Newly painted w/ scratches and swirls. What to do?

[Tim Greer]

I've got a '67 RS convertible that I've done the engine/trans/rear on, and took it to a body shop for the body and paint and interior. Now, it's almost done and I have a problem, and I'm trying to decide if I'm being too picky about the importance of this problem (or to be more clear; the likely outcome anyway, with the shops "plans" to remedy the problem).

The shop painted the car 6 or 8 months ago. I had them paint it black and put three coats of clear. It looked good as far as I recall, but then the interior was put in, the new top was put on and some work here and there. Over this time, such places they took it to, put carpet over the side of the car when they were working on the top. The mechanic brushed up against the side and caused a scratch and so on.

Overall, there are some pretty significant scratches now, which they said "should come out" when they "buff the car". Some of these appear to be deep in the clear, or through the clear into the base paint. It seems that almost all over the car, there are swirls from the buffer or when they polished, some dull and scuff areas as well. I mean, all over.

My father owned a body shop for 30 years, and I'm going to talk to him about this and see if I can get him out with me to look at it. However, in the meantime, I'd like some input. I'm trying to be reasonable about this, but I just wonder how reasonable it would be to tell these guys to reshoot it. Take off all of the clear, reshoot it and apply the three layers again (since I paid for this).

Obviously they shouldn't need to buff or polish the thing, since it should be a new paint job and three coats of clear, but since it was painted so long ago and they've been working on it over that time, it's gotten scratched. In this case, is just buffing it out a reasonable solution? I don't see how all of these dull/scuff areas, swirls and small scratches, let alone the prominent scratches are going to go completely away. Also, this will be the third or fourth time he'll either be buffing or polishing the car. If this is the fourth time he's buffing it, it's GOT to be burning through the clear, I'd imagine.

Besides, when I pointed out all of these issues last night to them, was when I was supposed to be picking up the car (since it was supposed to finally be done). So, that means after the third time he's buffed and polished it, is what I saw was *after* that, and it didn't look good. His defense was that "It's a black car, it's going to show scratches, that's just pretty much how it is". Well, *I* didn't put the scratches in, even if they are fine scratches and even if they can be buffed out.

Perhaps it's just sloppy work with buffing it, but I'm actually concerned that this guy is buffing it out each time and not even wet sanding the scratch prior to buffing. Again, a new paint job, should look _new_ and you shouldn't have to keep fixing the issues, but this is basically all over the car. I'm unsure what to do.

Anyone have any experience with this? I just don't see these guys being receptive to my demand that they remove the clear, re-shoot it and then reapply three new coats of clear. However, I'm not going to accept shoddy work either. Does this sound like a matter where I should just let them buff and polish (yet again) and see how it turns out, or should I not waste any time and just explain the situation and my dissatisfaction and tell them to not waste time (maybe explain why) and effectively force them to do this right, but reshooting it?

I mean, considering they wanted me to pick it up last night, this IS how they felt comfortable releasing the car to me in this condition. The scratch the mechanic put in, he said happened just that day and he didn't see it (it wasn't there earlier that day), okay, but how about all of the other light scratches and scuff marks? They just plan to "buff them out"? Some of the light scratches, maybe, but I just have doubts it'll look like a new paint job. It'll look like a "newer" paint job with some swirls, as far as I can tell.

I'm trying to be reasonable, and I don't expect perfection, but this was enough to trouble me, and their methods of remedying the existing problem doesn't seem like the best method, especially considering that I paid for the body work, complete paint job and three coats of clear, only to deal with this now. I realize that if I'm bothered and unsatisfied, that's probably a good indication of the situation, but I want the car back (it's been way too long -- they've had it since May 16th, 2007!), and I'm concerned about what will happen if I demand it be repainted.

I can just see having to call a tow truck and the police if they aren't receptive, and I only owe a final balance of about $2,000, which I don't know if it's enough to pay someone else to take it down to the base, reshoot it and put the three coats of clear. I certainly won't cause an issue for these people if they do it right, but I feel a little stuck and am looking for any suggestions or insight.

