russo and steel chop job camaro copo

[Steve Shauger]

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certified pedigree by NCRS or Bloomington or other judging associations gain some status/recognition.

[/ QUOTE ] Steve,Do any of them check hidden vins etc before handing out an award?? I think the rebody problem is more prevalent and easier to pick up in camaros and metal body cars etc than it is in corvettes as there is no metal to weld in,only tag removal and replacement . The frame numbers on corvettes are usually rusted away in many cases,and a frame change doesnt constitute a rebody anyway.

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I used two corvette judging programs as examples only. My point was usually cars that have questionable pedigree stay away from recognized judging/certifiers. Also if the hidden VINS were installed correctly(illegally) on a rebody, it would be almost impossible to tell without stripping the paint off and examining very closely. However there are a myriad of misrepresentations that are easily detected.

I will tell you several years ago we had a car an orange L89 convert that wanted to enter our program. During our prequalification process I did a little searching regarding the cars history. Yes this was the very low mileage orig paint car. I was able to track down I believe the second owner and found the car was originally a 327 210hp , powerglide car. The second owner built it as a clone(I confirmed this with the restorer) and sold it as a clone. When he sold the car he protected himself by having the buyer of the clone sign a document stating the cars status as a clone. Ultimately this car was rejected by our program. Somehow during subsequent ownership it became a REAL car and became fully documented and interestingly one of the posters in this thread might own it.

[olredalert]

-----The buyer removed the cowl panel and significantly damaged it when removing the wiper blades??? Presumably, the buyer didnt know "for sure" when he removed the cowl panel that there had been any alterations. That came after the removal. Why wasnt the buyer more careful and why is it Drews or the sellers responsibility to repair the damage??? Rebody or not the car has value and it sounds as if the buyer just tore into the car, willfully damaging it.........Bill S

[COPO 70 RS/Z28]

I don't think the point of this is that the seller is not responsible, HE IS, and it should bite him regardless of what he claims he know and when.

The point should be a proactive approach to solving the problem of a growing perception that the auction is not a place where one can buy with confidence. Look at ebay for example, look at like items one sold by a seller with 1000 positives and no negatives vs a seller with no history or a large percentage of negatives and see who captures the bids and the higher sale price. The problem IMHO moving into the future is perception and the steps which could be taken to stop the erosion of public confidence in the process. Lets not forget that from strictly a business standpoint in order for the car hobby/business to continue to flourish the client base needs to expand at a certain rate. In order to do this new less experienced people will need to come on board. So these new clients need to have confidence that the hobby/industry has credibility, especially at the dollars prime examples demand.

So where do we go form here? How does the auction house keep business and gain business is the ultimate question. The one way IMO that they will loose business is if the perception, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE REAL TRUTH IS, continues to follow the path which I feel it is heading down. As more stories surface with buyers trying to throw blame ever where but on them selves the water gets pretty muddy and negative perception, right or wrong, comes a long with it.

It is a tough job to put all the things together and pull off a great event. I give the auction guys a ton of credit and with the liability issues in our all to sue happy society I can surely relate to the concerns stated above.

Being proactive may pay a larger dividend in the long run.

Just my opinion.

[lowmile]

A friend of mine (Tom Williams) made a statement to me a few years ago. He said, "You buy REAL cars, from REAL people". There are plenty of cars available in just about any configuration, take your time and buy one from a REAL person. Most Serious car guys will let you do any type of investigation you want with a small refundable deposit, if the car is not represented correctly. If you are not doing business with this type of seller you need to move on. You are playing Russian roulette trying to buy a high dollar car in a high pressure situation. Looks like it's time to renew my membership. Thanks for the best site on the net SYC. Mark

[king_midas]

yeah lowmile that may be so. However, this hobby is dynamic-- People move, sell, die off, etc., and the cars find their way back out into the world in a myriad of different ways.

My personal feeling is that I don't think you can stop it. Period, end of story. These cars are too numerous. Mass-produced, modular builds-- One right after the other. Same body as a base V-8 houses an aluminum 427. Used cars that became give-aways for a long time that turned into investments in portfolios. Now every X44 that is unearthed for a given time spread has the potential of being a COPO. And in the right skilled hands, that junkyard find with the right heater box, engine mounts, and hole in the firewall theoretically is a COPO. Kinda crazy if you ask me, as I'm stupid, and I could pull this COPO fix-up off over a weekend with the right old parts laying around.

The NCRS is a great example of the machine being bigger than the man. Specifically (and I guess this is open for debate as well), in no one marque is numbers-fluffing more rampantly spread than the Corvettes, and the NCRS finally had to adopt re-stamps and switch-a-roos as part of the hobby.

Anywhere there's the potential of money to be made, this is what happens. And it's not Drew's fault. Just the way it is my friends...

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah lowmile that may be so. However, this hobby is dynamic-- People move, sell, die off, etc., and the cars find their way back out into the world in a myriad of different ways.



My personal feeling is that I don't think you can stop it. Period, end of story. These cars are too numerous. Mass-produced, modular builds-- One right after the other. Same body as a base V-8 houses an aluminum 427. Used cars that became give-aways for a long time that turned into investments in portfolios. Now every X44 that is unearthed for a given time spread has the potential of being a COPO. And in the right skilled hands, that junkyard find with the right heater box, engine mounts, and hole in the firewall theoretically is a COPO. Kinda crazy if you ask me, as I'm stupid, and I could pull this COPO fix-up off over a weekend with the right old parts laying around.

The NCRS is a great example of the machine being bigger than the man. Specifically (and I guess this is open for debate as well), in no one marque is numbers-fluffing more rampantly spread than the Corvettes, and the NCRS finally had to adopt re-stamps and switch-a-roos as part of the hobby.

Anywhere there's the potential of money to be made, this is what happens. And it's not Drew's fault. Just the way it is my friends...

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No one is saying its Drews fault period. We are having a dialog attempting to reduce bogus cars from becoming the status quo. He has an interest in this regard, by protect his business and clients when possible.

[firstgenaddict]

Carl you are right... A person's Perception (right or wrong) is their reality and anything a sales venue can do to instill more confidence in the buyers decisions will only enhance the prices and completed sales.
I do not know where this is all going to end, but I beleive that some serious monetary penalties (full commissions both ways plus a penalty of a % of the hammer price) assesed against sellers would do alot to curb this crap.
I also believe that if someone is selling a car they are responsible for correctly representing it, or if they do not have the expertise, finding someone who can correctly represent it.

[Charley Lillard]

Can we all bow our heads in a moment of sympathy for PhilS. He called awhile ago just pissed because he had just spent about a half hour typing a post containing all he knew about the RS COPO but when he hit "post" it said something like "can't continue" He hit the back button and it all was gone. This is the second time . The first time was the other night when he tried to do it under "quick reply".......

[x Baldwin Motion]

ooo I feel his pain. Hang in there Brother.

[92646]

Been there done that. I am wondering what Pete (the buyer)would do if he was the seller? What would he do to make this right?
Mark Sheppard