One of ? L89 Nova for sale at Russo and Steele

[BUIZILLA]

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To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that its real and the only one.

[/ QUOTE ] how can you assure us all of this? are you giving a money back guarantee?

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The original engine block, heads, intake, water pump, and carb as well as the original tranny and rear came with the car. During restoration at Legendary, they disassembled the engine in front of me, BKH, and Klutt to examine the broach marks and dates. All of the engine components were authenticated at that time as original and numbers matching.

then where are the piston pictures? if a magnifying glass was used to authenticate, then these should be available? I don't see where Ken, or anyone else, was disrespectful whatsoever here.... I also don't think a backdoor phone call is going to solve anything either.. a hidden VIN check for a body, and everything else was done on the engine? but the head and piston combo wasn't done, so why the avoidance of a simple question? if your going to put this thing out for PUBLIC SALE then it's originality confirmation should be PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE. Anything less than that is conjecture. NOBODY has offered any proof that this SPECIFIC engine was in fact assembled at Tonawanda with those heads, or sold new with those heads. Nor is there ANY paperwork from new showing an L89 build/sale. L78/L89 parts found now, don't make it an L89 sale from new. I still maintain the heads were put on after the sale, until such time as proof is shown otherwise. Those heads could have been installed after the original sale, so that doesn't make it a REAL L89 car does it???? nopers, not at all. Another person posted earlier that he tracked down the *possible* original owner already, so what's the delay in contacting him? if it was my car, I would have been at his doorstep the next day, even if it cost me 10k to find him...

my final respectful question is this>>> did Brian or anybody at Legendary hear the engine run, or drive the car before dissasembly??

just my respectful .02

JH

[kwhizz]

Again.......With respect to everyone here,I don't see why this is getting so complicated......Dave said ...."To dispel all myths and questions about my car, I can assure you that its real and the only one."
Let's keep this very simple.......Dave said he could "Assure" us the car was real.....That's all we are doing is asking a couple of questions to validate his claim......
Question #1....Provide GM Piston Part# for the 396 Block/074 Head combo........
Question #2....If as you state..you bought a second set of Date coded 074 heads from 427king to replace the originals because "They were the value of the Car" and not wanting to take a chance of damaging them in driving the car around......Are the original heads going to be included with the sale of the car??
Two simple questions.........As Judge Judy would say....These are the simple ones....they may get more difficult later......

Again......Dave said he could "Assure" us that this is the only one in the "World".....Two simple "Respectful" questions........

Ken

[Kim_Howie]

When I found the 67 Yenko I had awhile back, I did three things #1 pic of the VIN# #2 pic of the trim tag. #3 pic of the hidden VIN#. That is how you show a car is real!! I have owned more COPO Gibb cars than anybody. I have found more of them than anybody. I bought my first one in 1989. I knew about the Gibb novas before most people had even hear of Fred Gibb. My point is this,in the 30 years I have never found a L-89 nova yet. NO disrespect just asking questions.

[Keith Tedford]

How do you really document any car with absolute certainty. With our COPO Chevelle, the paperwork is just that, paperwork. It just says that a given VIN came with such and such options. Same with the bill of sale. With the body completely stripped, you can see that the stamped VIN section hasn't been welded into another body. The broach marks on the deck surface and the number stamps can pretty well verify the block and nothing else. The stampings on the transmission can probably be duplicated on an unstamped case. The KQ on the rearend would be rather hard to duplicate. That doesn't leave a whole lot that anyone can be absolutely sure of. With our 396 car having had a dozen or so previous owners, I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to what is original beyond the above mentioned. When buying any car, about the best you can do is put ALL the available information together and draw your own conclusions as to value.
I've gone through the frustration of owning a car like this. Back in the '80s, at swap meets, I have had people turn in mid conversation and walk away when I mentioned having a factory 427 Chevelle. They thought they were getting a line of BS. No matter, I owned the car from new and knew what I had. Good luck with the car.

[iluv69s]

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I have owned more COPO Gibb cars than anybody.

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...except Fred himself !!!

Hi folks. Maybe I can add my own 2.5 cents (inflation) worth. The following might not be earth shattering, but it might shed a kernel of info on the subject. As many of you know, in order to compete in NHRA Stock (and Super Stock) classes, the specific car as well as specific engine combinations have to be presented to the NHRA for acceptance by the respective factories. From the vintage Chevy perspective, that job fell in the hands of Product Promotion (Vince Piggins office). Now it's no secret certain liberties were taken (then and now) by the Detroit manufacturers so that their own production cars would be advantageously classified and have the best possible hardware for the class. It was called "being competitive". Plenty of interesting combinations (and equally interesting factory horsepower ratings) came out of this. 335 (rated) horsepower 428 Cobra Jets, LS6-powered 1971 Chevelles, any number of goofy Max Wedge cars and so on. They all more or less met the letter of the rules, at least when they were presented to the NHRA.

But in spite of these liberties - and some were considerable, I can't find a factory produced aluminum head 1970 396 (402) combination within the NHRA classification guide, especially one with 074 heads. As a note, the paperwork for the 1970 Chevrolet model year was originally issued on 23 March 1970, and revised a couple of times in 1970, so there would have been plenty of opportunity to include "rare" combinations. Certainly, the 401 casting (recent) replacement aluminum heads are listed, but they don't enter our discussion.

So I guess the point is, even if Chevy made something as rare as none of none, it was sometimes included in the NHRA Classification Guide. But the topic one of one combination is not.