I also realize it's difficult to determine by my words without seeing pictures illustrating the problem, but just going by what I'm saying, if there are swirls and scuffs and scratches that aren't coming out and the paint job doesn't look new, you can then see where I'm coming from and I'm hopeful for some advise based on those variables. I'm aware I'm mainly venting here and I probably know the answer.

[StriperSS]

I'd like to respond to this, and will later, but I have to take my daughter out for lunch.
Don't lose all hope though!

[1randy]

i have painted a few cars , and that is not satifactory , you dont have to remove the clear they can paint right over it with the proper prep. time and it will be more than satifying to you with results because it will have a few more coats of clear , it should make it appear deeper.

[Tim Greer]

1randy, prep the clear on it now and paint over it, and then apply more clear on top? I'm not sure how that works. I used to work in my father's body shop, but I only did prep work, detailing, assembly and disassembly, so I don't know all of the ins and outs of matters like this, but I know that not a single car ever left our shop looking like this.


I already have three coats on top of the base, too much clear could cause cracking, so you're saying to prep it by getting down into the clear now, paint over it and then apply more clear. Wouldn't that create a problem? Would it be a proper base (the currently clear coat(s)) to paint over when re-shooting it? I can ask my father about that to be sure, but I just didn't think that would be a desirable method? I could be wrong. Either way, it does probably need to be reshot entirely.

[Bergerz28]

I have been restoring cars for 30 years and it changes all the time with the paint products, but rule of thumb is if your nail catches the scratch it cannot be polished out its too deep. Polishing the car multiple times yes does take off material but it depends what type of pad he is using, wool foam, etc. If you are going to repaint the car of course all the prep, washing, prep-sol etc, I would block the car with 600, 800 wet sand paper try not to cut through the clear, address the scratches and reprime those areas with a good 2k primer ( I use Glasurit products in my shop ) block out thse areas spray some color and then clear, you have such a good foundation with the material on the car and after blocking and new paint your car will be laser straight. As far as the swirl marks I am the owner and one thing I enjoy doing is wet sanding and polishing, if you do not know how to polish it will look like sh*t, I know people will comment on this but my painter lays it out like glass, after I bake it for an hour we let it sit for a day or so then I start blocking with 800, 1000, 1200, 1500 and believe me its straight and flat !!! I start with a wool cutting pad and 3M compound just a quick cut, then a 3M white foam with 3M compound, green foam pad with compound and then a black foam pad with 3M finesse and then finish with a good hand glaze, most of the finish glazes I use are Griots Garage I feel they are the best. The reason for swirl marks are the polisher is held at too much of an angle leting the edge build-up with heat, you do not want to be flat just a slight angle for air circulation and I throw a sprinkle of water while I am polishing, never clean-up all the compound or glaze with the machine always wipe off the residue with a soft cloth and never polish from one product onto the other always start with a clean surface and clean the sling off the next panel before polishing. Paint and finish prep is what we are tops above the rest, 2 cars at Peeble Beach 100 points each as well as untold Best Paint at Concours Shows and National Shows. Good luck I hope the easier way works out !

[1randy]

if they already sanded and buff it three times there isnt going to be to much material on it , so you can just reclear it . and i would have somebody else buff it this time. i usualy put 5-6 coats of clear on my paint jobs just to make sure there is enough there to correct any mistakes i could have made , but im not a profesional , , i have painted 40-50 cars .

[StriperSS]

BergerZ28 has pretty much covered what I wanted to say, and said it better.

[Tim Greer]

Yeah, that's the thing, I don't know if the guy just used compound and tried to buff out the scratches, or if he actually color sanded before buffing (at least depending on the depth of the scratch). I don't mind doing some of this myself, but I shouldn't have to fix the work left by them, when I paid them for a new paint job. It indeed could be (at least partially) a matter of the guy not using the right buffing compound, or he just sucks... and someone else could potentially remedy the problem for the most part with the swirls and smaller/lighter scratches.

But, I just worry the clear is getting pretty burned through by the fourth buffing session, especially with the swirls I saw -- which worry me that this guy is just camping out on one spot while the buffer is rotating, and it's sitting there burning through the clear, instead of removing light scratches. This whole mess makes me sick. There are some scratches that are pronounced enough, that I do believe I can catch it with my fingernail. Again, my understanding is that 3 coats of clear is pretty much the max without risking cracks later down the road, and that should be enough (maybe not for these guys though. :-) Had I known this would potentially come up (them storing the car in a dusty area, not covering it to protect THEIR hard work), I'd have gotten involved and made time to prep the damn car in the first place (I can do that), let alone to protect the paint job.

