Russo and Steele auction
 

Andy requested that I remove the posts concerning his disagreement with Russo and Steele. He and Drew are talking and on track to work things out.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Good to hear. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Great news!.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif
~ Pete

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Great job guys! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

We'll all look forward to hear of a resolve that satisfies both sides! or not hear anything at all, that's OK too! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I'm glad to hear that Andy and Drew are talking to resolve their differences but I want to bring another irregularity at the Scotsdale R&S aution to the attention of the members here. I visit the Boss302 Registry infrequently but noticed this thread today.

http://www.boss302.com/smf/index.php?topic=35661.0

After watching the videos one of the many things that disturbed me was the auctioneer chanting in an effort to get the consignor to remove the reserve while Drew is bending his ear. The hammer sold/no sale of this car coupled with Andy's experience leaves me with a rather bad taste in my mouth. Maybe there is some explanation for this but it sure looks like a rigged carnival game from my seat. I'm not one to spread rumors or bad mouth others but I do believe....

"An educated consumer is the best customer"

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Here's a link to another unfortunate story concerning the Scottsdale R&S auction

http://www.racinboys.com/home/video_view/video_id/714

The video is quite long...you can skip the interview with Drew about the current market conditions and start watching at 11:45 into the video.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Wow this puts a black eye on all involved in this fiasco. This looks like the car in question, based on the interview.

http://www.texasmusclecars.com/webte...spx?IID=257162

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

WOW! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Sounds too me like R&S bought a Boss if the seller was not aware of the shill bidding?

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I want to shime in before things get heated again.. I dont know about the other deals but after talking to Drew Im sure he is dealing with them the best he can..

Ive acutally talked to Drew twice now and both times he was easy to talk to and definately cares about customer satisfaction to take the time and mend fences.

I dont want to go in the terms of our deal but IM COMPLETELY SATISFIED and will 100% comtinue to do business with Russo and Steele. By talking with Drew I could really feel he cares about his business and the hobby and the way things are run, He is a stand up guy in my eyes and really came across as a true car enthusiast that is fortunate enough make some money doing what he loves.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I watched that interview and while it is too bad the car didn't sell for what he thought his reserve was he should have read the contract. The reserve is not fine print. It is one of the main points of the contract and to try and raise it when the car is on the block is absurd. What if every seller wanted to raise their reserve while their car was on the block ? Yes the dealer that bought it could have handeled it better but he is supposed to give the car back because the seller didn't pay attention to the probably LARGE print in the contract ? He finally figures this out when the car is actually on the block ? The inteview with Gaines and the other guy mentions how they think the sellers should be able to raise their reserve during the auction since they can lower it. The auction houses decide on what cars they accept for their auction based on if they think the reserve prices are realistic. That is decided months in advance. If I get them to take my crappy car because they know it will sell at my 5K reserve then I change it to 50K on auction day, I just screwed the auction house and everyone else.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I fully expect this post to dissappear.............

Regarding both B/J and R/S I am interested in learning why so many people condone fabricated clones, with misc alledged "documentation" being passed off as original and survivors.

Why do most people turn a blind eye on cars that are obvious repaints, incorrect "original" parts and have Photoshop documentation........

I can understand the auctioneers greed, the sellers greed....but to hear the Speed Channel announcers tout the low milage, the documentation, and ALL the originality, is just so upsetting to me, knowing otherwise.
Why isnt there litagation and public outcry to hold down some, if not all of these sellers..........

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

[ QUOTE ]
......I dont want to go in the terms of our deal but IM COMPLETELY SATISFIED and will 100% comtinue to do business with Russo and Steele..........

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool..glad to see things worked out. The club can always use an extra $2100.00. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I am very sorry to hear anyone takes a hit like that. Sure, you are selling the car to feed hungry kids. I believe that people can fall on hard times and have to sell their prized possesion. That sucks.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gifI do not believe I can sign a contract that says $100,000.00
when I MUST HAVE $140,000.00. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

I can't hang around for five days and not check my contract. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

I can't go to the block without my contract !! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

As far as the buyer (dealer) being a man of his word, ..... please ! He sells used cars!! He is one of the many who take advantage of persons in this hobby (though he bought the car legally and fairly).
This is a sad fact of life. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

This situation does not appear to be the auction house excercising their right to an advantage in a gray area.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

the post above is in reference to the video link on first page.( edit time elapsed, sorry)



[ QUOTE ]
....but to hear the Speed Channel announcers tout the low milage, the documentation, and ALL the originality, is just so upsetting to me, knowing otherwise........... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those SPEED guys are only reading from que cards and information sheets that are provided by the auction house based on the sellers description. Mike Joy is NOT part of the conspiracy to sell you a 427 with a six banger vin. Any of his other color commentary is surely based on his vast knowledge of that make and model car, not the particular specimen on the block!!

