The Supercar Registry - View Single Post

70 copo · #91 08-07-2015, 01:38 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil:
I absolutely want it both ways. In fact, I want it (at least) five ways.
1. Fist hand accounts by Fisher and GM workers.
2. First hand accounts by original owners.
3. Facts as set out by unbiased researchers.
4. GM documentation on what was available or possible.
5. Contemporary photographs, such as car mags, owners pics from weddings, etc.

In addition, the CONCLUSIONS of experts who have researched thousands of cars are helpful. Doesn't mean they are always right.

I want all the evidence. No one source is infallible. I can remember in great detail the first time I saw a girl naked. But, ask me what day it was. I don't have a clue. Ask me what she was wearing 20 min. before. No idea. Now, suppose that girlfriend kept a diary, and had a dated entry of the event. Now we have another piece of the puzzle. Suppose also, that the date happened to be her brother's birthday, and there were family photos from the birthday. Now we have a third piece.

James admitted that what he had always thought was chipped in stone, was not. The revelation from the workers on the paint process for special paint cars changed his mind.

I have no idea what you mean by the following question: "Is there a better way to communicate new information and discoveries to the hobby in general?" Just present it. If someone doesn't want to believe it, it wouldn't matter if Moses brought it down from the mountain etched in stone. That is their problem, not yours and mine.

Just to be clear; the very first pic I saw a couple years ago of the paint under the door panel on Clem's car, I thought to myself (before I even read the thread) "Wow, that car was Evening Orchid from the factory." Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Do I care if someone else disagrees with me? Not one bit.

I appreciate what you have done for this hobby. On the other hand, I appreciate what others have done coming from a different perspective. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. MOST OF THE TIME, it is simply two ways of arriving at the same conclusions. For those times when they don't reach the same conclusions, I want as many facts as possible. </div></div>

Great.. Now I know where you stand, so please indulge me in a simple and respectful examination of where we agree:


You say:

"I absolutely want it both ways". Gotcha... and your original quote bears that out. You are not willing to throw the establishment under the bus nor are you willing to throw Clem under the bus. I get that.

"In fact, I want it (at least) five ways".

1. "Fist hand accounts by Fisher and GM workers". I agree we have that from one plant (possibly more in the future)

2. "First hand accounts by original owners". We have that from Clem and His wife.

3. "Facts as set out by unbiased researchers". Comment... One persons unbiased researcher is another Man's "Partisan researcher"

4. "GM documentation on what was available or possible". We have that to an extent.. and I have quite a bit of that from research on the plant.

5. "Contemporary photographs, such as car mags, owners pics from weddings, etc". Comment... potentially useful however old photos have limitations when you are looking at color (for instance) and the disagreement within the locked thread bears this out clearly.

You say:

"I appreciate what you have done for this hobby. On the other hand, I appreciate what others have done coming from a different perspective. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. MOST OF THE TIME, it is simply two ways of arriving at the same conclusions. For those times when they don't reach the same conclusions, I want as many facts as possible".

I agree, however if we are talking about factory issues and special paint (which is and was the focal point of Clem's old car) then that is a narrow knowledge path where the workers are the subject matter experts. 

Lynn, For better or worse I am the voice of the organized Norwood worker group. They have discovered the intense interest that exists within the hobby through the writing of the book. Also know this....If you think Clem is abrasive in the critique of what goes on in these forums you should hear what several of the Norwood guys really think of the knowledge base that posts here. They look with amazement on the "certainty" the group has in drawing conclusions about the most trivial detail of the assembly process process mostly from individual cars 45 years on now, and trust me Clem is charitable by comparison with what he thinks. 

The workers have recently tried to reach out through the book and through me. My outreach to the hardcore segment of the hobby is mostly a failure and since I never worked at Norwood a day in my life-- I admittedly have zero direct Knowledge of what happened on the lines. 

What I continue to do is assist the workers by providing a voice to their work experiences as a liaison to the collector car hobby. In reply to your question about the hobby and communication well that is pretty obvious. The fact is that most every thread I am involved in eventually goes partisan where the hobby expert class has existing positions that sometimes are at great odds with the reality of the consistent recall of the workers who were there. 

Make no mistake the message is not my mine, it is the workers and they feel quite rejected. Rejected to the point where meetings were extended to the persons that could benefit the most from the interaction. All declined.

So in the face of forum bans, locked threads, declined invitations to meet and threads that consistently go negative with an impossible burden of proof, how would you suggest that the information from the workers be released to the hobby?