Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Now this is a discussion board...so nobody get mad..OK? Just give your opinions...as to relative value..ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL. Options, color, condtion...

Which car has more dollar value [and by how much?]..a 1969 GTO Judge Ram Air III or a 1969 Chevelle SS L-78 both 4-speeds.. Let's assume both are documented numbers matching, pedigree cerified. Options similar.

Now I either past or present have owned these cars and have always wondered if the market values them differently...What do you think?

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Good question Jim - should generate some lively conversation. Would recommend asking same question on a Poncho site.

my 2 pennies: these 2 cars should be nearly similar in market value. Whereas the Judge option is special and adds value the hypothetical GTO does not have the top-of-the-line RPO engine (RAIII vs. RAIV) and in my opinion does not perform nearly as well as the solid lifter, Holley topped, aluminum intaked, forged crank, etc found in the L78. In short, the Judge option and the L78 option nearly cancel each other out. Overall though, Chevys generally command better prices than equivalent Ponchos. Slight edge to the L78 Chevelle by 5%.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Both cars are very popular. The lower production numbers on the Judge. As well as PHS paperwork. Push the price up. Earl

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Personally, I feel both would be of equal value, in my eyes. Assuming roughly equivalent pedigrees. I happen to like both cars equally well, but I'm sure the majority would favor the Chevelle.

Ask a Pontiac person and I'm sure you'll get a different answer.

Which one are you selling? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/ooo.gif

Phil Woj.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

I vote for the obvious faster car.....The 1969 L78 Chevelle!

Dan.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Its not faster than a Ram Air IV https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif
Definetly not as good looking as a judge! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

I'm going out on a limb here and say...a carousel red 1969 GTO is the singularly most recognizable muscle car of all time.

People who don't know what a muscle car even is...know an orange '69 Judge IS a Muscle Car.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

While the L-78 MIGHT be faster, the Judge is, as was said, iconic and a better car (close, but the Ponchos, were a little nicer). I think the chance of fraud in Chevys and the bullet proof PHS of Pontiacs, swings the price in favor of the judge by %10 maybe more in some cases.

My $.02

John https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
While the L-78 MIGHT be faster, the Judge is, as was said, iconic and a better car (close, but the Ponchos, were a little nicer). I think the chance of fraud in Chevys and the bullet proof PHS of Pontiacs, swings the price in favor of the judge by %10 maybe more in some cases.

My $.02

John https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

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Oh there isn't any MIGHT about it...my L-78 is the fastest bone stock muscle car I've ever ridden in..so much faster than my Ram air III Judge's it isn't worth the comparison..as as far as the paper work goes..as mentioned we are assuming paperwork is bulletproof for this comparo.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh there isn't any MIGHT about it...my L-78 is the fastest bone stock muscle car I've ever ridden in..so much faster than my Ram air III Judge's it isn't worth the comparison..as as far as the paper work goes..as mentioned we are assuming paperwork is bulletproof for this comparo.

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Hmmm...well, coming from the Pontiac camp https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif, I have to disagree. Road tests of the day showed the 68/69-L78 Chevelle was a low 14 second car, at best. The 69 RAIII Judge was also a low 14 second car. They were about the same.

Chevelle Tests - Hot Cars Magazine - 1969 L78 Chevelle SS - February 1969 - 14.07/101 mph, Popular Hot Rodding - 1968 L78 SS Chevelle - high 13's, with slicks.

The 69 RAIII Judge was also a low 14 second car, high 13's with slicks. Biggest difference is that L-78 shortblock was MUCH stronger than the Pontiac RAIII.

I'd like to point out too that 1/4 mile times aren't exactly a measure for collector value. If it were, then a 1989 Turbo Trans Am would be worth more than a 70 Hemi Cuda. It's the image the car conveys, and in this case, I'd have to say the Judge would be worth more because it's regarded as a iconic Musclecar. It's also a big bonus that Pontiacs can get PHS documentation, and when it comes to a Judge, that makes ALL the difference in the world. Jim Mattison (PHS) stated that 40% of all the requests he gets for GTO documentation turn out to be a cloned Lemans. As for Judges, I'd estimate that 80% of all 69 Judges are standard GTO's or Lemans's. It's easy to clone a Judge - stickers and a wing, and you have it (visually at least). The 69 Judge is just far more identifiable to the average collector. It's pop art, it's a sign of the Musclecar Era, and therefore tends to bring a few more $$$ than a 69 Chevelle SS.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Don't believe everything you read in magazines..I've owned 'em.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

