Pontiac may be dead by monday..

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]

And please tell me why the Japanese, who do not have unions, sell cars at or above the prices of union made cars with the same or below level quality.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want the guy criticizing unions to be objective, you also need to demonstrate objectivity with your comments or, at the very least, show where Japanese cars are equal in quality at best.

I also think you're mistaken, if I infer this correctly, that non-union-built cars are not as good quality-wise.

[The Dude]

The poster said the domestics dont make cars with good quality at a reasonable price. Ford is in a statistical dead heat with Toyota and Honda in terms of initial quality. And their cars are on par or cheaper in price. With current incentives they are practically giving cars away. Thats my point.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
GM has no one to blame but themselves.

02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR

Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too...

A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today.

Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car.

[The Dude]

The only people that care about Pontiacs heritage are the ones driving OLD Pontiacs. New car buyers dont give a rip about Pontiacs or Toyotas or Nissans heritage.

[JRSully]

If Pontiac goes toes up, I will very serioulsy consider buying one of those new G8 GT's asap, that is A LOT of High Performance car for the $$ and if GM stays around itself, they will have to service the stuff, could be a savvy buying opportunity

[danachevroletfor1967]

In my opinion GM started going down the tubes way back in the late 1970's when they started making a generic small block for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Olds to all use. One could no longer get an Olds Rocket V-8, Pontiac Ram Air, Chevy only small block, etc.
Then they started switching all their cars to front wheel drive, no matter the size. Now front wheel drive may be alright for small economy cars, but I would never want it in a mid-size or larger car.
Then it seemed like GM forgot about quality in their cars all together. All they cared about was trucks and SUV's. All they cared about was what made for them the most profit, at the expense of quality cars. I feel this is what killed the Camaro as much as anything. As another poster mentioned they killed the Camaro to produce the horrendous SSR. GM hasn't had real car guys running it since the 1960's and early 1970's. Now GM has to pay the price for concentrating too much on trucks and SUV's and almost forgetting completely about cars. Why couldn't the Camaro have been redesigned with a lighter weight, smaller size, stripped version (Z28), etc. Ford did it (redesign) with the Mustang and never stopped producing it.
In my opinion GM started the long downhill road in the late 1970's and hasn't been the same since. No wonder they have the problems like they do now.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
GM has no one to blame but themselves.

02'Camaro production was stopped for this POS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_SSR

Lots of guys who would have purchased a GM product left the brand after GM left part of its established core loyalty group. (Camaro owners) Many jumped to Ford and picked up stangs and then F-series too...

A senior GM official has been quoted as saying the Camaro "had to go away" It did not have to go away anymore than the SSR had to be produced. This is an example of just one of a series of bad business decisions made that resulted in the GM that we now see today.

Too bad for Pontiac. Another mistake about to be made. Tossing aside Pontiac heritage is going to be a huge mistake for whatever remains of GM.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason it had to go away was impending crash standards that it would not pass. Plus no one was buying the damn car anyway. Check the production numbers of the F body in its final years. The last three years of production GM made 45, 29, and 42 thousand Camaros. No way they could make money on that volume. Or justify redesigning the car.

[/ QUOTE ]


Only one problem with your post above. You are a little misinformed. Middlebrook (the manager who moved over from Pontiac) was the decisionmaker - and the decision to Kill both the Camaro and Firebird was made in 1997.

The 1998 redisign was engineering complete and cost finalized for production in late 1996- the issue for 2003 was rollover not crash.

The reason the car did not sell well after the 1998 redisign was linked to the redesign being only frontal and not the rear as planned. Round Corvette tail lights were planned but rejected due to cost, so sales flopped due to GM failing to freshen up the body as Ford did with the Mustang.

Also Camaro Pulled out of SCCA T/A at the time of the decision and GM then saved even more money by backing Ron Capps in NHRA Funny car.

Advertising fell to just a few ads in periodicals ONLY after the 1997 heritage TV ad campign.

You see there was plenty of time to redesign the Camaro, but the money was in trucks so instead of redesigning the F-Body they shot the wad on the SSR a low mark for quality with a roof that would not even go up or down correctly.

Bad and intentional decisions made at the corporate level.

If you think I am wrong - please be specific on what you think I am wrong on.

[Tenney]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion GM started going down the tubes way back in the late 1970's when they started making a generic small block for Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, and Olds to all use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kinda eliminated the need for four different brands, huh?!

[442w30]

What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada?

Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint.

To another post . . . I don't think the general public really cares about what engine is in whichever GM car. They want to be able to get from Point A to Point B. GM's problems really started in the early-1970s with poor quality and poor gas mileage in a time when there was an oil embargo. And - admit it - the musclecars we love so much aren't really so great other than in our minds.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
What car took over the plant from the Camaro in Canada?

Certainly there was more profit in that than building an aging F-body whose combined sales didn't match the Mustang's. Stopping the Camaro wasn't such a dumb decision from a business standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]



The original Plant was demolished. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Therese_Assembly

I am sure that with truck sales being what they were the shareholders just loved GM's decision at the time. Within three years of the decision however-they figured out quick the real cost of lost brand loyalty and the Camaro concept was out for the media to gaze upon.

Why?? after 02' Mustang sales increased with the Camaro/Firebird defections to Ford. Chrysler was watching too so the Challenger soon returned to fill the leftover market segment.

Real expensive lesson if you ask me and since the Camaro is back - the original decision in 20/20 hindsight must have been bad after all- otherwise why is the car back?

Same mistake is coming pertaining to Pontiac and that buying segment should the brand be killed. Likely that they will not buy GM in the future as they too will feel betrayed.