Mecum Auction Hemi Fest

[LS6 RAT]

Guys,

I just read the ad that NJSteve posted above. If you read the ad, I don't think there is anything said that is not truthful. It says 3 fender tag (it doesn't say original), it says body matching numbers (it doesn't say engine original), it says Galen believes it to be one of the most optioned cars (it doesn't say they are factory installed). The description could be taken as implied, but it is very carefully written/worded, and I think a buyer would have a tough time disputing the ad as stated.

[quick-bowtie]

I dont own the car anymore so if it sells for a dollar or a million I really dont care.. I am friends with the current owner but to say the ad is misleading and especially fraudulent get real!

How is this not a real deal car with matching body numbers?? The car is 100% a REAL 1971 HEMI CAR and Correct me if Im wrong but in the Mopar world matching body numbers mean original COWL, RADIATOR SUPPORT AND VIN TAG (all are stamped with the vin..( at least thats what Ive always been told and from the 10 or so HIGH end Mopar collectors I know they all say the same) all of which clearly this car has. So where is the lying coming in?

Say a Camaro on the Zl1 list is found and it has all its original hidden vins and original vin on the car is it real? Case in point the Green ZL1 that was found in California dressed as a Z28 with a small block.. restored to original with correct parts.. Nice write up about the car and sold for fair money.. Was that car not REAL? Because Id sure like to have it! Not a numbers car but didnt sell for numbers money either just like this Cuda will.

Im just confused NO where does that Hemi car say its NUMBERS MATCHING CAR, it just says matching body numbers to let people know its not a rebody because there are a couple floating around.

I personally dont see anything misleading thing with the ad, most people spending that kind of coin ask questions too. There is a ton of PROOF it is a Hemi car, Good docs, Galen made the tags and doc'd the car (most take his word as being good) it has had a very nice nut and bolt resto?? Im sure Galen will be on site at the auction, and his report will be available on the car..so what gives? The car is what it is and wont bring Numbers Matching money.. Infact I bet the owner will lose money on this car because the Mopar market has taken such a BIG BIG HIT.

Should the ad read old 1971 Cuda with trunk pan replaced and upper valance, body numbers are present and match but look for yourself, found in Florida by a couple Mopar guys, have some papers that are in a book, some guy from Wisconsin looked at it and said its real, looks good it has been worked on.

Do you think the owner is trying to hide something?? I pretty sure if he was Greg and Toms names wouldnt have been mentioned because most Mopar guys know the car as the Barber Shop car that was in the magazines back in the early 90's.

The car has a correct dated Hemi out a late 1970 Hemi Cuda, most parts are correct dated, it has a Dana 60, Hemi 4 Speed and restored back what Galen has stated it was. I guess if someone is a fraud it would he him then?? pretty sure most Mopars guy wouldnt agree with you on that one. Im not saying Galen is God but when it comes to a Mopar I myself trust him more than any other guy 100%.

Im not trying to start a war just curious why a legit Hemi car is getting questioned? And why the same fraudulent charges havent been made about 70% of the other cars out there that we all know about?

P.S. Yes Marlin those pics bring back great memories.. It was just like that!

[njsteve]

That is great that you were able to track down the paper trail history on the car. It was a really neat car and not that bad a shape either, other than the trunk floor and rear window channel. I wish I had to foresight to have bought it, since at the time I had an NOS 1970 dated 426 Hemi engine sitting in my garage not 50 feet from where the car was parked. We built and dyno tested that engine for a later article.

No doubt whatsoever that it's a real car but that auction-speak sure raises my hackles. It reminds of of Slick Willy Clinton and the old "It all depends on what your definition of is, is" speach. I hate having to decypher what a seller is saying nowadays. I long for the old days when matching numbers actually meant "original born with, stamped at point of assembly and installation into vehicle at said original assembly plant prior to delivery to original destination dealer in year of manufacture" without having to specifically spell that out in an ad.

Maybe I (like most people on this site) am just cursed by the fact that I know a lot about these cars and I can see that someone with far less knowledge (and far more money) may buy it thinking it is more than what it is described as. And then that person will get all lawyerly when they think the car was described in a way that was not up to their interpretation of what the terms meant. (The old meeting of the minds, in legal speak.) Then again it's a world of "Caveat Emptor" to quote Greg Brady in the infamous 57 Chevy ragtop episode.

I guess I am too nice, When I sell a car I put it all out there for the world to know. No carefully worded descriptions. Using my best Jack Webb Dragnet voice: "Just the facts m'aam..."

[Hylton]

Fraud is a strong word in this case and I mis spoke but from the ad, you do not get the sense the car was at one time a shell of it's former self.

Steve's information (and yours) gives potential buyers more disclosure about the history of the car and that is never a bad thing.

[HEMIBEE]

I find it hard to believe that car sold in 1992 for 10,000, if it did somebody was asleep at the wheel, i remember an article where Tom Shaw said he was trying to hold a straight face when they were buying it. I also find it funny that Galen can make tags for this car and its ok for some reason (take the yellow canada L-89) with the tag issues, dont get me wrong the car looks great and is a real car because of the body numbers, but it shouldn't have tags backed up by one mans opinion on FACTORY installed options,esp. when the car was 23 years old when he looked at it. I just hope that this car is presented as such, Ask Mr. Norm how many options he added to cars at the dealer to get them sold, "buyer beware"

[njsteve]

By the way I would be more than happy to have that car back alongside my garage again. If we could just move the decimal points over to the left a couple spaces on the selling price, maybe I could afford it again.