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Andy...see, I told you so! Awesome! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

[ QUOTE ]
I watched that interview and while it is too bad the car didn't sell for what he thought his reserve was he should have read the contract. The reserve is not fine print. It is one of the main points of the contract and to try and raise it when the car is on the block is absurd. What if every seller wanted to raise their reserve while their car was on the block ? Yes the dealer that bought it could have handeled it better but he is supposed to give the car back because the seller didn't pay attention to the probably LARGE print in the contract ? He finally figures this out when the car is actually on the block ? The inteview with Gaines and the other guy mentions how they think the sellers should be able to raise their reserve during the auction since they can lower it. The auction houses decide on what cars they accept for their auction based on if they think the reserve prices are realistic. That is decided months in advance. If I get them to take my crappy car because they know it will sell at my 5K reserve then I change it to 50K on auction day, I just screwed the auction house and everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif agreed

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I agree with Charley on this one too.. he signed the contract stating it was a 100K reserve. If he was too dumb to proof read it before signing it, that's his own fault...The other part I don't get is that he says the owner had the car for 28 years, and that they did all the repair work on the car for free, yet the owner "had more than 100k in it and would be taking a loss"...how's that?

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I guess he paid more than $100k for it 28 years ago! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

What a Moron. (Him, not you! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif )

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Hard to overlook the big bold reserve box. https://www.yenko.net/attachments/320...1_edited-1.jpg

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

.. https://www.yenko.net/attachments/320416-P1010002.JPG

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

... https://www.yenko.net/attachments/320417-P1010003.JPG

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

.... https://www.yenko.net/attachments/320418-P1010004.JPG

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

...... https://www.yenko.net/attachments/320419-P1010005.JPG

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

[ QUOTE ]
...... https://www.yenko.net/attachments/320419-P1010005.JPG

[/ QUOTE ]

no sympathy if you signed that and say you didn't see the reserve https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Wait,
Which car are we disucssing? If you sign a paper with a 100k reserve, then I agree, you can't raise it later. You can opt to lower it, but not raise it, imo.

What's up with the BOSS story of RS shill bidding the car and winning the auction? Am I misunderstanding that?

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Russo and Steele, as well as most of the Auctions which have a reserve retain the contractual ability to advance a bid up to, but not in excess of the Reserve.

They also have an arbitration clause to help settle disagreements and misunderstandings, if needed.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Wow! Did not know that. So, did they or did they not bid the car (BOSS) higher than the reserve, based on the lowered reserve? If so, wonder what the contract says about that. Seems like these auctions are way too complicated........

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

[ QUOTE ]
Russo and Steele, as well as most of the Auctions which have a reserve retain the contractual ability to advance a bid up to, but not in excess of the Reserve.


[/ QUOTE ] "contractual ability to advance a bid" Is that the new term for shill bidding???

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I hate to put you in the middle here Charley....

The posting of the consignment form for the Shelby GT500 does provide a visual aid for us all as to what the consignors agreed to and signed. I agree with Charley and others that all though it's sad that a mistake was made the seller had every opportunity to correct it.

In regards to the Boss 429...I can see from the consignment form that the seller had a reserve of 300K and agreed to lower that reserve while the car was on the block. My guess is the consignment agreement allows the auction house to advance the bid up to the reserve amount and the auctioneer didn't remember or recognize the winning bidder as a fellow employee. If I'm right in that assumption then it is a rigged carnival game and R & S should have to buy the car. You play with fire and you get burned! If I'm off base and a retraction and apology is warranted then one will be forthcoming. But as of now I don't see anything to change my mind.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Drew had also sent me text but it came in a form I couldn't open till now. Here is his text.


