The Supercar Registry

The Supercar Registry (https://www.yenko.net/forum/index.php)
-   COPO - United States (https://www.yenko.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=94)
-   -   Introducing........RAT’S NEST (https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=149308)

R68GTO 06-09-2018 11:32 PM

Introducing........RAT’S NEST
 
Newly discovered / now MacNeish certified COPO from where else……..Ohio. I’m a GTO guy as you can see by my sig but always wanted a 69 Camaro. Started seriously looking last fall to get a gauge on pricing, condition, etc. I really wanted an RS/Z28 but found those all to be more than I wanted to spend.
I recalled a conversation I had with a coworker back in the early 2000’s about a Camaro he owned with low miles. We discussed the car off/on over the next few years - I only saw the car once briefly at a local car show. Black Camaro with gold Z28 stripes and an automatic. I thought to myself at that time - eh, not a real Z since it was an auto. The coworker had retired years ago so we lost touch. Fast-forward 15 years……through a mutual coworker I got his number and gave him a call. He still had the car, but didn’t want to sell it. We discussed the car and he told me that he owned it since the early 1980’s it had a 427 / turbo 400 and it only had 15,000 original miles. He was not interested in selling it.
I told him that if he ever decided to sell it, to give me a call. For the next week, I couldn’t get this car off my mind thinking that even though it was an automatic (I wanted a 4 speed), it would be a great car to build off of if the low mileage claim was true……which I was very skeptical about. The next weekend I called him to ask if I could just come look at it and hopefully I would see something I didn’t want so I could stop thinking about it since he didn’t want to sell anyway. He agreed so I went the following weekend. Stay tuned....:wink:

bbbentley 06-10-2018 01:48 AM

I know a little about the car and this is going to be great! Trust me.

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-10-2018 02:00 AM

You got the PHS Invoice for it yet ? :nonewfolder:

R68GTO 06-10-2018 12:14 PM

Not yet BVZ....Mattison is having trouble finding his Norwood stuff:wink::wink:

Bill Pritchard 06-10-2018 05:23 PM

This sounds very interesting :naughty:

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-10-2018 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R68GTO (Post 1404017)
....Mattison is having trouble finding his Norwood stuff:wink::wink:

So typical , and just when you needed him most.

I also have an old affliction with 69 Camaro.
Comes and Goes , have been able to keep it moderated without meds- so far.
Seems like unaware COPO's are the only hope for a poor boy anymore.
Hope you scored a sweet deal.

We are going to lose interest if you dont at least tell us what colors the car originally was ! Goldenrod ? Carousel ? Matador ?

The Boss 06-10-2018 09:16 PM

In for the ride...

R68GTO 06-10-2018 10:12 PM

3 Attachment(s)
The owner had mentioned to me years ago that he sometimes wondered if it might be a COPO but didn’t think it was (not original engine) and even had someone come look at it and determined that it wasn’t. With that nugget of info in my head I did some research on what to look for in a COPO car. Being a novice (I still am), I was looking for a curve neck radiator, big block heater core, disc brakes, 140 mph speedo, 12 bolt BE rear end.
When I saw the car and started looking it over, I fairly quickly believed it was true a low mileage car. The owner stated it was rust free and had all original interior. The interior certainly looked the part and the body was pretty rust free with just a couple of spots that looked a little funky in the rear inner wheel houses. Rockers and floor/trunk pans looked perfect. It had a few of the COPO signs I was looking for (disc brakes, BB heater core) but was missing others (curve neck radiator, 12 bolt rear, 140 speedo). He again mentioned the COPO possibility but again dismissed it since he had a local “car guy” check it out - that guy told him it was a small block car. Here’s what the car looked like when I inspected it in his garage.

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-11-2018 05:38 PM

Man that car really is in nice shape top to bottom. (saw picture of stone lodged in leaf spring shackle)
Looks more like a well kept NC car than a lifelong Ohio resident.

Interior speaks for itself , and the mileage.

The previous owner really took great care of it.
He will be SICK when/if he gets news of the central office deal.

