Newly painted w/ scratches and swirls. What to do?

[Tim Greer]

I've got a '67 RS convertible that I've done the engine/trans/rear on, and took it to a body shop for the body and paint and interior. Now, it's almost done and I have a problem, and I'm trying to decide if I'm being too picky about the importance of this problem (or to be more clear; the likely outcome anyway, with the shops "plans" to remedy the problem).

The shop painted the car 6 or 8 months ago. I had them paint it black and put three coats of clear. It looked good as far as I recall, but then the interior was put in, the new top was put on and some work here and there. Over this time, such places they took it to, put carpet over the side of the car when they were working on the top. The mechanic brushed up against the side and caused a scratch and so on.

Overall, there are some pretty significant scratches now, which they said "should come out" when they "buff the car". Some of these appear to be deep in the clear, or through the clear into the base paint. It seems that almost all over the car, there are swirls from the buffer or when they polished, some dull and scuff areas as well. I mean, all over.

My father owned a body shop for 30 years, and I'm going to talk to him about this and see if I can get him out with me to look at it. However, in the meantime, I'd like some input. I'm trying to be reasonable about this, but I just wonder how reasonable it would be to tell these guys to reshoot it. Take off all of the clear, reshoot it and apply the three layers again (since I paid for this).

Obviously they shouldn't need to buff or polish the thing, since it should be a new paint job and three coats of clear, but since it was painted so long ago and they've been working on it over that time, it's gotten scratched. In this case, is just buffing it out a reasonable solution? I don't see how all of these dull/scuff areas, swirls and small scratches, let alone the prominent scratches are going to go completely away. Also, this will be the third or fourth time he'll either be buffing or polishing the car. If this is the fourth time he's buffing it, it's GOT to be burning through the clear, I'd imagine.

Besides, when I pointed out all of these issues last night to them, was when I was supposed to be picking up the car (since it was supposed to finally be done). So, that means after the third time he's buffed and polished it, is what I saw was *after* that, and it didn't look good. His defense was that "It's a black car, it's going to show scratches, that's just pretty much how it is". Well, *I* didn't put the scratches in, even if they are fine scratches and even if they can be buffed out.

Perhaps it's just sloppy work with buffing it, but I'm actually concerned that this guy is buffing it out each time and not even wet sanding the scratch prior to buffing. Again, a new paint job, should look _new_ and you shouldn't have to keep fixing the issues, but this is basically all over the car. I'm unsure what to do.

Anyone have any experience with this? I just don't see these guys being receptive to my demand that they remove the clear, re-shoot it and then reapply three new coats of clear. However, I'm not going to accept shoddy work either. Does this sound like a matter where I should just let them buff and polish (yet again) and see how it turns out, or should I not waste any time and just explain the situation and my dissatisfaction and tell them to not waste time (maybe explain why) and effectively force them to do this right, but reshooting it?

I mean, considering they wanted me to pick it up last night, this IS how they felt comfortable releasing the car to me in this condition. The scratch the mechanic put in, he said happened just that day and he didn't see it (it wasn't there earlier that day), okay, but how about all of the other light scratches and scuff marks? They just plan to "buff them out"? Some of the light scratches, maybe, but I just have doubts it'll look like a new paint job. It'll look like a "newer" paint job with some swirls, as far as I can tell.

I'm trying to be reasonable, and I don't expect perfection, but this was enough to trouble me, and their methods of remedying the existing problem doesn't seem like the best method, especially considering that I paid for the body work, complete paint job and three coats of clear, only to deal with this now. I realize that if I'm bothered and unsatisfied, that's probably a good indication of the situation, but I want the car back (it's been way too long -- they've had it since May 16th, 2007!), and I'm concerned about what will happen if I demand it be repainted.

I can just see having to call a tow truck and the police if they aren't receptive, and I only owe a final balance of about $2,000, which I don't know if it's enough to pay someone else to take it down to the base, reshoot it and put the three coats of clear. I certainly won't cause an issue for these people if they do it right, but I feel a little stuck and am looking for any suggestions or insight.