Wow, this is starting to be a full time job… As I have said before, I have been at this a LONG time. Following 5 years as the GM at Barrett-Jackson and now 8 years at the helm of Russo and Steele, there is simply a complaint, story, dispute, or crying or whining, pissing and moaning I have not heard.



My track record and reputation in this hobby and the passion and integrity with which Russo and Steele operates is evidenced by the many strong relationships we maintain with our clients and the success we have enjoyed. In all the years I have been doing this, having consummated thousands of transactions, I have only ever had ONE go to court. Actually, this was back with B-J and we prevailed.



As quick-bowtie, Mr. Distad has posted. We have been able to reach an amicable agreement and keep the most valuable thing there is in this hobby, a relationship. Cars don’t talk, have feelings, or care. Enthusiasts do. And as one, so do I.



If I may be so bold, let me state that first and foremost, I am an enthusiast. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I was very fortunate to have “paid my bills” long ago. I do Russo and Steele because we truly love the hobby. Very few, if any of my contemporaries can say the same… Yes, it is wonderful to have a company that can sustain its self and pay the bills “playing with old cars” but let me be abundantly clear; I do this because I love the cars, but more importantly, I enjoy the relationships I have with many fellow enthusiasts. I love my collection of cars. I vintage race in club events, exhibit my cars when I can to share with others, and hell, I even parked my Boss 429 in the living room! (yes, Josephine is pretty cool) Suffice it to say, I am an enthusiast and collector as well.



BOTH of these ‘new issues’ 1) Jeff Yergovich of R+A Motorsports and 2) Chris Burns from Santa Barbra Car Company are as a result of consignors failing to read, understand and fulfill THEIR obligations when selling THEIR car at auction. Both are “cut and dried”. Both are subject to the contract that ALL auction company’s have and is basically “boiler plate” language.



The 1970 Blue Boss 429, of Mr. Burns simply did NOT meet the Reserve price. By law (and some other auction companies practices of No Reserve were the reason for these laws) the auction house has to divulge to its sellers the following:



Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.



This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.



Simply put, the Boss did not sell, as the Reserve was $300,000.



Nothing is worse than “working to get the reserve for a seller” only to have him “pull your shorts down” as he lifts his reserve on the block at $245,000 – for $65K less! This occurred in this instance when the above contract clause was being utilized on BEHALF of the seller in an attempt to get the seller what he said he wanted. If indeed he was wiling to take a substantial amount less, than there is only two reasons why he “shot high” on the reserve; 1) to “make us work harder” to sell the car. Anyone who has been to my auction knows this is impossible to do, since my gang works the hardest of any on the planet. 2) to have a high reserve to allow the seller to “grind” a negotiation on the block for less than the stated 10% reserve. In all my years of doing this, these are the ONLY two reasons, all others are delusions.



As for the 1968 Shelby GT500KR Fastback of Mr. Yergovich, this one is even simpler. He consigned the car with a $100,000 Reserve. It is these contracts that my staff has on the auction block. We sold the car for (coincidentally) 100 grand, met his reserve and paid him the net. If Mr. Yergovich made a mistake on his paperwork, this is not my fault. To go jumping around on my auction block saying you want more in the brief time the car is on an auction block, with the “bullets flying” and thinking you are going to then verbally raise your reserve at this chaotic moment is simply ludicrous.



I have sent a PDF of both Consignment Agreements along with this text. If they can be posted, that would be nice, since there leaves no questions.



Lets move on guys. When there are hundreds of thousands of dollars in motion, my most sincere suggestion to all fellow enthusiasts is to know your responsibilities and obligations.



Similar to when a Cop pulls you over for doing 105 mph on the freeway, the excuse of “I did not know” will not get you out of the ticket.



As I have run out of cheese and crackers, this will be my last post, I just do not have any left or the “whine”.



Drew Alcazar

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

I had no idea that an auction company could legally shill bid! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif
Are bidders aware that they are bidding against the house? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

-------Jim,,,Company bidding happens only up to the reserve, if necessary. Since the reserve is presumably what the owner wants, the car will not be sold for less, unless negotiated. I dont think a bidder is bidding against the house if the car cant get sold until the car reaches the reserve......Bill S

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Wow! This is fascinating stuff. IF I read Drew's post correctly as posted by Charley? The auction house in writing advises the seller it has the right to "advance the bidding up to the reserve". I am not going to speculate how the bidding is "advanced" but I wonder if the bidders agreement states that the auction house can "advance" the bidding to a cars non disclosed reserve?