Have never heard anyone say anything negative about LeMans Blue .
Believe you're in pretty good shape with this Chevrolet :biggthumpup:

Unreal 06-12-2018 06:58 PM

For the future, most COPOs did not have the 140MPH speedo. All of Yenko-ordered COPOs for conversion (ie adding badges and stripes) were "Double COPO" (9561 and 9737) as well as a few other COPOs. However most of the estimated 1000 COPOs had standard Camaro 120 MPH speedos.

m22mike 06-12-2018 08:39 PM

Just curious here, where do you get the information that "most" COPO Camaro's were not double COPO's ?

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-12-2018 09:35 PM

RE : 9737

I found out about the - COPO 9737 Sports Car Conversion Pkg/Eqpt - not too long ago.
Am also a COPO/Yenko - rookie/novice .

As that it wasn't inclusive part of Standard Base 9561 COPO - 427cid Pkg/Eqpt , as far as what any Chevrolet dealer could have ordered , at minimum requirement.

Most info found generally stated 9737 :
140 mph speedo
15" wheels
Larger front sway bar
*Later cars sometimes included an In-Dash Tach with Center Fuel Gauge

Some info has also given alternatives within the 9737 content - with option price reflecting type of content.
Such as
Plain Wheels versus Rally Wheels
In-Dash Tach versus No Tach

And seen different sources of info stating conflicting size of front bar.
Most seem to say 13/16 , with 11/16 as standard.

Could depend on what they are trying to use to measure with.
But seen it stated as 7/8 , 15/16 , 1" , 1-1/8"
Sounds like as long as a 3/4" open end wrench won't slip over it - its in the game.

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-12-2018 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m22mike (Post 1404379)
Just curious here, where do you get the information that "most" COPO Camaro's were not double COPO's ?

I think when i looked at the COPO Registry here , they mentioned adding more blocks to the info input , to help decipher amount of Double / Triple COPO's , that were Non-Yenko COPO's.

Would have to look back again and see where that stands.

Or have you already done that Mike ?
just asking

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-12-2018 10:27 PM

There are currently more 69 Camaro Yenko/COPO cars accounted for in the Registry , than there are all other 69 Camaro COPO cars combined.

As to say - currently - a Non-Yenko COPO Camaro is rarer than a Yenko.
In terms of what is "documented" within the Registry.
Not by Logic , just by what is still known to be alive within the Registry.

That data would currently put Double COPO's ahead instantly , at minimum.
Since all Yenko's were Doubles , at minimum.

By Logic ,
there are still about another 100+/- un-registered Yenko's.
And about another 700 +/- un-registered Non-Yenko's .

I would be inclined to agree with UnReal's speculation , that of the 800 +/- Total Non-Yenko cars , most were probably 9561 , alone.
Without 9737 or 9511.
:stupid:

Red is being so
s
l
o
w
giving details on his car , we have to pass the time here somehow. :grin:

R68GTO 06-12-2018 10:49 PM

Continuing the story......
 
7 Attachment(s)
I asked him how it ran. He told me it ran great and was very fast. He told me he hadn’t driven it it two years but hopped in and fired it right up. Man, I tell you, the sound of that 427 firing up inside that closed garage (February in Ohio) made my heart pound - it was awesome! Now I really wanted this car! I wasn’t convinced it was a COPO but it was a very nice clean, original body/interior Camaro with a big block. So I asked him if he would sell it expecting another “not interested”. To my surprise, he said yes! I asked him “what’s your happy price”? I felt the number was reasonable for a low mileage running/driving Camaro, so we made the deal.
Here’s some shots of the car's home for about 35 years and more shots of the car when I got it home.

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-13-2018 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin (Post 1404390)
There are currently more 69 Camaro Yenko/COPO cars accounted for in the Registry , than there are all other 69 Camaro COPO cars combined.

That was way outdated information.
My fault and sorry about that.

More up to date is June 2014 =

160 non-Yenko COPOs
Of these 160 known cars, 29 are double COPOs.
So, approximately 18% of the known, non-Yenko COPOs are double COPOs.

*in addition , was asked about subtracting Berger cars also =

16 - so, we have only 13 9737 L72 cars registered that are not either Berger or Yenko. It appears that when we remove the Yenko & Berger cars, the percentage of 9737/9561 double COPOs drops to less then 10% of the 9561s produced.

bergy 06-13-2018 05:03 PM

are we off on a rabbit trail by any chance?

markinnaples 06-13-2018 07:14 PM

More pics and info, please!

