Is this a War or not? Something to think about?

[427TJ]

One of the main reasons bin Laden hates us because we kept our troops in Saudi Arabia after the Gulf War. Part of the deal to push Saddam out of Kuwait in '91 was that once the mission was accomplished, U.S. and NATO troops would redeploy out of the Holy Land (Saudi Arabia). They see us as infidels desecrating the Holy Land. The more radical among them, especially the very strict Wahabbi sect of Islam, which is growing in number and strength and potentially threatens the Saudi royal family's rule, is very supportive of Al Queda and bin Laden. They see bin Laden as their hero in part because he bloodied America's nose so dramatically on 9/11 but also because he shares their strict interpretation of the Koran.

It's too simple to say they hate us because of our freedom. They hate us because we are allied so closely with Israel and because we have kept the Arabs down for so long as we pump out ("steal") their oil, but it's mainly religious hatred.

The 1973-74 OPEC oil embargo occurred after the U.S. threw its support behind Israel during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. Arabs were suspicious of the West long before that but Israel's sweeping victory in the 1973 war, with help from American weaponry, was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. The Saudi royals, who are in a very difficult position, made a deal with the Islamic radicals (so did Saddam) that basically said that if the radicals left the royals alone, then the radicals would be left alone, within Saudi Arabia anyway. Bin Laden has had long-standing differences with the royal family even though they have tolerated each other in the past. After the '91 war and the permanent basing of American and NATO troops in Saudi Arabia, bin Laden has broken the 'agreement' with the royals and now names them as an enemy of Islam too. This is not good.

Bin Laden knew long before 9/11 that America has been angry about rising oil prices for decades. He knows damn well that we've had plans since at least the 1970s to invade and take "our oil" from the Saudis. Because bin Laden and Al Queda are fighting a long-term religious war, as they see it, they knew that it was inevitable that someday America would come to the Holy Land to take over the oil fields. (Again, that's how they see it.) 9/11 was Al Queda's and bin Laden's first major salvo in this new religious war. Yes, it's appropriate to look at it as a kind of 'Pearl Harbor' attack. Bin Laden knew that if he attacked America successfully, which he did on 9/11, that America would have to respond with a major force. Bin Laden said long before 9/11 that America wants to invade and occupy a Muslim country and take over the oil fields and that's what we've done in Iraq.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has called the war in Iraq a "long, hard slog." He said that over a year ago. The Iraq war is similar to Vietnam in that we are fighting people who are very serious about defending their land and pushing out the invaders. The difference is that there was no oil under Vietnam. There's LOTS of oil underneath Iraq, the second-largest oil fields after Saudi Arabia. U.S. involvement in Vietnam lasted from about 1961 until 1975. U.S. involvement in Iraq, now that we're in it for the long haul, will go on until the last drop of oil is pumped out. That could take 50 more years.

I have a six year-old daughter and a four year-old son. Many of you have sons and daughters in uniform. I flew 38 combat missions as a USAF pilot in the '91 war and I've spent LOTS of time in Saudi Arabia. (My perception was that they only like us when we're spending money on rugs and souveniers. But there's places in America where people are that way...) We are going to be involved over there from now on, until the oil is all gone, period. It doesn't matter if it's Bush, Kerry, or Peter Pan in the White House, we're there for more than the foreseeable future because no president, not even Al Gore, could pull-out now. There will be a military draft, count on it. Re-starting the draft is probably going to be political suicide for a president Bush, Kerry, or Pan. But, once the deferment, etc., loopholes are worked into a military draft bill then it will be passed. Since the oil is forecast to last at least another 50 years then it's almost a given that my son will have to go. That's okay, but it's something to think about. I served and he and my daughter will probably want to serve too. Oil is America's number one national interest and after 9/11 we've gotten very serious about defending our national interest.