I have signed up to bid at a few auctions RS not being one of them and never noticed language to that effect advising me that as a bidder I won't be aware of the actual reserve prior to bidding and that the auction house can "advance" the bidding to the reserve???

This is all news to me and I have been licensed to practice law since 1983? I recall not long ago a couple of high end art auction house's running into some problems. Looks like I need to do a little research and learn a little more about the laws auction houses are subject too. Charley if Drew knows of a case sanctioning this contractual language could you ask him for the name? The whole thing just fascinates the heck out of me? Or am I misinterpreting his comments? Seems like the language implies artificial means are used by the auction house to get the price to the reserve? Why not just state the reserve is X amount of dollars and start there? Is advancing the bidding creating an illusion of some sort? Very possible I am just not reading Drew's comments the way they were intended. Because I can't see how employee's of an auction house or other auction house designee's who are unable to purchase the car bidding on a car up to it's reserve is anything other than an illusion that actual bidders exist and appear willing to pay up to a cars reserve? However nothing forces a prospective bidder to pay over reserve but I wonder if the bidder is led to believe the car is worth X amount of dollars by the bidding being advanced???

Please note no disrespect to Drew and his company is intended by this query. He is great for taking the time to chat with us and solve Quick Bow tie's issues. Really a first class neat thing to do. I am just baffled or misreading the post I guess. I am easily confused so no disrespect intended.

Charley you are the experienced expert here with this stuff what am I not understanding? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller."

I guess you really need to know the value of what you are buying and stick to that number.

I do not think the auction houses should be able to go up against against buyers with purely fictitous bidders. It is sad that they go to these lenghs to sell a car.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just state the reserve is X amount of dollars and start there?

[/ QUOTE ] To get more bidder excitement. People dont like to get outbid,so it gets/keeps more players in the game that pay more than they intended to. Plus if you see a ZL1 there for a 100K starting bid you may think you have a chance at 300/400K, but if it has a 700K reserve,youd stay home.People always want things more when others also want them. You know the word "shill" originated many years ago when the circuses had indoor events. 45 to 50 people would wait in a false "line" acting excited to get into the event and people coming "out" of the show acting the same way . They were all employees of the circus. After getting inaide people that Paid to get in wondered why so many people were in line trying to get in,and large lines leaving when there were only a handful of people inside.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

Les you have it right!

The law requires the auction house to disclose to the consignor that they have the right to advance the bid up to the reserve amount, but there is no requirement that they make this unethical (IMO) practice part of their business practice....they choose to do it! The bidders agreement makes no mention of the practice nor does the Speed Channel or ESPN when they televise the auction. It sure would add another dimension to watching it on TV and trying to figure who's the shill bidder and who's real. All we would need then is Kitty Carlyle and Soupy Sales asking some questions.

Makes me wonder if Andy hadn't yelled so quickly and so loud if the result would have been different. I think the characterization of these complaints as "whine" is very telling about R&S's attitude towards customer service after the sale. I believe I could discern the real story while listening to Clemens and McNamee and the same goes here.

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

[ QUOTE ]
The law requires the auction house to disclose to the consignor that they have the right to advance the bid up to the reserve amount,

[/ QUOTE ] Will someone here bid up my COPO motor on ebay , Since im aware you are doing it we wont have to tell the bidders https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

My feeling on this is that shill bidding does not reflect the actual market value of a particular car at a particular time. If the seller sets the reserve of his car at $300,000, and real people in the audience only bid it up to $225,000, this would then indicate that the market has spoken. The seller can take his car back home and wait for more advantageous times, or decide that his car is not as valuable as he thought.
A real person bidding against the house will pay an artificial market value for that car.
Maybe that's an over-simplification, but the more I learn about these auction houses, the more I'm soured on the whole process.
My $.02 anyway.
John

Re: Russo and Steele auction
 

All of the auction houses are nothing more than smoke and mirrors or better known as a horse and pony show as is the circus.