R68GTO 06-13-2018 11:19 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Once I got it home, I began to spend more time online on this site, CRG, & Team Camaro looking for additional ways to confirm the COPO status. Armed with more info, I felt much more confident that I had indeed just bought a COPO. I pm’d a member on this site and gave some info regarding my suspicions. He recommended having Jerry Macneish look at it before posting stuff online just to make sure it was legit. I contacted Jerry to get the inspection set up. In the meantime, I continued to do more research and became close to 100% confident in the COPO status. Ordered the NCRS docs to get the selling dealer - Ray Bryant Chevrolet in Dayton, Ohio. I began to start researching ownership history by contacting the owner prior to the guy I bought the car from - got his name off the title. The mileage on the title stated 12,300 miles. That owner remembered the car well and promptly sent me a photo of the car when he had it back in the early 1980's. The pic below is that photo. He also gave me the name/number of the guy he bought it from.

1971ls6 06-13-2018 11:40 PM

Good luck! Looks like a straight neck radiator, does anybody remember if it was changed? If it is an original what does the tag say?

Does it have the large sway bar?

Is it an original hood? Is the wiring there for the cowl hood?

R68GTO 06-14-2018 12:37 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Owner #6 changed the radiator back in the late 70's. Said he pulled it out of a 68 Camaro big block. I'm not yet sure what the radiator is out of....my research says it's a service replacement????
Cowl hood is original and date stamped to line up with the car build date. Normal sway bar, 120 mph speedo. Pic below shows ZL2 hole occupied by the original wiring harness and grommet.

bergy 06-14-2018 10:25 AM

R68GTO has really educated himself with regard to the COPO attributes. Great job & cool car!!!

R68GTO 06-14-2018 04:27 PM

Thanks for the kind words Bergy!
Once I had the name/number of the next owner, this ultimately started a chain of prior owner to prior owner contact. I also took out Craigslist ads and Facebook posts looking for info on the car. Through some of those ads I was able to connect to several members on this site who all were very helpful in educating me on this COPO thing.
Through all of that, here’s where I’m at. I’ve phone interviewed (and took a ton of notes) the consecutive chain of seven prior owners or a close relative of an owner (2 are deceased). I believe I am only missing the original owner, more on that later. I have photos of the car from 4 of the 8 prior owners, two others say they have some, they just haven’t sent them yet. The 2nd owner (deceased) bought the car in 1970/71 from the original owner and fairly quickly turned it into a race car. That’s a cool story on its own!

markinnaples 06-14-2018 06:03 PM

Wow, great story so far and looking forward to hearing and seeing more. Good stuff!

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-14-2018 07:03 PM

:worship: Way to go Red !
Can imagine the excitement of learning/studying all the fine points and then have most of them fall right in place on the car in text-book condition as you went through it methodically.

:headbang:
Lots of Awesome all going in your favor !


Is that you standing in the doorway at previous owner garage ?

Guessing nobody from Owner #3 upwards knew it was a Faktry COPO ?

Have been reading a lot of the discovery threads for the past week in this COPO section. Your car is definitely speaking for itself more clearly than "most" of the others i have read about.

One of the best condition "previous owner unaware" COPO Camaro's that i can recall in those readings. I'm back to 2012 in the archives, currently.

R68GTO 06-14-2018 11:09 PM

The guy in front of the garage is the guy I bought it from. The guy I bought it from wondered aloud to me if it was a COPO several times over the years, the guy before him had no clue (at least he never mentioned it to me), everyone before that (we're now back to the late '70's) essentially said the same thing to me when they first understood what I was calling about "I wondered where that car went, did you know that was a factory 427 car?!" The best I can tell (this kinda amazes me), this car has never had anything but a 427 in it, ever.

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-15-2018 02:34 AM

Pure Fuggn Groooovy Man :wink:

Sure wasn't expecting to see any of my old Pontiac people to be on here posting up about a fresh find on a COPO when i recently signed up.

I'd rank this similar to finding a previously unknown 68 RamDeuce Firebird .


In one of these upcoming episodes tell us what kind of hardware is bolted together on that engine. Does it have rectangle port heads etc ...