Now it might be in a situation where it's going to need to be re-shot, and if so, they should realize it was their responsibility and take the time to re-do it on their dime. Maybe they will? But I doubt they'll be so receptive. I'm unsure what they fail to understand that you pay for a new paint job, it should be new, and not need so many buffs or polishes to try and cover things (because I understand that could easily prove to be a temporary solution and it could start showing again -- depending, I understand that depends on some variables, too).

Part of this seems simple and obvious to me and I could do a better job myself, but other aspects and I'd be in over my head at this time -- and I paid them to do this job with quality, so I don't plan on learning to fix their poor workmanship after the fact. They will have to remedy it, and I do hope I'm exaggerating the significance of the scratches and depth in my mind and it'll not be so bad. I'll have to see what my dad says about that, and remind him it's been buffed three times already, with a fourth time impending, which has got to say something. I don't know what base (wax, silicone, etc.) that the compound they are using even is, so there's a lot of things to consider. I wish I knew more about this, but if I had, I'd probably not have hired someone. Thanks for the replies!

[Tim Greer]

Thanks, that's pretty much the type of stuff my father was rattling off on the phone just by what I was saying (before he has seen it) and it was too much for me to commit to memory, and involved aspects I either am not yet qualified to do, or things I refuse to do when I paid these guys to do it. In the end, I want it to be what I paid for, and I don't mind playing a part in that, even with some effort, but that opens other scenarios I've yet to feel out with how receptive these guys will be or not. Thanks.

[Tim Greer]

I figured I should post an update. I picked up the car about two or so hours ago. I ended up just taking the car and not paying the balance and they agreed (but I'm still in a bad spot, as good as an outcome as that may sound like). I explained the car needed to be reshot, he didn't disagree, but I'm pissed he tried to ignore it hoping I'd settle for the condition it was in. I found two or three significant runs in the paint, parts where a mirror was mounted at one point that bled through the paint, a bunch of scratches and chips all over the car... and, get this, the driver and passenger side windows that were perfect now have BIG, DEEP scratches in them and they're going to need to be replaced!

This guy had it at a stereo shop to do the wiring for the hideaway headlights (he claimed the motors were bad and they'd test them or get them to work -- I had a whole new wiring harness, motors, etc. installed before I took the car to them (I had opened and closed them maybe 4-8 times total before taking the car to them). Anyway, these people were supposed to fix the reverse lights and blinkers as well (the hazard worked fine)). I told him when his own "mechanic" was working on it, that if he couldn't figure out a simple wiring on this car, I would look at it, or have the guy I had do it originally look at it, and to call me and let me know. Two weeks of him not answering the phone or returning my calls, I find it's at that place.

That place was a real shop, had people answering the phone and I could get a hold of them to find out what was going on. When these guys lost my stereo, I got a CD player for the car and asked if it would fit. He said it would, but when he took it to these guys, he told them "Do what you have to to get this working with this CD player". When I talked to the shop, I asked what they were doing, where they were at and what they still needed to do (as usual, I'm told two days they'd have it, and it was 2 weeks), they told me they fixed the headlight motors and the turn signals and backup lights didn't work (yet the hazards did). They said they were going to cut into the dash to put the CD player in and make a wood bezel custom.

I said I never authorized that and don't want anyone cutting into it and wood would like ghetto -- he agreed and said he'd not do that to his classic truck either. By then, all of the electrical was supposed to be done and I told them I didn't want to wait another week or more for a stereo, especially since I don't want anything cut (I was told it would fit, but since it won't after all, I'll decide what to do about that later). I told them to stop work and tell the autobody shop to pick it up. They did and the guy picked it up the next morning. I never heard anything from the autobody shop this entire time, no messages returned just asking where they are at. I left a message after getting pissed off and said "I never authorized or said to cut into the dash, I specifically asked you if it would fit and you said it would--DO NOT tell people to just "do whatever" to MY car!". I knew that'd make him less likely to call because he never wanted to deal with their screw-ups and just preferred to avoid me and make the problem worse by dragging it out.

