E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone! - Page 34

al8apex · #**331** 11-19-2010, 07:41 AM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: volspeed1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> ... How many Chevelles and Monte Carlos that have vins stamped on their frames had a frame swap done due to rust or crash damage? There are lots of them, <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-size: 17pt">so does that mean that original drivetrain LS6 Chevelle is no longer the car it originally was</span></span>? Oh just thinking about this can give someone a headache. </div></div>

yes, that is why the premium is paid for real cars with original parts, ESPECIALLY original paint cars ...

anyone can "make" a car from parts, there are a LOT of them, witness the green 69 RS Z for over $100k at B-J that was a TOTAL re-body from scrap, that is one documented "car in the envelope" or car FROM an envelope, as it is called.

rusty, rotted cars deserve to die and their number/VIN "retired", then their "good parts", ie the stuff that is not rotted out, axle, engine & trans can help another car live.

a dynocorn car is basically a kit car, so is anything that has had the rotted or damaged body totally replaced ... just because a portion of the roof skin is "original" does not make it an "original" car imho

al8apex · #**332** 11-19-2010, 08:16 AM

here is the nose of "that" 69 Camaro that was built from an envelope:

**black69** · #**333** 11-19-2010, 01:50 PM

I think if Bergy makes a case to the state that this is truely most of the original car the VIN tag is riveted to, he may get to keep the original VIN. I think all this has to happen before they inspect the car, ofcourse. I think that is why he is investing in the complete paper trail and contacting real people to back it up that can testify in court if need be. We are talking about a car that can be worth $250K so I don't see any issue seeing a court case in this cars future.

Some experts in the Camaro field would have to say that the dash vin was never removed (so original paint better be present), and someone would have to say some of the original firewall is remaining. Lots of work ahead (and lots of money). IF the state would judge the car is original, then heck maybe he could then replace part of the firewall that is not original to the car and call it a day (removing traces of another car's firewall). I see that as the best outcome.

Some experts would have to get a lot of money to authenticate this eBay Yenko the more I think about it, as their reputation and liability is always at risk. I do wonder how Jerry M backs up his authentications as he was innocently involved in the green Z envelop car. If Bergy is on the path I think he is on, he has to be prepared to shell out a lot of money to make his odds good on this.

**Dave Rifkin** · #**334** 11-19-2010, 01:58 PM

[/quote]anyone can "make" a car from parts, there are a LOT of them, witness the green 69 RS Z for over $100k at B-J that was a TOTAL re-body from scrap, that is one documented "car in the envelope" or car FROM an envelope, as it is called.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">rusty, rotted cars deserve to die and their number/VIN "retired", </span></span>then their "good parts", ie the stuff that is not rotted out, axle, engine & trans can help another car live.

a dynocorn car is basically a kit car, so is anything that has had the rotted or damaged body totally replaced ... just because a portion of the roof skin is "original" does not make it an "original" car imho

[/quote]

You can't be serious or, if you are, I hope you are referring to vehicles that are too far gone to be repaired. Even that is open to debate as there are many people who have the skills to save nearly any rusted vehicle. As far as I'm concerned I am happy to see these vehicles saved.

**Tracker1** · #**335** 11-19-2010, 03:24 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Rifkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote]anyone can "make" a car from parts, there are a LOT of them, witness the green 69 RS Z for over $100k at B-J that was a TOTAL re-body from scrap, that is one documented "car in the envelope" or car FROM an envelope, as it is called.

<span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">rusty, rotted cars deserve to die and their number/VIN "retired", </span></span>then their "good parts", ie the stuff that is not rotted out, axle, engine & trans can help another car live.

a dynocorn car is basically a kit car, so is anything that has had the rotted or damaged body totally replaced ... just because a portion of the roof skin is "original" does not make it an "original" car imho

</div></div>

You can't be serious or, if you are, I hope you are referring to vehicles that are too far gone to be repaired. Even that is open to debate as there are many people who have the skills to save nearly any rusted vehicle. As far as I'm concerned I am happy to see these vehicles saved. [/quote]

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img] What he said.