Hey Boss , you bought any COPO or Yenko cars you need to come clean about ?
I know you'll buy a Chevrolet when the price is right. :blush:

The Boss 06-15-2018 05:03 PM

Sorry Todd, no COPO's, couple 1LE's and a few old Pontiacs. Nothing special. ;)

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-15-2018 07:31 PM

same old , same old over this way too.

i did try to influence a relative about the yella 69 copo project that is listed for sale on here, in Charlotte NC .
Think he just wants to grow old in peace and quiet.
to Hell with that :3gears:

R68GTO 06-15-2018 09:27 PM

Let's see where this RAT'S NEST thing comes from.....
 
1 Attachment(s)
Let’s get to that 2nd owner story so the title of this thread makes sense. Owner #5 gave me the name of the guy who used to race the car regularly (turned out to be the 2nd owner). He didn’t have a phone number but said the guy still ran a local business. I called that business looking for the guy. The kid on the other end said he never heard of that guy. I told him why I was calling, he said, “oh, I know who you're probably looking for!” He connected me with that guy (I’m keeping names out because I haven’t asked their permission yet). He told me it wasn’t his car, but was his best friend’s / drag racing buddy’s car and knew it well. I got the same “did you know that’s a factory 427 4 speed car?” statement. His buddy had passed away about 8 years ago. The guy I was speaking with actually painted the car shortly after his buddy bought it! In our conversation, I asked if he knew if the car had Camaro fender emblems when his buddy had it? He pretty quickly said yes. I asked how in the world he knew that so quick. He said cuz I have a picture of the car hanging above my desk! :cool2:He asked me if I could call him back around 5:30? He said that the 2nd owner’s son would be at his business then and I could then talk to both of them! Both guys are still drag racing today. :3gears:Of course, I called them back and we talked about an hour about the car. The son told me he clearly remembered when his Dad brought it home. Blue, dog dish hubcaps, no spoilers. He drove it on the street for a short time, then turned it into his drag car. The photo below is the one hanging above the guys desk. My first look at RAT’S NEST! :worship: The son still has his Dad’s racing helmet (painted to match the car) hanging in his garage!

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-15-2018 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R68GTO (Post 1404585)
.. everyone before that (we're now back to the late '70's) essentially said the same thing to me when they first understood what I was calling about "I wondered where that car went, did you know that was a factory 427 car?!"


Quote:

Originally Posted by R68GTO (Post 1404692)
I got the same “did you know that’s a factory 427 4 speed car?” statement.

Okay , i see what you did there. Not quite the same .
:hmmm:
oh no
no
No F'n Way !
say what ?
omg
:faint:

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-15-2018 10:48 PM

Rats Nest race car is Wicked and Wild
now its a bona-fide bull fighter !

... but Red
whats this about 427 - 4 speed

typo ?

or is hate about to take on a new dimension here :p

R68GTO 06-15-2018 11:22 PM

Owner #6 bought it as a roller, no engine or trans. He owned a 69 Camaro convertible with an automatic. He wanted a 4 speed in his vert, so he swapped the pedals and related stuff into his convertible and put the auto stuff in this car. This swap took place in the late '70's I think.
Rat's Nest is an original 4 speed car - 2nd owner's racing partner said it had a rock crusher in it when his buddy bought it with around 1,000 miles on the odometer. They raced it that way. At one point they trashed the tranny - had Doug Nash rebuild it with stronger internals is the story they gave me.

Mr70 06-16-2018 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R68GTO (Post 1404500)
Owner #6 changed the radiator back in the late 70's. Said he pulled it out of a 68 Camaro big block. I'm not yet sure what the radiator is out of....my research says it's a service replacement????
Cowl hood is original and date stamped to line up with the car build date. Normal sway bar, 120 mph speedo. Pic below shows ZL2 hole occupied by the original wiring harness and grommet.


Radiator #3017838 originally came on only:
*1968 & 1969 Novas with TH400.
*1970 Novas 396 with Auto Trans.
*1969 Camaros with TH400,but not when Heavy Duty cooling or Air Conditioning was ordered.

markinnaples 06-16-2018 02:56 AM

Awesome, just stinking awesome. Congratulations.

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-16-2018 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R68GTO (Post 1404705)
..Rat's Nest is an original 4 speed car - 2nd owner's racing partner said it had a rock crusher in it when his buddy bought it with around 1,000 miles on the odometer.