I also realize it's difficult to determine by my words without seeing pictures illustrating the problem, but just going by what I'm saying, if there are swirls and scuffs and scratches that aren't coming out and the paint job doesn't look new, you can then see where I'm coming from and I'm hopeful for some advise based on those variables. I'm aware I'm mainly venting here and I probably know the answer.

[StriperSS]

I'd like to respond to this, and will later, but I have to take my daughter out for lunch.
Don't lose all hope though!

[1randy]

i have painted a few cars , and that is not satifactory , you dont have to remove the clear they can paint right over it with the proper prep. time and it will be more than satifying to you with results because it will have a few more coats of clear , it should make it appear deeper.

[Tim Greer]

1randy, prep the clear on it now and paint over it, and then apply more clear on top? I'm not sure how that works. I used to work in my father's body shop, but I only did prep work, detailing, assembly and disassembly, so I don't know all of the ins and outs of matters like this, but I know that not a single car ever left our shop looking like this.


I already have three coats on top of the base, too much clear could cause cracking, so you're saying to prep it by getting down into the clear now, paint over it and then apply more clear. Wouldn't that create a problem? Would it be a proper base (the currently clear coat(s)) to paint over when re-shooting it? I can ask my father about that to be sure, but I just didn't think that would be a desirable method? I could be wrong. Either way, it does probably need to be reshot entirely.

[69L78]

I had the same problem when I had the vinyl top put on my 69 Chevelle, when I took it to the ulpholstery shop, the paint was perfect and when I went to pick it up, there were fine scratches all over the quarter's on both sides. The scratches did buff out completely, but I would not let them do it, a friend of mine details cars for a living, and is one of the best I know with a buffer. If the guy who buffed it before couldn't get all the scratches out, there is no way I would let him buff it again, what makes you believe he could do an excellent job the 3rd time.

[Tim Greer]

Exactly, if he didn't do a good job the first time, second or third, let alone have the respect, caring or capacity to even "recognize" the problem that existed when I looked at it, I don't have faith he can buff it out. There's still the question of *if* he was, how it would actually look, and I wonder how much of the clear would be burned through at that point? I suppose it would be a question of caring about it or not at that point, rather than having someone reshoot the entire thing. The problem is the scratches and scuffs and swirls that might be deeper than he can buff out, but like you said, even if they could be, _he_ is not _able_ to, in which case someone else would maybe.

I do think they could prep and reshoot it all and reclear it all, and it would be fine. However, I'm not sure they will. I don't know if they'll have to, but I just get the impression that they will. My father will say one way or the other, and if that's not good enough for them to agree, if they are still proud of the work, I'll get other body shops to say so, as well as some members of the classic muscle car club I belong to.

They still might refuse and say we're all being picky or they might accuse me of trying to get out of paying them, but if they did the job they were supposed to, I would pay them no problem. Therefore, I'll offer them to re-do it right, and then I'll pay them. That's all I want. The thing that bugs me so badly, is that they should know this and it's supposed to come out of their shop with a perfect paint job (or close to it). I don't like all of this re-fixing the scratches and I just foresee a problem, but maybe it'll work out... and maybe they can buff them out (someone else, not this same guy).

I just have doubts. I'm hoping for the best, but I also won't accept shoddy work... and I'm not going to allow them to keep stalling on this car either. This is very frustrating and it allows the body shop to put people into a situation where they feel like their car could be basically held hostage if they don't pay for poor quality work (and that's not going to happen here, but I can't wait months more either). Ugh!

