E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!

[Dave Rifkin]

[/quote]anyone can "make" a car from parts, there are a LOT of them, witness the green 69 RS Z for over $100k at B-J that was a TOTAL re-body from scrap, that is one documented "car in the envelope" or car FROM an envelope, as it is called.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">rusty, rotted cars deserve to die and their number/VIN &quot;retired&quot;, </span></span>then their &quot;good parts&quot;, ie the stuff that is not rotted out, axle, engine &amp; trans can help another car live.

a dynocorn car is basically a kit car, so is anything that has had the rotted or damaged body totally replaced ... just because a portion of the roof skin is &quot;original&quot; does not make it an &quot;original&quot; car imho

[/quote]

You can't be serious or, if you are, I hope you are referring to vehicles that are too far gone to be repaired. Even that is open to debate as there are many people who have the skills to save nearly any rusted vehicle. As far as I'm concerned I am happy to see these vehicles saved.

[Tracker1]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Rifkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]anyone can &quot;make&quot; a car from parts, there are a LOT of them, witness the green 69 RS Z for over $100k at B-J that was a TOTAL re-body from scrap, that is one documented &quot;car in the envelope&quot; or car FROM an envelope, as it is called.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">rusty, rotted cars deserve to die and their number/VIN &quot;retired&quot;, </span></span>then their &quot;good parts&quot;, ie the stuff that is not rotted out, axle, engine &amp; trans can help another car live.

a dynocorn car is basically a kit car, so is anything that has had the rotted or damaged body totally replaced ... just because a portion of the roof skin is &quot;original&quot; does not make it an &quot;original&quot; car imho

</div></div>

You can't be serious or, if you are, I hope you are referring to vehicles that are too far gone to be repaired. Even that is open to debate as there are many people who have the skills to save nearly any rusted vehicle. As far as I'm concerned I am happy to see these vehicles saved. [/quote]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img] What he said.

[al8apex]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Rifkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You can't be serious or, <span style="font-weight: bold">if you are, I hope you are referring to vehicles that are too far gone to be repaired.</span> Even that is open to debate as there are many people who have the skills to save nearly any rusted vehicle. As far as I'm concerned I am happy to see these vehicles saved. </div></div>

my point exactly ...

Duesenbergs, Bugattis, AC Cobras and Shelby Mustangs are the only other cars (that come to mind) that have their serial numbers known and any <span style="font-weight: bold">tiny</span> piece from the &quot;original&quot; live on in a recreation ... why? Because of their value.

No one cared about these cars (Camaros) 10-20 years ago, if they were &quot;totaled&quot; they were parted out ... that is where all the cool HP parts come from, wrecked &amp; totaled cars. Then the &quot;shell&quot; was either cut up for replacement parts (quarters, floors, cowls, roofs, etc, you know, RUST or accident damage replacement panels), sold off and either crushed or morphed back into something salable. I can't tell you how many L78 Camaros and Z28's I personally parted out in the 70's &amp; 80's, even a Z11 Pace Car Camaro. They were worth what we could get for them and if no one wanted them whole (missing the engines already in some cases), they were parted out.

Think of all the LS series engines out of 98 &amp; up Camaros, Firebirds and Corvettes that have departed from their &quot;original&quot; chassis / body / etc. They live on in all sorts of cars now.

This response was not intended to take anything away from the original theme of this thread, it was merely my opinion in response to a question posed about replacement items on a high performance (desirable) vehicle.

My apologies if anyone thinks the replies to questions raised in this thread are out of line or off topic.

What happened to this car, the car this thread is about, happened to MANY, MANY cars, not just Camaros. It was all about value and what some skilled (and in a LOT of instances, not so skilled) &quot;body&quot; men could make from what they had to work with.

[L78steve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: volspeed1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder now with the availability of full repo firewalls how many people are scrapping their confidential vins and not even realizing their significance?</div></div>


Exactly what I was thinking. This is a debate that will go on forever. Someone said earlier that the hidden vins make the car and the body doesn't. I tend to disagree because most Ford's built prior to 1953 don't have vins on the body anywhere, only on the frame and engine. That is why you see so many 32-34 Ford street rods that have fiberglass bodies with correct vins for their model of car. The builders either use an existing frame that has no body and mount a new fiberglass body on it, or they stamp a new frame with a vin to which they have a title to and install a fiberglass body. Technically either way the car is not really a 32-34 Ford....is it not? To me if the riveted vin has never been removed from the car nor the metal it is attached to been removed, then it is still the car that it once was. How many Chevelles and Monte Carlos that have vins stamped on their frames had a frame swap done due to rust or crash damage? There are lots of them, so does that mean that original drivetrain LS6 Chevelle is no longer the car it originally was? Oh just thinking about this can give someone a headache. </div></div>

It is what it is. An LS6 with a replacement frame. Still a nice car but not as desirable as an all original. Numbers are huge as far as value is concerned,any of those missing the value goes with them.