Damn
so you go out and find a Clean Solid Shiny low mile COPO with Peachy original interior thats been garage kept for at least the past 35 years.
Still has some form of 427 in it , running and driving , street legal.
You wanted a 4spd car but compromising on an Automatic.

The owner cant convince himself that it has hardly any chance of being a COPO , so you likely get a pretty handsome deal.
And thats all really sweet stuff.

Then its LeMans Blue, double bonus
Then its Faktry 4 speed possibly M22, quadruple bonus

We've been posting alongside on PY/Ames Pontiac Forum for many years,
so don't take this too personal,
but i'm going to need to hate you for at least 24 hours-maybe 48.

yep Congratulations
Damn

R68GTO 06-16-2018 09:23 AM

We've been posting alongside on PY/Ames Pontiac Forum for many years,
so don't take this too personal,
but i'm going to need to hate you for at least 24 hours-maybe 48.


LOL, not a problem, my Pontiac Brutha! I'm sure if I post something over on the PY site, I'll get "flamed" for buying a "Crapmaro" as some like to say over there.

I do kinda feel like I hit the "car guy lottery" with this one. I am a Pontiac guy mostly but have always liked all makes/models - really just a car guy, no politics, BS, etc.
I'm not going to try to make this car into something it's not, it's far from being a "survivor" / "numbers matching" or any of those other terms people like to throw out there to talk a car up. Having said that, it does have some great attributes beyond the COPO status which I will post about along the way on this thread. I'm sure I'll make some mistakes along the way since I'm still learning, but I hope the knowledgeable people on this site :youguysrock:will help me out when that happens.

R68GTO 06-17-2018 03:31 PM

Where are we at now?
 
3 Attachment(s)
Aside from what I already posted, here's some other info on the car.
Body: Original body panels date stamped to line up with build date. I can't find a date stamp on driver's fender. I can't read the date stamp on the trunk lid.
Quarter gills & wheel opening trim added by owner #6 when he painted it its current black/gold stripe paint scheme. Owner #7 added the drip rail moulding. Owner #2 added the spoilers.

Interior: Original interior (including carpet) except for dash pad. Owner #7 replaced the pad (bought at GM dealership) when he removed the pedestal tach that was bolted through it.

Engine: VIN stamped 427 "942" block cast in October of 1965. Owner #6 rebuilt it to L88 specs with hyd. lifters. Said he pulled it out of an Impala SS. 840 heads, 163 intake, List 4295 GM Holley carb (factory original, not a reman). Aftermarket distributor (Accel) and alternator (Powermaster).

Transmission: CM Turbo 400 built with a reverse manual valve body by owner #6. I think this codes out to a motorhome trans!:headbang: Should have a M22 Rockcrusher according to owner #2.

Rear end: original multi-leaf setup with vintage Lakewood traction bars & driveshaft loop. PE (so close, but yet so far!) code 10 bolt posi. Owner #8 (the guy I bought the car from) didn't like the 4.10 unit so he swapped a guy for this rear. Keep in mind, this guy drove the car a total of 3,500 miles in 35 years! Why on earth would you feel compelled to swap out the rear for drivability:no:! I do have a lead on where it went, but it's a weak lead, we'll see.
Here's some photos of seats and door panels. Enjoy!

Baron Von Zeppelin 06-19-2018 12:03 AM

Made it through the 48 hour LeMans Blue 4spd COPO hate period.

Engine sounds like a worthy keeper. Congratulations
That interior stuff is NICE !
Sorry about the axle deal. Those things sure have some proud prices on them. Good Luck

Rats Nest was a semi-popular nickname.
Found a few others -
69 Camaro X22 - Missouri - Brent396 owns it now
68 Nova COPO - Missouri
Mid 50's Vette

And saw where Black with Gold stripes was the original 69 Camaro ZL-1 pilot/proto paint scheme.


Keep the updates rolling
You and the Dynamic Duo found in Cali have the front center stage

R68GTO 06-19-2018 12:51 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Rats Nest was a semi-popular nickname.

Yeah, but do they have the legit evidence to back it up?:haha:

And saw where Black with Gold stripes was the original 69 Camaro ZL-1 pilot/proto paint scheme.

Now why did you have to tell me that? I am already confused enough on what to do with the car....return it to 1972 Rat's Nest trim, restore back to original, sell it, and now ZL-1 pilot clone!:confused2:


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