I've owned a balanced and blueprinted '68 Ram Air Firebird back in '68, a slightly warmed over 455 Lemans that was definitely qicker than our L78 Chevelle in a side by side run, a '72 Chevelle with a '68 MQ code L78, and have a '69 L78 Chevelle. Performance wise the Pontiac power performed the best. The 'bird could beat a local 427 powered '68 Chevelle by about a car length. For all out performance, the L78 probably has more potential.
Judge prices have gone sky high in the last few years. PHS probably has a lot to do with it. Even though the Pontiac is the rarer beast, there is an awfully strong Chevelle following that keeps the L78 prices up. Guaranteed, you won't have trouble selling either.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't believe everything you read in magazines..I've owned 'em.

[/ QUOTE ]I also have had both cars at numerous times and I can honestly tell you that a Ram III car and an L78 are very close when the Ram III car has 390's. An L78 is not that fast when they only have 355's Trust me Im not trying to start a fire here and for the record I really respect L78 cars But they are not as fast as you think. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going out on a limb here and say...a carousel red 1969 GTO is the singularly most recognizable muscle car of all time.

People who don't know what a muscle car even is...know an orange '69 Judge IS a Muscle Car.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a pretty flimsy limb your dangling from and a all together different topic. Other than the "The Judge" sticker this car can be confused with any GTO. I think a 71 billboard Hemicuda with a shaker owns the rights to most identifiable musclecar. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

and.....were off!

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Hands down the 1969 Yenko Camaro.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

I would take the GTO.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hands down the 1969 Yenko Camaro.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many casual musclecar fans can tell a 68 Camaro with a 69 Yenko stripe apart? Quad headlights on the Cuda give it a more distinct visual advantage. Uh oh, i took a shot at a Yenko on a Yenko board https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

I defer to the 2nd post in this thread beginning with....

Good question Jim - should generate some lively conversation..... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

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Hands down the 1969 Yenko Camaro.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many casual musclecar fans can tell a 68 Camaro with a 69 Yenko stripe apart? Quad headlights on the Cuda give it a more distinct visual advantage. Uh oh, i took a shot at a Yenko on a Yenko board https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

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Easy..'69 was the only year the Camaro got the stripe. And talk about a visual effect, when they see Yenko stripes, they know it is 427CI, 450 HP.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

I was talking about a 68 Camaro wearing a 69 Yenko stripe. 71 Cuda can't be confused with any other car. Besides, Plymouth Superbird and Dodge Daytona probally end this discussion https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif anyways.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

A 1969 Judge is an icon of the Musclecar Era. The fact that The Judge option was nothing more than stickers, stripes, and a rear wing are meaningless actually. The 69 Yenko Camaro was nothing but a COPO 427, with added stripes and some special emblems (same as a Judge), and the Yenko Camaro is also an huge icon of the Musclecar Era.

It's not just the equipment under the hood, it's how recognizable it is to regular (non-collector) people, as well as hard core collectors. A Carousel Red 69 GTO Judge is far more recognizable than a 69 Chevelle SS396. Doesn't make it better or faster, it's just more identifiable to enthusiasts, and that makes them more sought after.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Well, I can say this much. I just got back from a drive in my 69 Chevelle with the L78, 4 speed, 3;73's, smog, stock exhaust. It goes pretty dang good! I had the grins all the time I was driving it!

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

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Well, I can say this much. I just got back from a drive in my 69 Chevelle with the L78, 4 speed, 3;73's, smog, stock exhaust. It goes pretty dang good! I had the grins all the time I was driving it!

[/ QUOTE ]


Hey Tony, an old Nova with a 427 can produce some grins too! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Wasn't a Stage 1 Buick the fastest muclecar out of the gates? I know it definitely had the most torque...

I'd take an L78 Nova... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Now we are getting way off base https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now we are getting way off base https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


LOL....

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Why don`t we just settle this at SCR11.... Tony (TDW) would you be willing to bring your 1969 L78 Chevelle and race it at SCR11 against a Carousel Red 69 GTO Ram Air III? Now who`s got a Carousel Red 69 GTO Ram Air III? Anyone, anyone? They would obviously need to be evenly matched....4 speeds and similar rear gears, etc.