[Bergerz28]

I have been restoring cars for 30 years and it changes all the time with the paint products, but rule of thumb is if your nail catches the scratch it cannot be polished out its too deep. Polishing the car multiple times yes does take off material but it depends what type of pad he is using, wool foam, etc. If you are going to repaint the car of course all the prep, washing, prep-sol etc, I would block the car with 600, 800 wet sand paper try not to cut through the clear, address the scratches and reprime those areas with a good 2k primer ( I use Glasurit products in my shop ) block out thse areas spray some color and then clear, you have such a good foundation with the material on the car and after blocking and new paint your car will be laser straight. As far as the swirl marks I am the owner and one thing I enjoy doing is wet sanding and polishing, if you do not know how to polish it will look like sh*t, I know people will comment on this but my painter lays it out like glass, after I bake it for an hour we let it sit for a day or so then I start blocking with 800, 1000, 1200, 1500 and believe me its straight and flat !!! I start with a wool cutting pad and 3M compound just a quick cut, then a 3M white foam with 3M compound, green foam pad with compound and then a black foam pad with 3M finesse and then finish with a good hand glaze, most of the finish glazes I use are Griots Garage I feel they are the best. The reason for swirl marks are the polisher is held at too much of an angle leting the edge build-up with heat, you do not want to be flat just a slight angle for air circulation and I throw a sprinkle of water while I am polishing, never clean-up all the compound or glaze with the machine always wipe off the residue with a soft cloth and never polish from one product onto the other always start with a clean surface and clean the sling off the next panel before polishing. Paint and finish prep is what we are tops above the rest, 2 cars at Peeble Beach 100 points each as well as untold Best Paint at Concours Shows and National Shows. Good luck I hope the easier way works out !

[1randy]

if they already sanded and buff it three times there isnt going to be to much material on it , so you can just reclear it . and i would have somebody else buff it this time. i usualy put 5-6 coats of clear on my paint jobs just to make sure there is enough there to correct any mistakes i could have made , but im not a profesional , , i have painted 40-50 cars .

[StriperSS]

BergerZ28 has pretty much covered what I wanted to say, and said it better.

[Tim Greer]

Yeah, that's the thing, I don't know if the guy just used compound and tried to buff out the scratches, or if he actually color sanded before buffing (at least depending on the depth of the scratch). I don't mind doing some of this myself, but I shouldn't have to fix the work left by them, when I paid them for a new paint job. It indeed could be (at least partially) a matter of the guy not using the right buffing compound, or he just sucks... and someone else could potentially remedy the problem for the most part with the swirls and smaller/lighter scratches.

But, I just worry the clear is getting pretty burned through by the fourth buffing session, especially with the swirls I saw -- which worry me that this guy is just camping out on one spot while the buffer is rotating, and it's sitting there burning through the clear, instead of removing light scratches. This whole mess makes me sick. There are some scratches that are pronounced enough, that I do believe I can catch it with my fingernail. Again, my understanding is that 3 coats of clear is pretty much the max without risking cracks later down the road, and that should be enough (maybe not for these guys though. :-) Had I known this would potentially come up (them storing the car in a dusty area, not covering it to protect THEIR hard work), I'd have gotten involved and made time to prep the damn car in the first place (I can do that), let alone to protect the paint job.

Now it might be in a situation where it's going to need to be re-shot, and if so, they should realize it was their responsibility and take the time to re-do it on their dime. Maybe they will? But I doubt they'll be so receptive. I'm unsure what they fail to understand that you pay for a new paint job, it should be new, and not need so many buffs or polishes to try and cover things (because I understand that could easily prove to be a temporary solution and it could start showing again -- depending, I understand that depends on some variables, too).

Part of this seems simple and obvious to me and I could do a better job myself, but other aspects and I'd be in over my head at this time -- and I paid them to do this job with quality, so I don't plan on learning to fix their poor workmanship after the fact. They will have to remedy it, and I do hope I'm exaggerating the significance of the scratches and depth in my mind and it'll not be so bad. I'll have to see what my dad says about that, and remind him it's been buffed three times already, with a fourth time impending, which has got to say something. I don't know what base (wax, silicone, etc.) that the compound they are using even is, so there's a lot of things to consider. I wish I knew more about this, but if I had, I'd probably not have hired someone. Thanks for the replies!