[SuperNovaSS]

Yes, that is a crazy analogy alright.


Jason

[al8apex]

here is the nose of &quot;that&quot; 69 Camaro that was built from an envelope:

[black69]

I think if Bergy makes a case to the state that this is truely most of the original car the VIN tag is riveted to, he may get to keep the original VIN. I think all this has to happen before they inspect the car, ofcourse. I think that is why he is investing in the complete paper trail and contacting real people to back it up that can testify in court if need be. We are talking about a car that can be worth $250K so I don't see any issue seeing a court case in this cars future.

Some experts in the Camaro field would have to say that the dash vin was never removed (so original paint better be present), and someone would have to say some of the original firewall is remaining. Lots of work ahead (and lots of money). IF the state would judge the car is original, then heck maybe he could then replace part of the firewall that is not original to the car and call it a day (removing traces of another car's firewall). I see that as the best outcome.

Some experts would have to get a lot of money to authenticate this eBay Yenko the more I think about it, as their reputation and liability is always at risk. I do wonder how Jerry M backs up his authentications as he was innocently involved in the green Z envelop car. If Bergy is on the path I think he is on, he has to be prepared to shell out a lot of money to make his odds good on this.

[PeteLeathersac]

<span style="font-style: italic">[quote=black69]&quot;...Some experts in the Camaro field would have to say that the dash vin was never removed (so original paint better be present), and someone would have to say some of the original firewall is remaining...&quot;[/quote</span>]

Bergy has already confirmed the Vin tag itself has indeed been removed so suggesting ideas like this also court cases and things anyone 'would have to say' sounds felonious?.

Up 'til now I thought this thread was all about Bergy's quest of gaining information and opinions to determine what any components in hand actually are also considering possibilities of them being best consolidated both legally and fairly but including suggestions such as above in this open dialogue seems to take things from exploration to contriving?.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]
~ Pete

[black69]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">[quote=black69]&quot;...Some experts in the Camaro field would have to say that the dash vin was never removed (so original paint better be present), and someone would have to say some of the original firewall is remaining...&quot;[/quote</span>]

Bergy has already confirmed the Vin tag itself has indeed been removed so suggesting ideas like this also court cases and things anyone 'would have to say' sounds felonious?.

Up 'til now I thought this thread was all about Bergy's quest of gaining information and opinions to determine what any components in hand actually are also considering possibilities of them being best consolidated both legally and fairly but including suggestions such as above in this open dialogue seems to take things from exploration to contriving?.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]
~ Pete </div></div>

Hey, all I was trying to do is put a positive spin on what I think he could do, if ONE thing remained on the car like the vin plate. If that has been removed and reattached..then I think you have a pretty weak case getting a state to allow that car to keep its VIN. 35 pages to this thread, mistakes get made, I thought it was still original and never removed. Bergy did write: <span style="font-style: italic">I will move for a judicial declaration as to the propriety of this vin being attached to this car as soon as I have sufficient evidence.</span>. I got my head too wrapped up around that statement, and to me, this thread is more than just collecting information on his car. It opens up a lot of dialog.

[Canuck]

What is the sequence for apply a VIN on a 69 Camaro? Are the hidden vins stamped before the visual vin is attached to the dash/firewall area,or are they stamped after? Would the answer to this question determine if a hidden vin is the first or second vin applied and therefore determining which part of the car rightfully owns the number.
On full frame cars such as Olds 442 the vin is stamped on the frame in a variety of locations,all usually not visible unless the body gets removed. In the case of my 71 W30 convert the stamp reads 1M197xxx and I only saw it on the side of the frame rail below the drivers door. I never saw any other hidden vins on that body of any of the other 5 Oldsmobiles I have restored.
Have Chevelle owners found vins stamped on the body?

Tracker1 and myself will be discussing this at great lengths over a beer in a few weeks. When newfies get together.. world problems get resolved.

Paul