Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?

[Salvatore]

Gentlemen, These are all tough questions. When I was restoring my 1969 Z/28,I tried to be as careful as I could on my restoration parts. The car has the original trans. and rear. The motor is not original to the car. It is a date coded CORRECT (misleading word) 302. All body panels that were replaced were replaced with used sheetmetal, except the quarters.(NOS) The interior is original except the dash pad and carpets. I would NOT in any way, call this car original. That word original to me means: Original to this car only! The only thing that I do say is that the block and sheetmetal used is all vintage date coded, and or, came on a 1969 camaro originally. Although I feel, that my car is very nicely done, it can not command the price of a true survivor car that has been restored, or partially restored with all its original parts intact. I wonder how many big dollar cars are actually restored with repro sheetmetal and other foreign items? If the vin tag and the frame rails are the only things used in the resto, it almost becomes a kit car. It really is only original once from the factory. Anybody can say numbers matching, but is it original to that car? This is why true original cars are SO hard to come by, and really do command a better price. Sam

[copo9566aa]

The collector car world. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

The Zl1 No (1) is not restored to day one condition
It is restored to Drag Racing History condition (Gibb/Harrell)
And probably the owner of the ZL1 (1) not trade this ZL1 for
a full original restored ZL1.

Restored original History VS original restored.

Just a remark about the correct originality and value $$$$.

[MotownMadman]

COPO9566.
I completly agree with you on that one. I would much rather have the Harrell ZL-1 as any, I am sure it is worth more than most if not all, I am sure that Bill would agree. That particular car however is not the norm for what applies to most. Somehow everyone needs to find a way to come together on these questions and differences, that would make it a more difficult world for the people building bogus cars, right now there is such a gray area on what is original, what is correct, what is acceptable and whats not... it leaves too many open doors for the people who only care about MONEY to slip through. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...together we stand, divided we fall... This site would be the perfect place for the serious car collectors to come together and adopt a policy that stands true and accepted by those who stand the most to lose. Will GM ever release the records? I hope so, but I am not holding my breath. In the meantime it is up to the serious collectors to agree on these issues. Thanks, Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[Zedder]

I'm with Marlin and Stefano on this one...and you can bet that if I ever bought a rebodied car and found out about it, whomever sold it to me would be getting a visit from the authorities [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

As for the COPO advertised elswhere on the site, the owner will no doubt be held responsible for that rebody at some point in the future should the car be sold. It makes no difference whether the rebody was disclosed or not to a buyer, the act is still illegal and so is owning a rebodied car that has not had a MOT issued VIN. Should that car head State-side and get inspected at the border, it would likely be confiscated. Luckily, the car is well known up here and would quickly be recognized at a cruise night or car show. I will say for whatever it is worth, it is refreshing that the owner is admitting it is rebodied, however that is a very dangerous and potentially expensive statement to make. If I were him, I'd keep the car and enjoy it for what it is.

[Jeff H]

Truly original would only be an unrestored survivor car. Then you can use the term original to mean what the car was ordered as, ie a SS350. If the car doesn't have any codes on the trim tag or documentation to prove it's really an SS350, then you need to have the original engine to prove it, the trans won't prove it. That's why I would consider a car with the VIN matching engine original even if the trans was gone. Obviously the term means different things to everyone. You could say a 69 Yenko isn't original because the Yenko stripes were not on the car when the car was delivered. But a re-body is definitely no longer the same vehicle let alone original. We'll never get everyone to agree on what the different terms mean and that's what can lead to problems when you're dealing with a high dollar car.

[AutoInsane]

So what would be the correct action if you had a Yenko Chevelle (for arguments sake) with a body that was beyond repair? The car would be worth saving due to its heritage but if you put on a different body that was in good shape it would be illegal and dishonest? Would the correct way to do it to replace every panel? If you save the firewall but replace everything else does it still have its 'original body'?

Is it actually illegal to put a different body onto a car? If so..why? And then I would ask again... it would be legal to change every panel but illegal to rebody? Where is the legal distinction between 'rebody' and 'replacing body panels'?

I find it interesting to read about the various Bugatti's that go up for auction. Some of them have had almost every major component replaced, albiet with parts from other original Bugattis, and are still called original. The ones that command the highest prices (often 50 to 100% more) are the ones that truely are original.

I wonder if that divergence will become more pronounced in the super car market. As of now, as far as I can see, it doesnt seem truely original cars command all that much higher prices.