I agree with many of you. The real key is the use of open chamber heads on this particular engine. As far as using 074 open chamber heads on a closed chamber 396, I sincerely doubt Chevy would have done that, even on a bad day. I've even done the open chamber head swap on a closed chamber piston engine decades ago. As others have pointed out those parts didn't really like each other. Amongst other things, it required the thickest head gasket I could find. My math shows, even in a perfect world with incredibly tight blueprint tolerances a 10:1 compression ratio would pretty much the most one could expect (and in the real world, I suspect a C/R of 9.5:1 or less would have been more realistic). It would have been a dog to drive I'm sure, at least in comparison to cars equipped with more standard 396-375 engines.

On the other hand, it'd be a bad ass day two car with an L88 or LS7 shortblock underneath those 074 heads.

Wayne Scraba

[69hurstSC]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you really document any car with absolute certainty. With our COPO Chevelle, the paperwork is just that, paperwork. It just says that a given VIN came with such and such options. Same with the bill of sale. With the body completely stripped, you can see that the stamped VIN section hasn't been welded into another body. The broach marks on the deck surface and the number stamps can pretty well verify the block and nothing else. The stampings on the transmission can probably be duplicated on an unstamped case. The KQ on the rearend would be rather hard to duplicate. That doesn't leave a whole lot that anyone can be absolutely sure of. With our 396 car having had a dozen or so previous owners, I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to what is original beyond the above mentioned. When buying any car, about the best you can do is put ALL the available information together and draw your own conclusions as to value.
I've gone through the frustration of owning a car like this. Back in the '80s, at swap meets, I have had people turn in mid conversation and walk away when I mentioned having a factory 427 Chevelle. They thought they were getting a line of BS. No matter, I owned the car from new and knew what I had. Good luck with the car.

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Well stated. Even if the original owner was located and vouched for the car there would still be speculation. Its just the nature of humans. I know where Hayden Proffitt's first 64 Race Hemi is located. It quite possibly could be the 1st ever 426 Hemi car (minus the 2 test mules and predating the 2%ers) but his "arrangement" with Chrysler would leave most people scratching their heads and shaking them in disbelief.

[MultiMopars]

OK, someone tell me what I am missing here and why everyone is still questioning this car?

1. The experts have looked at this car and state that the hidden numbers, POP, V.I.N., and engine stampings all match and are original. It has the CKT code which indicates it is an L89 engine.

2. I understand there is some question as to the part number of the heads. So what, the car has the correct code to be an aluminum head car. Who really cares which heads it came with or not. If it were me I would take the path of least resistence and buy another ACCEPTABLE set of heads for the car, and give the new buyer both sets and let him make his own decision.

Below are all copies and pastes from this thread and links included in it. I have bolded the areas that to me are conclusive proof based on the experts opinions. With this in mind it seems to me the people here that continue to question this car are basiclly calling into question the testamony of the experts. Lets cut the crap, step up and blurt out what you REALLY think if you can live with the concequences of having egg on your face later.

It took some digging, but Frendel was finally able to find a source that confirmed the availability of the L89 in the Nova and, more specifically, the CKT-code block as designating an L89 meant for a Nova. Somewhat reassured that the car was legit, Frendel took a leap of faith and gave the man his money. "For what he wanted, if the car was real, I knew it would be worth a whole lot more; if it was only a standard L78 car, I was only paying a little bit over market. It was worth the gamble," says Frendel of his decision.



On the mechanical side, Brian Henderson of Super Car Workshop, who had recommended Legendary when his own slate was full, examined the block's decks to see if the factory broach marks were intact; this was a means of determining if the code and VIN stampings were legit or recreations. Reportedly, despite initial skepticism, Henderson came away convinced that the engine was unmolested; because the CKT code is unique to an L89 Nova, this looks to be the only one known to exist.

This is what I found when looking at the car for Dave. I met Dave at Legendary to inspect the car. The car was at that time already apart, and the body was in the paint booth. The entire drive train was out of the car. Some of the parts were already apart for restoration. The engine itself was still intact. Dave brought all his documentation along, and he did a great deal of his own research. He had GM documents with the engine code I believe he got from Fran Preve. He had factory doc's like the POP. Peter Klutt among others examined the POP comparing it to other 70' POPs that Klutt had. There was NOTHING to indicate that the POP was not legit. It matched all the other ones on hand that day. From the glue to the fonts, it was for all we could tell authentic to the car. All the other codes matched the car 100%. The engine was on a stand and had yet to be taken apart. The Legendary Camera Crew was on hand to see EXACTLY what we found that day. Legendary's lead guys were present along with Klutt as the engine was taken apart. The pad itself had some light surface rust. There was no evidence of any step down on the pad from a previous decking. The heads were removed to see if indeed the broach marks extended from one side to the other, and they did. From all accounts it looked to be untouched and real. The heads were present and the dates noted. There was nothing to indicate the car was pieced together. The documents looked right, as did the block. Since there is not another pad like this to even match up too, it is impossible to tell what the others look like. Could it have been faked? I guess anything is possible, but it looked right. If it is wrong, it is exceptional. The original parts all had pitting and wear. Nothing was CRISP. I think the car is legit. If you are a serious player on the car, inspect it yourself. Dave came off to me as an honest guy. The car was already deep into the resto at Legendary when I was asked to look at it. There was no turning back at that point...BKH

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OK, someone tell me what I am missing here and why everyone is still questioning this car?


I believe what you're missing is, there was no GM production or factory service piston or head gasket available to allow the open chamber 074 heads to work satisfactorily on a 375 HP 396 or 402 engine.

Wayne Scraba

[Kim_Howie]

I guess we can all agree to disagree. I have said my part.