1970 gto judge ram air IV

[GTOguy]

After reading all of these posts, I have to interject. Steved, I can say absolutely Knafel did not receive a factory RA V car. He did get some engines, though. I am not trying to cut the guy down here as he did do a lot in promoting Pontiacs, HOWEVER,
Since his son started trying to make a profit off of the name a few inconsistencies have been popping up.
1) I am sure Bill or his son said they got some RA V cars. Remember by late 69 he was starting to limit his racing.
2) The only one that stated Running Bear was the GTO prototype is Knafel himself?? Do you really think Bill was the only one to think of this?? The car was not even a factory A/fx car!
3) Bill Knafel even promoted Tims car as the original Running Bear until Tim refused to sign a
Statement giving Bill $$ whenever he show's the car. Bill now says he does not think it is the original car??
4) I was also just told he has also recently sent a similar letter to Green stating he wants 40% of the selling price if sold! Let us see if he starts denying the 66 GTO is the original car!!

So INTEGRITY??

[mrmuscle]

do you know how foolish you sound when you say that you can absolutely say something about something you were never around. you guys kill me with this back and forth stuff. all i know is knafel has more record holding cars than anyone else (especially royal pontiac). go to knafels website that steved posted and look at the magnum 4oo detail sheet and it even says that they will put a ra v in one for you. there was also a picture of a ra 5 engine on a stand in their dealership in the goatfinder a while back. look at knafels 68 advertisement of the ra 2 engines. with less than 275 total ra 2 cars ever built, i wander how many dealers took out full page ads like that. if anyone could have got one, it would have been knafel. i dont think very many people have a clue as to what this guy was all about. i myself didnt until this post started and i started searching the web for things on him and went back and pulled several old magazines articles and it is truely amazing. what amazes me more is how quiet all this has been. until you start realizing what sixtiesmuscle commented on and then see who is doing all the writing about history in the last few years. i personally am starting to doubt alot about what jim wangers has been telling. possibly he is the one out still trying to make a living on his past and it is funny that he never mentions knafels name. but what i am finding out, i wouldnt either if i had been beaten all but maybe once or twice in his (royals) career. the truth is what we as enthusiast deserve and if this sight keeps going, we are obviously going to find out alot more. remember what opinions are like and everybody has one.

[68l30]

Great discussion [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]...Here is a neat Knafel piece of dealer memerobilia.I believe it is a little earlier (63-64?)than the RA V but neat none the less...

Steve

[Charley Lillard]

GTOguy..I would be interested in seeing the letter to Green or the details.

[gtoguru]

I have been reading all your posts with interest. Just have a few comments. I do hope the RAV Judge turns out to be a factory/engineering installed piece. Back in 69 Pontiac had all it could do to keep the RAIV engines running in the cars. Many,many were blown up. John Sawruk said that they had storage buildings full of blown up RAIV's. That is why there are so few original cars left and that is why there are soo many SR blocks floating around. With all that warranty work going on I doubt that engineering would have been seriously testing any RAV combinations. They were busy trying to keep the RAIV's together. But that could also be how Knafel got a factory built GTO with a RAV. Knafel could continue testing the RAV while engineering worked on RAIV warranty issues as well as the 455HO and SD stuff. Also contrary to popular belief all pontiac engine blocks did not get the VIN stamped on them. Most did but I have seen many that did not. Just my 2 cents worth.

[Steve_Hoog]

GTOguy

I have no idea who Tim, Green, or you are; so your wasting your time addressing me with those questions.

It does sound like your a little sour about something, but I can't help you.

Steve

[MotownMadman]

I have a never say never story. This has no reference to the GTO in question, but it is a GM oddity. I have a friend of 30 years who is retired from GM, he worked at the GM proving grounds in Milford Mi. He owns to this day a 66 or 67 Corvette roadster which he obtained from the proving grounds, the car has a big block in which the engine had been assembled on a subcontract basis from a company called Diamond Elkin engineering, this was a Gm test car never meant to leave the confines of GM, but somehow this car still sits in my friends garage. Exactly as assembled by Gm with that test engine it is a honest 10 second quarter mile car. Is the car part of documented history? I highly doubt that fact. How many know of this car? Very few. Does he have documentation to prove it's origin? I highly doubt that also. But, I was there the day he brought the car home from the proving grounds, it remains untouched to this day. Is the Pontiac in question the same situation? I wouldnt think it would have existed all these years without that knowledge coming to light as with this particular Corvette. Can either be documented as fact? Very doubtful. Never say never? Who knows what went on back then. Although some who know of each car may be convinced of their authenticity, without factual evidence to support the origins they become an urban legend. At the same time they are both significant parts of muscle car history even lacking documentation, in which both are best left to hold their place in history for what they are, both important in their own right even without factual proof. Some questions and riddles are left never to be solved.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

[mrmuscle]

i agre completely and totally believe that. there are too many experiemental cars that exist in private collectors hands that were supposedly never ment to leave gm's control. i am continually searching now for more knafel info (and am blown away by what i am finding) and cant believe that the pontiac collectors have not jumped on this years ago. this guys cars should be sought after like any grumpy jenkins, motion or yenko car is. why has it been kept so quiet for so long????? any answers???

[sixtiesmuscle]

GTOguy & gtoguru, who are you??? Please fill out your profiles, or, at least let us know your names.

[lowmile]

Mowtown are you saying there was a second gunman on the grassy nole. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]