[MotownMadman]

Insane,
Your point is a valid one. This is where I had hoped this would go. I am not in favor of placing a new body to a car, however, I am trying to decide the logic in what is going on in the collector car world as of now. In an earlier post I asked a similar question, where does one draw the line? Certainly every panel on these cars can be purchased new or used, if everything other then the firewall, which carries the stamped numbers is replaced, is that then acceptable for the car to be a correctly restored original? The legal issue revolves around the alteration of any of the VIN numbers stamped into the body. In order to change the body the numbers would have to be inserted or restamped into the replacment body. As someone stated in an earlier post that would be legal if done under the supervision of law enforcement, so givin that, would a rebody be accepted in the collector car world if the car forever after carried a statement from law enforcement as to the numbers being transfered under the watchful eye of law enforcement? One of the reasons I started this post is I have a 69 pace car I bought out of Canada a few years ago that is a complete numbers matching unmolested original car, with complete history and Canadian documentation, the dilema is I have never seen a more rusted Camaro. I purchased every piece of sheet metal for the car with the exception of the cowl and firewall. Complete new floor, both quarters, two complete doors, complete trunk floor, shock towers, rear tail light panel, inner and outer wheel houses, and complete new GM dash. I have looked at this project for two years and never started it due to the fact I am at a loss as what to do. This is a original numbers matching car with documentation and history. Would the person I sold this car to be happier knowing he had a pieced together car(no matter how well its done they are never the same), or would he be happier knowing the back body shell was replaced with, say an Arizona body? Would the accepted way to be to take a perfect body and reattach the complete cowl and firewall off the original car? Is that acceptable? Back when these cars were new it wasnt unheard of to replace a complete back half of a car when totaled, they were usually cut across the floor at the rear of the rocker panel and cut right at the top of the A-Piller and sectioned together. If someone bought a collector car today and found out that had been 30 years ago, would the car then be no good? It was even a easier repair on a convertible as it was one cut across the floor right behind the drivers seats. Many were done that way, I happen to know of one very nice COPO today that had that same repair many years ago. Anybody here want to be the guy that tells him his car is no good? I for one dont want to repair the pace car in such a way that even if I told the buyer, suppose he sells the car a few years later and doesnt tell that owner, he finds out down the road and it all comes back to haunt me with civil charges and possibly criminal if I had not done the changeover under the eye of law enforement. The other possibility? Throw a perfectly original numbers matching pace car in the scrap yard and loose another piece of history? I dont think that idea would set well with anyone who is into the preservation of the history of these cars. I would be more than happy to email photos of this car to anyone for ideas and suggestions. If any of the members here were to find one of the missing ZL-1 cars that had been t-boned so bad there would be no fixing the body, but it had an all original numbers matching drivetrain with documentation, would you part the car out, or quietly go into your shop and do whatever is neccessary to fix the car. You get one with a badly bent subframe and nobody has a problem with bolting on a new subframe. I have a bigger problem with somone takes a plain jane Z-28 and adding a bunch of options and claiming as original, How would most you members rate your cars that have been restored, 30, 40, 50 percent original componants? I previously owned one of the Yenko deuce cars, I know the whereabouts of the rear end and original carburator , so when it is done it will no doubt have a restamped rear housing and carburator, when that rear end is stamped as many are, is there a noticable difference in that vs restamping the body? I would feel safe in guessing that 30 percent of the current cars in this field have had some point of the drivetrain restamped, it that legal or ethical? We all know that as these cars become older and harder to find that have more extensive deteriation, more and more of this practice will continue. This is why I believe some agreed upon guidelines should be adopted before it gets anymore out of hand. More food for thought. Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[Jeff H]

Motown, I think you're stuck playing the waiting game right now. This issue has come up over at www.Camaros.net in a discussion about a numbers matching 68 SS396 that has a rotted out body and the guy bought a clean 6 cyl car to swap all the components. You could buy a clean AZ car, cut your firewall and re-attach it and then proceed to restore it as the Pace Car. You can tell the guy you sell it to and he accepts it. He sells it to someone else and mentions it. Then that guy lists it for sale as all original and the next buyer is the one who buys a re-bodied car without knowing it. As great as some of these rare performance cars are, when they expire, they should cease to exist. Paperwork and documentation on a destroyed musclecar can help gather information for databases and research. The only good reason I can think of to try and resurrect a car that is gone would be for the historical value if no others like it exist. It would have to be 1 of x made where x is less than 10 ever made. I'll use the 1969 TA conv as an example. To me, the body shell is the car that goes with the VIN/Title. You change shells, and you no longer have the same car. You can change pieces on the shell to restore it back to it's former condition, but if you cut the shell in half, it's no longer the same car. And I'll add that there was a Challenger TA at the shop my car is at and it was a back-halved car. The owner had no idea until the body was stripped down. He was speechless. This is my point of view.

[will]

I knew some one that had bought a wrecked 68 1/2 428cobrajet mustang,car was totaled.he cut the vins and surroung metal out and rewelded it to another car(Ithink vin was under the D.S.fender or something)I wonder what it makes that car out tobe ???

[Unreal]

The hobby, and probably the law accepts the replacement of all sheetmetal, as long as the VIN area is unmodified. You can cut out and replace everything but that little portion around the VIN, and it's OK. But cut out the little portion of the VIN, and put it on another car, and you are a crook.

Said another way, If you clap by moving the right hand into the left it is OK. But don't clap by moving the left hand into the right!!