I just think it would be very cool for the hobby to see this documented car. Kind of reminds me of the 68 Z28 convertible that was never made.
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
CTY was the code shared by the 1970 L-78/TH400 Camaro-Nova-Chevelle/Elcos.
CKP if it's one of the 18 Aluminum Headed Chevelles w/TH400. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
I have not seen the build sheet but friends have and the owner is not one to make stuff up. I have seen the car but didn't bother to examine it closely because I wasn't aware of all the controversy at the time. He has probably owned the car for 20 years. He used to use it as his tow car to tow one of his other 70's to the drags. Another member here has seen the sheet. No takers on the 5K bet ?
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Everybody on this board has a certain speciality, niche, or passion re: the musclecar hobby. Mine happens to be 1970 Camaros. I ordered my 1st 70 Z-28 new, after returning from Viet-Nam in 1969. I currently own three 1970 Camaros; 1) R/S Z-28, R/S SS L-48 & SS L-78. I have been serving as a Camaros at Carlisle 2nd Gen Legends judge since 2004 (1st year of 2nd Gen Legends) and also judged with the old USCC.
Having said all that I DO NOT claim to know it all. I have been involved in this controversial 1970 L-78/Turbo 400 argument for longer than I can now remember. BKH refered someone from NHRA(drag racing)to me, via E-mail. A racer had been using a 70 Camaro Big Block with T-400 to compete in the Stock/Automatic class. Somebody in NHRA then started dissallowing the car, challenging if that combo had ever existed. The NHRA official asked me to investigate, as I could not answer him directly. I have spent the past 7yrs on the internet posting, having discussions, judging car shows, making & receiving phone calls on this 70 L-78/T-400 issue. NO ONE has ever been able to show me any evidence, brochure, literature, pictures, statement saying WITHOUT DOUBT they ever wittnessed such a car. With 600 1970 L-78 originally built and maybe 100 (wild ass guess) still around, you would think that SOMEBODY would have knowledge or proof of ONE ever being built It would be easy to change a 4sp L-78 to a T-400, except for removing the 4spd hump and having floor appear as factory auto. A person could install L-78 powertrain and L-78 VIN Tag into L-34/T-400 body. SEEING the L.A. build sheet of Jack's and having impartial 1st Gen Judges inspect the car hopefully would settle this never ending discussion. I'm not willing to get into a $5K "pixxing contest" with Charley over this. I would be willing to contribute $$$ toward the expenses of having a legitimate FULL INSPECTION of this car. This would at a minimum show Engine block assy stamping, VIN stamping, T-400 stamping, 12 Bolt stamping, TRIM TAG authenticity and rivets, VanNuys build sheet, and unlikely to happen Firewall Vin stamping. Other misc dated parts could also point to this car being assembled or a survivor. Below are pictures of book pages written about the subject. FYI, Mike Steitz another L-78 owner and 70/2nd Gen judge is trying to accumulate a L-78 registry at www.nasty28.com (Original Forum) but needs more participation/cooperation Regards to all, Chuck http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tails/M40a.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tails/M40b.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tails/M40c.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...tails/M40d.jpg |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
I don't have this book but just out of curiosity what Antonick's credentials? Just wondering where he got his information.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif
I tend to agree that if Charley says there is one, there is. However, it is odd that the info on the car is so hard to obtain. I find it interesting that this is such a hot topic. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Reminds me of a certain LS-6 that was supposably manufactured in Oct or Nov 69 that Chuck Hanson and a select other few have seen. I respect the man beyond words but until someone can show me and other researchers a real piece of documentation it does not exist. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
Rick |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have this book but just out of curiosity what Antonick's credentials? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] I did a quick Google search and many links with his name deal with Vettes. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Paging Jim Mattison..
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
You know that's what I was thinking to.. He is going to be at the reunion...
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Darren...The info was not hard to obtain. The owner frequently brought the car to club meetings. He also frequently brought the build sheet in a binder with him. He dug his heels in when basically he had his car called a fake by Chuck. This guy has owned and probably owns more 70 Camaro's than Chuck ever has. To him there is no other Camaro than a 70. I'm sure he would probably allow me a day to look the car over but it is not high on my list of things to do.
