1970 Camaro witch craft II

[RichSchmidt]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Astock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Rich,

Am I seeing things, it looks like the the Roman numeral 11 in the vintage picture only comes up to the height of the t that's next to it. In the more recent photos, the Roman 11 is the same height as the f ? </div></div>

I would say that the car was DEFINATLY repainted or relettered since the early pic. The Roman Number 2 is hard to see,but I think you are correct. The biggie is that on the front fender of the restored car the entire &quot;well&quot; in Hallowell is reduced in size and positioned over the wheel opening while in the vintage pic the W is the same size as the Hallo and there seems to be a slightly wider space and the &quot;ell&quot; is reduced in size over the wheelwell. I wouldnt call that the be-all/end-all of authenticity,but it raises some questions. The guy claims that he bought it and raced it until he put it in a museum 35 years ago. Somebody put a used race car in a museum in the prime of it's useful life,and long before anybody knew it was collectable? He says that he raced the car for years with a different person's name on the side? In the owner's defense though,the paint job is cool IMO and I could see him wanting to keep it if he could have just lightly sanded and buffed the lettering off. I couldnt fault him for that.

I am going to refrain from going off on a tangent until I get more info. I have numerous messages out to some of the key people in the early years of this car including Charlie Kampp himself.

A great situation to come of this was that there was another simuilar car from Hallowell even nif it wasnt named Witchcraft,maybe even a pro-stocker. I dont want to rain on this guys parade,I hope we both have something special,but one thing is for sure,I know that I do!

[RichSchmidt]

Just to let you guys know why I am saying what I am saying I just weant you to put yourself in my position. Here are some of the things that have led me to where I am today with this car.

My NCRS report




My rear frame rails are intact,and the original build before the ladder bars was done with big tires and stock leaf springs moved in,as per Super Stock specs. You can also see some of the factory orange overspray over the original brown primer if you look where the floor meets the rocker.





My car has a Dana 60 that formerly had the relocated leaf spring pads to match this car's chassis. It has 5.38 gears,not the 5.57's of the restored car.



And the real cincher,my car was born Orange(has the original orange overspray over the original brown oxide primer) and had yellow/black stripes over the top. The exterior of the car was stripped to bare metal when the car was painted white,but luckily whoever did it wasnt ambitous enough to strip the jams. I have found the yellow and black paint in many areas of the car that would match the stripe pattern,but one place that there isnt any yellow or black is in the area UNDER where my cowl tag WAS. The cowl tag is now gone.



Also,This car was in the possesion of at least 2 times,or maybe 3 of a guy who is known to be a &quot;wheeler dealer&quot; type,and I have first hand knowlage of him buying and selling at least one VIN and trim tag to build a bogus car,and he made it sound to the seller of the VIN(who owned a tubbed out race car that started life as a rare car) that this was a common occurance that he did all the time. This guy is definatly not on the up and up.

This car has been updated a few times over the years,and was even worked on my SRD in the late 70's,it is obvious that a lot has been changed but there is still a lot of details left behind.

I just wanted to put it out there as to why I am saying what I am saying,and that I am not just a kook looking to stir up trouble. The NCRS report is what prompted my actions,and I would think that anybody who was in the same position as me would be looking for answers regardless of what the outcome is.

[RichSchmidt]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Astock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey Rich,

Am I seeing things, it looks like the the Roman numeral 11 in the vintage picture only comes up to the height of the t that's next to it. In the more recent photos, the Roman 11 is the same height as the f ? </div></div>

I actually had a pic of this car in my photobucket. I guess it never caught my attention because I was too caught up in my car's history as a possible pro stocker and SRD association rather then thinking that it could have been a sportsman car.

I also can tell that this pic was not taken when the car was new. First,the car in front of it was no earlier then a 73 Olds since that was the first year for that body style. Second,the car has the later design Super Tricks on the front(unlike the Jenkins/Landy style flat centers) and they didnt come out until 1972.

[RichSchmidt]

Actually I noticed that the descrepancy on the way the &quot;well&quot; on the fenders is bacause of the pics being of 2 different sides of the car. My vintage pic of the right side of the car shows the same spacing as the restored car. But a new thing that caught my eye is that the name on the door is signifigantly taller on the restored car.

[PeteLeathersac]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichSchmidt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Astock]...the car in front of it was no earlier then a 73 Olds since that was the first year for that body style...
</div></div>

Not that being earlier helps any but along w/ other GM divisions, 1971 was actually the first year for their new full size body styles including these Olds 98's.
The 71's have vented louvers in their trunklids, Chevys too...tough to see but it looks like this car may have the vents?
Very cool car!
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

[RichSchmidt]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeteLeathersac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RichSchmidt</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[quote=Astock]...the car in front of it was no earlier then a 73 Olds since that was the first year for that body style...
</div></div>

Not that being earlier helps any but along w/ other GM divisions, 1971 was actually the first year for their new full size body styles including these Olds 98's.
The 71's have vented louvers in their trunklids, Chevys too...tough to see but it looks like this car may have the vents?
Very cool car!
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

</div></div>

Hot Damn! You are sharp. I grew up in a Family that drove mostly full size Oldsmobiles. I had to look into that. You are correct,not only was 71 the first year of the new body style,and I see the trunk lid vents too! I lernt sumtptin new taday! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-Ninet...=US_Cars_Trucks

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Rich, I had to go back and re-read the early posts to figure out where you are going with this. Are you speculating that your car is actually the W/craft II car and the car for sale is a copy of sorts?? Sorry for being a bit slow.....

[RichSchmidt]

Thats where I am going with this. The seller of the restored car claims it is original and has been in his private collection for decades. My car is from Hallowell,was built as a race car back then,I have history of that back to 1976,and it has what looks to be the same paint job under the existing white paint job,but only in the jams. Like I said,my car was involved with someone of questionable eithics,and is missing the trim tag. I am not ready to call the other guy's car a fake,but something is weird here. The other car is supposed to be unrestored,yet aside from some variations in the lettering(which I deemed plauseable) I also noticed that there are a different number of stripes on the bottom half of the restored car(7) vs the vintage pics(5). Just sayin.

[Astock]

The NCRS and the paint in the trunk are pretty big. If I didn't see the lettering differences between the vintage pictures and the unrestored pictures, I would still say your on to something. I hope it pans out for you.
In the mean time...chalk another one up for NCRS docs.

[iluv69s]

Id like to see the NCRS on the car for sale... just saying..