They said they had to replace the brake cylinders and bleed them a couple of weeks ago and said it was done. Yet, I pick up the car, we agree I don't pay the measly $1,500 balance on this $16K job I've had them do, because of the deep scratches in the windows they put in (this is quite bad, by the way), the fact they lost the original stereo and bezel/face plate, and the fact they never got the scratches out that I knew were too deep. He said it would take two months to reshoot the car and I said I'm not waiting, how about I pay you nothing and take the car away like it is now.

Well, that sounded good enough to be done with these people (I didn't have a choice, I wasn't leaving it sitting there and these guys have no definite plans for when they'll even have a booth!), and yet, as I was driving this home, I found the dash/instrument panel didn't light up, the headlights are not aligned (at least the doors open on the headlights), the brakes either were never fixed or they were never bled (I thought the car wasn't going to stop several times on the way home, in the dark!), and the idle is set really high because the mechanic sucks and doesn't know how to tune it (it ran great when I took it in almost TWO years ago!), and as I was trying to get the gauges to light up, there's a short when I turn it counter-clockwise and the interior under dash light comes on and nothing else.

The wipers didn't go on (luckily it wasn't raining), the reverse lights don't work. When I tried to use the turn signal, either right or left, it takes some good amount of force to get it to switch (even though they don't work, I was hoping 1/2 way home that maybe I just didn't see it and it's better than no signal at all and I was already in the thick of it with no good way to pull over). The car was also surging. I told them to drop the tank and clean it before filling it and they said they would, but I am having my doubts, I don't know if they even drained it, but I doubt they dropped it and did it right, so there's likely crap sucked into the carb jets.

There's more, but I am too annoyed to get into all of the details. The paint looks fine 5 or so feet away, but there's way too many problems with it. I paid for a new paint job, and I get this shoddy quality, right along with all of the mechanical and electrical problems, and all I was able to do was to tell them that I'm not paying the small $1,500 balance. I assumed they fixed the brakes, which could add a few hundred more I'd have to had to pay anyway, which they knew they couldn't tack onto the balance, since I was so far in the hole if I had to have someone else reshoot it. It didn't sound like they'd want to even reshoot it, and even if they did agree, who knows how long it'll be, even if they get the paint booth. No way are these guys going to last anyway, especially with this lack of quality, the huge delays and avoiding customers for weeks and months at a time. People only keep them in business with their cars being there, because people feel trapped since they'd gain more by waiting than by pulling their car out (even if they owed nothing) and having someone else start over.

So, I'm annoyed. I have to take my car back to the mechanic I trust (the guy I TRIED to get the autobody shop to contact, but I think he was bartering trades for work with whomever would accept the offer, so no way would they hire a real good person (or do any actual hiring), which just make things take longer in the end and even more people working on it that really didn't have reason to care about quality). Just scummy business practices. So, I'll have to pay this mechanic to fix all of the issues they've created, tune it, etc. and then get quotes from body shops I can trust to see how much they'd charge to resolve the current issue, prep, repaint and reclear the car (3 coats again, since that's what I paid for and waited for), and then figure out the difference and take these idiots to small claims court.

I'm certain they'll be out of business by then, but I'm going to get the quotes early next week and file a report with the California Bureau of Automotive Repair and get a case started and start the small claims suit. Better to file suit while there's a chance they'll still be in business. I had originally hoped to chalk it up to a bad experience and pay another $500-1,000 more than I planned for the difference it'd take over the final balance to have someone else do it, but with all of these other problems, I just can't accept that big of a loss. I'll be down anywhere from $3,000 to $6,000, depending on what all needs to be done with the mechanical, electrical, new glass, stereo replacement (that doesn't require cutting into the dash), the speakers for the stereo that are also lost, and then the re-paint process (fixing, prepping, painting and re-clear for max clear so I CAN buff out small scratches and have that deep look to the paint). This sucks. Anyway, that's the update (or the situation and the plan). At least I got it back and out of their shop so I can worry about one less thing and the rest of the situation is pretty standard on the resources I have available to satisfy me. Live and learn.