I don't need to get into a pissing contest. I am just making my point that I am that sure the car and build sheet are real by offering to bet 5K. If anyone such as Chuck is so absolutely sure that it is a fake I would think they would jump at the chance to make 5K. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
I do love when people quote selections from books written by experts that later prove to be incorrect. One of the best was the Mopar expert books that would consistently state that the nose cones on the Daytonas and Superbirds were made of fiberglass. Absolutely incorrect. They were all steel from the factory. One writer back in 1969 assumed they were glass before ever seeing a real car in person and then every book writer from then on quoted his assumption for the next 30 years even though everyone that owns/or owned one knew better. But you couldn't convince the experts otherwise until you literally rubbed their noses in it.
Hey, does anyone remember a time when no one believed that a 69 Camaro ever came with an aluminum 427? |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
That part of the story I didn't know. Thanks Charley. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have this book but just out of curiosity what Antonick's credentials? Just wondering where he got his information.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif I tend to agree that if Charley says there is one, there is. However, it is odd that the info on the car is so hard to obtain. I find it interesting that this is such a hot topic. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] I checked the Library here at the house and sure enough the original source seems to be Michael Lamm from his book "The Great Camaro" Lamm-Morada Publishing Co. ISBN 0-932128-00-9 (Third printing February 1980). Page 114 Discusses the lack of TH as an option specifically on '70 with L-78. Quote from the second paragraph: "with Turbo Hydro optional on all but the L-78 396" Again on the same page in the 6th paragraph-quote: "In the Super Sport option (Z27; $289.65), the L-48 350 came standard, or you could order the L-34 or the L-78 396's with the 4 speed." "Turbo-Hydra-Matic was optional for the L-48 and the L-34." Finally in the specifications section of this same book (on page 139) the "1970 Camaro Drivetrain chart" lists L-78 with TH for 1970 as N.O. (not offered) Factual or not I am not taking a position on the matter at this point. I will say that even by today's standards the writing of Lamm holds up very well factually even after all these years, however with only about 1/6th of the L-78's made (located to date) we can all speculate on what Chevy did or did not make. At any rate -I think we have the original source of the information carried forward by Antonick in his book. Phil |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
BTW, here's a second generation GM F-body car that was never available, that just popped up on ebay. A black 1972 Trans Am. Everyone knows that they were only available in white or blue...everyone it ends up, but the guy at the factory that somehow got it built. Read the thread - all 5 pages. It's funny how it starts and how everybody is badmouthing the seller and the car (myself included) until the documents get posted and authenticated...then everyone, (myself included) tries to get the guy to sell after he decideds to keep it! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
In the end, until someone brings the documents and/or the car forward to be authenticated, it's still just a "maybe." http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthr...d&t=486878 -Steve |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
What are the chances someone can go look at the car?
Of course without having to pay $5,000 to do so. Rick H. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Is this the Camaro in question with Z-28 wheels and stripes ???? or is my picture of another "L-78" that VOLO had???
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...%20Misc/70.jpg |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
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Z-28 wheels and stripes ???? [/ QUOTE ] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif Rick H. |
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Is this the same car Chuck posted above only with the correct wheels??
Rick H. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
No, Different car. This is the alleged M40/L78. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
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Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
[ QUOTE ]
No, Different car. This is the alleged M40/L78. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] Huh?? There are 2 white 1970 SS/RS cars with incorrect stripes, one with Z/28 wheels and the other with correct rally wheels but the later is the supposedly L78/M40. What the...????? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif Rick H. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] No, Different car. This is the alleged M40/L78. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif [/ QUOTE ] Huh?? There are 2 white 1970 SS/RS cars with incorrect stripes, one with Z/28 wheels and the other with correct rally wheels but the later is the supposedly L78/M40. What the...????? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif Rick H. [/ QUOTE ] This has always been the car in question... the other car from Volo has nothing to do with this thread. Different cars, similar color combo. Edit: The car in question has its Z21 style trim in place... Volo's does not. The car in question has stripes that stop mid way to the endura nose, Volo's stripes run to the endura nose. |
Re: 70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD
Whatever, I guess my point is when I see things that are incorrect I start to question the authenticity of the car.
Maybe the buildsheet will show the Z/28 stripes as well. That would answer a ton of other questions. Of course nobody answered my post asking if someone can come look at the car. Or is it a national secret and will cost $5k to look at it?! Rick H. |
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