[Mr70]

Tell me you at least kept the Chrysler 8tk demo tape..

[quick-bowtie]

So are you saying the body numbers are re-stamped? Just curious because I was told they were 100% original from the factory by a few different guys including Galen Id sure would like to know if I got taken! As for the the options alot are just some crazy off the wall options, nothing to really add alot of value to the car. I dont know why it is that if Galen makes a tag its as good as gold thats just the way with the Mopars are I guess..I know alot of research was done on the car so maybe they talked to the original owner and got the scoup.. I tracked down 2 of the previous owners in just a few minutes on the net.. They still live in Florida not far from where it was sold new. Either way its documented as to having Galen made the tag and has never been advertised other wise. Again the price will reflect what the car is and most guys buying a 71' Hemi car will spend $50 to talk to Galen and get his opinion on the car.

I believe Galen tracked down all the previous owner info and titles.. There is a recipt from the state of Florida to Galen from back then so the must have had copys and the original bill of origin on file back then. The car has only had I believe 4 owners if I remember correctly.

Either the car is what it is.. It is definatley cool that the historys of these cars can be brought up and people remember them.. Steve I cant beieve you didnt jump on it especially if you had a Built Hemi just sitting there.. temptation what have definately gotten the better of my forsure. Then again the car would probably be in 2 pieces today also..lol

Im pretty sure if the car sells the new owner will be happy with what he gets for the money.

[Johnny Horsepower]

Sorry quicky, I can't agree. I can only agree with the Clinton comparison. I know everyone wants to get the most for their car, but that description demands disclosure of a nom motor and non-original fender tags.
"Car is 3 Fender Tag car" we don't know if it is or not!
That wording, to me, implies that it came that way.

As a buyer i would rather get a good and true full description of the car. Facts like it has a good and correct date coded motor. Eventually a buyer will see the attempt at "deception by omission" and will now doubt the whole car and probably walk.
I am from the camp of put the whole ball of wax out there, not semantic games.

that said, i hope the car does well. Its a very nice real, NOM, made up fender tag with great un documented options and a great looking resto 71 hemicuda.

knowing the truth, you can't read that description and not feel a little violated.

just my opinion,

Respectfully,

John

[quick-bowtie]

Im still lost to where it says it has the original drivetrain or even comes close to stating that? I can see the point on the fender tags and I dont know what his wording will be on the car when it cross's the block or what will be on the windsheild.. what is written on the website is just a quick prelim you send in to get your auction number.. If you look at Mecums coffee table book they just sent out they write there own ads for that.. its all hipe to get you there and then you look and see what you are going to bid on.

Here is what I know and go by when buying a Collector Car..

If the ad doesnt say NUMBERS MATCHING then it isnt..

Numbers Matching body numbers doesnt not come close to meaning Matching Numbers Drivetrain. (basically means its not a re-body)

ORIGINAL BORN WITH Numbers Matching means just as it states.. From the factory original!

Number Matching means just that take it with a grain of salt because more than likely its a restamp..(Or at least take a darn good look)

This is what I go by when buying and I make sure to ask too.. I didnt write the rules I just learned to adapt to them in this day and age. The wording seems to change daily and it is sad you cant take a guys word anymore but thats just the way it is when there is huge money invovled. As we all know you can still be taken even then that is where websites such as this are full of value and knowledge and can save your a**!

If someone is interested in the Hemi Cuda mentioned above.. It is a very nice car with a correct dated hemi engine with 3 tags that Galen made and goes by. If you want a REAL Hemi car with its original body numbers intact and cant afford or dont want to pay $800k and up for a Born with original numbers matching drivetrain 4 speed car, you will be more than happy with this car for well under 500k.

Again it isnt my car anymore so I cant say what the new owner will have for his real listing at the auction, but I can 100% promise if you ask him he will tell you its not a numbers matching car and Galen made the tags. 2 questions I would personally ask before bidding.. just common sense.

I would bet the auction ad will say it has a correct dated motor because most know its not a numbers car and the owner will want everyone to know it aleast has a correct dated engine. As for the tags that is what Galen has stated.. I dont know why he would add options he felt werent on the car to begin with.. when he doesnt even like making a tag for a car unless he knoes the history. Also if he was to put options on the tag that werent there Im sure he would have added BillBoards to the list because there not listed on the tag. Before you say it I know he has no way of Knowing what options the car came with forsure but he is pretty darn good at what he does so If I was in the market for a 1971 Hemi Cuda and couldnt afford 1/2 Million to 1 Million and really want a REAL car Id be more than happy with this car as Im sure who ever bids on it will. Ive never really heard of some guy dropping a million bucks on a car with out having it checked out in the first place.. Buyer beware does come in to place I guess, but so does stupidty at that point if you think your buying a million dollar car 50 cents on the dollar. JMO