Last thought on all of this. Iran is working feverishly toward developing a nuclear capability and so is North Korea. It is a fact that America only invades countries that do not have nuclear weapons and that's one reason why so many countries want nukes. (The other reason is that they want to put their neighbors on notice not to try anything.) If Saddam had nukes, and it's a good thing that his ambition was halted, we'd be in a hell of a tight spot. Factor in Israel's assertion that they WILL NOT TOLERATE an Iranian nuclear capability (think of the religious aspect here) and it's not hard to imagine a MAJOR war breaking out in the middle east. I think America will tolerate a North Korean nuclear capability because invasion is just not plausible--there's a million of them in uniform and they could overrun South Korea in a matter of days, if not hours. I think we will probably resort to relying on Chinese help (probably in secret) to keep North Korea in check. Now that China is our business partner they will want to keep that business relationship with us healthy, at least for the next decade, until they have copied/stolen our manufacturing processes and can do it alone. (See: out-sourcing.) If the Israelis mount a pre-emptive attack on Iranian nuclear capability then it's fair to say that a major war is going to follow. Remember that it was Israel that stopped Saddam's first attempt at developing nuclear capability in 1982 when Israel launched a successful suprise attack with F-15s and F-16s. (Both types of warplanes are made in America. See what I mean?)

We are definately in for a long, hard slog. We are serious but so are the Islamic religious fundamentalist insurgents. They will not fight conventionally, they will fight using only terrorist tactics. Roadside bombs, kidnappings, beheadings, etc. are the way it's going to be. I hope I am wrong, but we're probably going to have to kill almost all of them, terrorists or not, if we have any chance of prevailing. That means that a lot of our kids are going to be killed as well. As long as there's oil we're in the fight and so are they.

So yes, this is definately a war. Yes, it is definately something to think about. Say a prayer for our kids in uniform, those in uniform today and those who are going to be in uniform in the coming years.

[Belair62]

Some very sobering thoughts....

[whitetop]

[ QUOTE ]
Bullies (terrorists) only understand one thing "A good ole' fashioned Asswhippin"


[/ QUOTE ]

It took blasting about 200,000 Japs with nukes, to pacify a nation of about 50 million.

Muslims, with 1.4 billion at present, would (by application of the same ratio) require 5.6 million dead.

Time is wasting, as we speak. As you can see I'm not PC. I'm sorry I don't trust them. Maybe I would if I saw an ounce of outrage by American Muslims of Muslim terrorists acts butI don't.

[427TJ]

I hear you, but a major difference between the Japanese in WWII and modern Islamic fundamentalists is that the war with Japan was not religious, it was basically economic. Japan sought to extend it's control over natural resources and attacked us so as to keep us from stopping them. As we know, Pearl Harbor ultimately backfired on Japan and we did stop them in the end.

Yes, it is very telling that both the U.S. and European Muslim community isn't more vocal in their resistance to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism. Probably because they know they'll get blown up by a suicide/homicide bomber if they speak too loudly. Yes, a few of them speak out but in guarded terms. Just as we Americans were all brothers as the WTC fell on 9/11, they are all brothers too.

I am very suspect as to how all this plays out, especially given that we are so closely allied both politically and economically with the Saudi royals as well as the Israelis. It seems like a huge house of cards to me.

[Norm reynolds]

One thing for shore Americans WILL not tolerate a daft after the Vietnam mess I will NEVER FORGET
I am not willing and it would be over my dead body that my daughter would serve after today’s beheading
This is the final straw either we pull out and forget it or pull out and nuke them all sorry but do not feel sorry for the people of Iraq they know who the terrorist are and they do nothing so my take is they are as much at fault There will never be peace in Iraq so just nuke them and be over with it I am just sick and tied of this whole mess

[Schonyenko2]

427TJ, very good historical perspective.

[Mr70]

Today I have a 13 year old niece & nephew.I would imagine in 5 years,they will be called into duty.I think this War will be going on for aloooong time,but every night I Pray I am wrong.

[Pantera]

I wish it was just that easy but we could not live with ourselves if we did that.

Since we are just pipe dreaming here = I wish we could adapt their logic and go after each one of them indivualy. I mean destroy each one of them and their families. Hunt them down like a dog.

They have no fear of death. in fact it is a honor to die for the cause. BUT if we would slaugher each and every one of their children, wives, mothers, father, and sisters and everyone else related to them. We would get their attention. That is the one thing that they do revere and we would strike fear into the hearts of those on the fence that might be drawn into the battle by them. Not to mention there would be less trainees for them to recruit to murder our childre and friends.

Ohhhh well. Back to the civilized world. Frustration vented.....

Sigh.......