Dan.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Who's bringing the Stage 1? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why don`t we just settle this at SCR11.... Tony (TDW) would you be willing to bring your 1969 L78 Chevelle and race it at SCR11 against a Carousel Red 69 GTO Ram Air III? Now who`s got a Carousel Red 69 GTO Ram Air III? Anyone, anyone? They would obviously need to be evenly matched....4 speeds and similar rear gears, etc.

Dan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and make SURE the Goat is C. Red or the whole thing is off! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question.
 

Yeah, and make SURE the Goat is C. Red or the whole thing is off!

Sam,

I`m just trying to stay true with the theme and be politically correct....because you know them Pontiac Boys will be https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/mad.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Dan.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question.
 

I believe at the last Pure Stocks, a 69 Chevelle SS396 and a 69 RAIII Judge were both low 13's.

Subject: Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question.
 

I like them both about the same. But the L78 Chevelle did not have cool commercials with cool bands like this that I remember. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Kurt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vrc2b5qtLk

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and make SURE the Goat is C. Red or the whole thing is off!

Sam,

I`m just trying to stay true with the theme and be politically correct....because you know them Pontiac Boys will be https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/mad.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Dan.

[/ QUOTE ] I doubt that!! In fact I think you might just change your screen name to GTO DAN LOL https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif
MAYBE THIS SHOULD BE THE PRIZE https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question.
 

I think I hit a Nerve!

That Prize looks likes it painted "Monaco Orange" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Dan.

Re: Subject: Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like them both about the same. But the L78 Chevelle did not have cool commercials with cool bands like this that I remember. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Kurt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Vrc2b5qtLk

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of hard to argue with that logic! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Hands down the 1969 Yenko Camaro.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many casual musclecar fans can tell a 68 Camaro with a 69 Yenko stripe apart?

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy..'69 was the only year the Camaro got the stripe. And talk about a visual effect, when they see Yenko stripes, they know it is 427CI, 450 HP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please be serious..who is they? Your grandmother doesn't know a 427 from a Briggs and Stratton...That old gal sees a '69 Judge in Orange with that spoiler on the back..funny wheels..stripes...Ram Air III exhaust..and trust me..she knows it's not a LeMans...

a Yenko? Give me a break WTF is that..my paperboy has one of those..same color too, got the wheels fron JC Penney...10 of 'em at the Bobs Big Boy on a saturday night...like she can tell the diff... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

Plymouth Superbird makes a 69 Judge look like a Tempest with stripes and decals. 3 foot wing on a street makes this the most recognizable musclecar ever!

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

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Plymouth Superbird makes a 69 Judge look like a Tempest with stripes and decals. 3 foot wing on a street makes this the most recognizable musclecar ever!

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, Grandma thinks that wing is a tow bar and how many did they make? 1900? C'mon most of those had dog dishers, like taxi-cabs..boring...

There was an Orange '69 Judge in every showroom.

Unless grandma had a grandson named Cale, she had no clue what that damn Superbird was...

The '69 Judge IS the peoples Muscle Car of all time.

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

" <font color="orange"> The '69 Judge IS the peoples Muscle Car of all time. </font> "

Gee Jim, I feel like I've been set up. Seems like you already had the answer to your own original question. Here I thought you were looking for opinions. And when did the "Muscle Car of all time" get a coat of Carousel Red paint? Must have missed that in your 1st post. And while you're at it why not make the Chevelle you are comparing it to a gray primer paint for grins and giggles. Next time you ask for an opinion please provide your opinion 1st so we don't provide anything to the contrary. Then "nobody get(s) mad". https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: Just a hypothetical muscle car value question...
 

[ QUOTE ]
" <font color="orange"> The '69 Judge IS the peoples Muscle Car of all time. </font> "

Gee Jim, I feel like I've been set up. Seems like you already had the answer to your own original question. Here I thought you were looking for opinions. And when did the "Muscle Car of all time" get a coat of Carousel Red paint? Must have missed that in your 1st post. And while you're at it why not make the Chevelle you are comparing it to a gray primer paint for grins and giggles. Next time you ask for an opinion please provide your opinion 1st so we don't provide anything to the contrary. Then "nobody get(s) mad". https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif