Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?

[MotownMadman]

The big question is: Is it acceptable in the collector car world to take a collector car that has the back half of the body extremely damaged by rust or previously cut up, to rebodie the car using the original frame and other componants? I have heard conflicting ideas on this and would like to get the opinions of the serious collectors on this site. Also, is it correct in thinking that an original car is just that, "original" with nothing removed or replaced, and a "correct" car is a car that has one or many major componants replaced with correct application and date coded parts? Lets here some thoughts on this. Thanks, Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

No rebody is acceptable. I believe it is better to list the car as 'gone' rather than rebody it. If a major drivetrain item is replaced or restamped, it is no longer original drivetrain - aka; matching numbers. If an item is replaced with a properly dated, correct casting etc.... I guess you could call it 'Correct Drivetrain', but I'm not sure on that. This is subjective of course, some people are ok with switching bodies and hitting blocks, and I know it happens more times than most people are aware, but it's just not for me.

[MotownMadman]

Marlin, This is what I am looking for, honest opinions from knowledgable people in this field, by the way, I am working on both the Dik Watson Novas, the one I used to own and the Forrest Green one you told me about. I will let you know if I have any success in aquiring one or both. Thanks, Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[copo9566aa]

Strange
But rebody car is <font color="blue">acceptable </font color> for me.
I have no problem with rebody (resurect)
I have more probleme with cloning. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
Many many Musclecar is rebody. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

[Stefano]

Tampering with a VIN,(removal,reinstalation without the approval, supervision and documentation by ,the appropriate regulatory authority, usually State Police)is a Felony.

Even "just" the posession of VIN securing Rosette Rivets is a Felony. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]

[MotownMadman]

Stefano, Devils advocate here, I tend to agree with you but as to your last post, how many first generation Camaros have had the rusted dash replaced with the VIN reattached with rivits available through Hemmings. Is every Camaro with a new dash supposed to be assigned a assemblers title because the VIN has been tampered with? Food for thought. Thanks, Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Stefano]

That which is allowed by law and that which people may or may not do can be two completely different situations.

I have seen the rust repair of a dash as you mention handled by "supervision" and did not require a retitle or retag and all other Vins were also verified.

FYI, there was and is an ongoing "Sting" opperation where people are/were buying advertised illegal items. Some of these unsuspecting buyers have been arrested and convicted.

It is not Illegal however to purchase, change, make up Trim tags and info nor to posess and use the correct Rivets used on GM trim tags.

[Jeff H]

In my opinion, a re-body is no longer the same car. It is unacceptable. A car missing the original factory installed engine is not "original" drivetrain. An original engine, but replaced transmission I would consider "original" though. It is the engine that goes with the body that determines an original car. If the body is rusted out and you have to replace ever body panel, floors, trunk, etc., but the hidden VIN(s) is still in place and untouched then the car is original restored in my opinion. A car with a correct drivetrain is just that, a car with another drivetrain. A lot of classic car dealers will call a car with a correct drivetrain "matching numbers" when it isn't. That's done to enhance the value. A 69 Camaro X77 car with a DZ302 that doesn't match the VIN is not original, but it is as close as you can get, but it's not matching numbers. This is all obviously my opinion and I hate when someone misrepresents a car just to get me to come look at it.

[copo9566aa]

Full of felony in this world.
This is not a world for Kid. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
a 71* A-Body Plymouth run in my town with a A-Body Dodge VIN
with no problem with the police. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Street racing is illªgal but Musclecars was made for street racing. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img]

[MotownMadman]

Jeff, Interesting point. I am troubled by the fact that a few years ago the judges at Bloomingtons Corvette show decided that it was acceptable to restamp a vin into an engine block as long as casting and date codes were correct and the correct stamps used in which a company in Texas leases them out for that reason. This is a subject in which there are opinions on both sides and there probebly will never be a unanimous opinion. Interesting in another post here about legal vs illegal, street racing is illegal, yet I have a document here from Ford Motor Company from 1969 which was a marketing stragegy for muscle cars, it goes into detail on how to market and promote street racing as Ford found by survey it encompassed 80% of their high performance market. How can a transmission which carries a VIN be replaced and be acceptable, yet replacing an engine that carries the same VIN not be acceptable? In my mind the only true original cars are those which have never had anything replaced with the exception of normal maintenance items such as belts, hoses, etc. When a car is restored, repainted with new weatherstips, etc, etc, is the car still original or is it an restored original? At what point does a car go from being original to being correct? I would think that a numbers matching car is just that, a car that has the original drivetrain componants wearing the original, not restamped VIN's. On the Yenko cars, when they are repainted and the stripes are replaced with aftermarket, is the car still original? In this day and age with the rarity and value of these cars, and considering all the fakes being built, the top people in this hobby should get together and come up with a survey/questioneer that asks these questions and more that the results can be used to define some guidelines and boundries for everyone to follow that will define original, correct, acceptable, and non-acceptable. The art world has similar guidelines that were defined due to the interest in the hobby and the growing rarity and value. The collector car world needs something similar to go by which answers these questions and more, something that will bring and end to the speculation and arguments once and for all, a self policeing set of rules, guidelines, or laws so to speak which govern the hobby. Just one confused collecters opinion. Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]