Pantera

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
BUT if we would slaugher each and every one of their children, wives, mothers, father, and sisters and everyone else related to them. We would get their attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember in the movie "The Godfather" where young Michael Corleone (Al Pacino) is walking through a village in Sicily with his bodyguards? He sees only a few women and children hurredly doing their daily tasks and asks, "Where are all the men?" One of the bodyguards answers, "They have all been killed in the vendettas." That's how the Sicilian Mafia operated, they had to kill all the men in order to feel secure against retribution. In another "Godfather" scene Vito (Robert DeNiro), the head of the Corleone family, takes his family back to Sicily. While he's there he pays a visit to the old Mafia Don who had killed Vito's father. Years earlier, the Don had then summoned young Vito and his mother to be killed so as to keep them from taking revenge on the old Don someday. The Don killed Vito's mother but Vito escaped death that day by running away and had come back as a man to avenge his mother's brutal killing. He pays his respects to the old Don and then pulls out a large knife and guts him. Vito says to the Don as he's cutting him open, "This is for my mother." That's why we can't possibly kill all of them and hope it will end. Nobody ever forgets.

The Israeli-Palestinian (Jews vs. Arabs) conflict has been going on for basically 2000 years. Just as we say, "Never forget 9/11," they say, "Never forget" things that happened 2000 years ago and in every generation since. That's just what humans do. We never forget wrongdoing, unfair treatment, brutal killings, and on and on.

Hell, both Republicans and Democrats say, "Never forget the 2000 election!"

One very important thing worth understanding is what America means to the people of every other country on earth. It is our moral example---that America stands for things that the rest of the world wants for itself. Not just big cars and air conditioned homes, but what symbols like the Constitution and the Statue of Liberty stand for. Yes, freedom is part of it, but it is religious freedom, freedom from tyranny and opression, freedom to think and talk and travel without fear of repraisal, freedom to read what we want, free and open elections, freedom of the press, and the list goes on.

Of course, we know there are problems with some of those freedoms and how we percieve them, but I think you get my drift.

What will probably be the outcome of the post-9/11 world is that America will continue to lose credibility in the Muslim world. I know that we invaded Iraq to plant the seeds of Democracy, but just as in farm crops, sometimes the soil just is not fertile and the seeds can't flourish and grow. Maybe Democracy can take hold in the Middle East, but I doubt it. There's a lot of pissed-off young men over there (insurgents, etc.) and as Pantera said, they see death as the road to Eternal Paradise. That's why I said that we will have to kill almost all of them, a-la the Sicilian Mafia's example, if we are to prevail.

Let's say we kill 90% of all Muslims on earth. What will other countries then think? "We're next!" is what they'll think. We have to respond to terrorists. We have to kill them, more of them than us, LOTS more of them. But it won't stop terrorism. It may subside for a few years, or perhaps decades, but it will always be a tactic against a larger, more powerful force.

"The War on Terror" is really a poor choice of words. It works as a sound bite on the evening news but its true meaning can never be achieved---how do we know when we've won? Terrorism may subside and politicians may declare "victory," but there will still be snakes out there in the grass and we just can't kill all of them. Just look at "The War on Drugs." How's that war going? Our police, FBI, DEA and other law-enforcement agencies fight the good fight day after day, year after year, decade after decade, and you can still get any illegal drug you want just a short drive (or walk) from your home. Or, just ask your teenage kid to get some at their school. Remember the mid-80s song "Smuggler's Blues" by Glen Frey? One line goes, "You ask any DEA man, he'll tell you there's nothing we can do." This isn't to say that we need to stop fighting. On the contrary, we need to keep on fighting and fighting and fighting, knowing, however, that such wars are probably forever ongoing.

Bin Laden has said that this latest chapter in the great jihad may take "100 years." He preaches that time is on their side. They don't have elections every four years either. The upside is that bin Laden's words and actions have brought America together (for the most part). The downside is that bin Laden's words and actions have brought the Muslim world together (for the most part) as well.

I'm home sick with a cold all week, kids are in school, wife's working, and that's why I have so much time to talk about this stuff. I'd much rather listen to Charlie outline the differences between a '69 Camaro Z/28 with power disc brakes vs. a JL8 car's setup. That's MUCH more interesting.

Okay Charlie, on that note, lead us back from the abyss and into the garage.

[Kim_Howie]

Tom, Check Kerry's voting record before you bash Bush. Anybody that votes it's OK !! to spit on the the Flag. I have a problem with...........................