**Tracker1** · #**336** 11-19-2010, 03:29 PM

"How many Chevelles and Monte Carlos that have vins stamped on their frames had a frame swap done due to rust or crash damage? "

The only thing I've ever seen on Chevelle or Monte frames is the first five digits of the VIN, '13637', for example. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but when I look at the left side rear frame area adjacent to the gas tank that's all I've ever seen.

I've seen full VINs on Vette frames, of course. Please let me know if I'm looking in the wrong place. Thanks.

**PeteLeathersac** · #**337** 11-19-2010, 03:39 PM

<span style="font-style: italic">[quote=black69]"...Some experts in the Camaro field would have to say that the dash vin was never removed (so original paint better be present), and someone would have to say some of the original firewall is remaining..."[/quote</span>]

Bergy has already confirmed the Vin tag itself has indeed been removed so suggesting ideas like this also court cases and things anyone 'would have to say' sounds felonious?.

Up 'til now I thought this thread was all about Bergy's quest of gaining information and opinions to determine what any components in hand actually are also considering possibilities of them being best consolidated both legally and fairly but including suggestions such as above in this open dialogue seems to take things from exploration to contriving?.

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]
~ Pete

volspeed1970 · #**338** 11-19-2010, 03:51 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tracker1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"How many Chevelles and Monte Carlos that have vins stamped on their frames had a frame swap done due to rust or crash damage? "

The only thing I've ever seen on Chevelle or Monte frames is the first five digits of the VIN, '13637', for example. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but when I look at the left side rear frame area adjacent to the gas tank that's all I've ever seen.

I've seen full VINs on Vette frames, of course. Please let me know if I'm looking in the wrong place. Thanks.</div></div>

Depends upon the year of the Chevelle as to whether the full vin is on the frame or not. I had to work in theft investigations years ago and got a valuable lesson from the cheif investigator when it came to these old cars. One case in particular involved a car that was a mix of three different years: 1972 body, 1970 frame, 1971 engine and trans, but had a 1970 vin on the dash. It was a mess and involved four different law enforcement agencies and three states! Though I am retired,I can't divulge anything more regarding vin locations because I still do work for local agencies when needed. Someone else might chime in privately to you.

L78steve · #**339** 11-19-2010, 03:59 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: volspeed1970</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: snydes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I wonder now with the availability of full repo firewalls how many people are scrapping their confidential vins and not even realizing their significance?</div></div>

Exactly what I was thinking. This is a debate that will go on forever. Someone said earlier that the hidden vins make the car and the body doesn't. I tend to disagree because most Ford's built prior to 1953 don't have vins on the body anywhere, only on the frame and engine. That is why you see so many 32-34 Ford street rods that have fiberglass bodies with correct vins for their model of car. The builders either use an existing frame that has no body and mount a new fiberglass body on it, or they stamp a new frame with a vin to which they have a title to and install a fiberglass body. Technically either way the car is not really a 32-34 Ford....is it not? To me if the riveted vin has never been removed from the car nor the metal it is attached to been removed, then it is still the car that it once was. How many Chevelles and Monte Carlos that have vins stamped on their frames had a frame swap done due to rust or crash damage? There are lots of them, so does that mean that original drivetrain LS6 Chevelle is no longer the car it originally was? Oh just thinking about this can give someone a headache. </div></div>

It is what it is. An LS6 with a replacement frame. Still a nice car but not as desirable as an all original. Numbers are huge as far as value is concerned,any of those missing the value goes with them.

al8apex · #**340** 11-19-2010, 04:36 PM

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Rifkin</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You can't be serious or, <span style="font-weight: bold">if you are, I hope you are referring to vehicles that are too far gone to be repaired.</span> Even that is open to debate as there are many people who have the skills to save nearly any rusted vehicle. As far as I'm concerned I am happy to see these vehicles saved. </div></div>

my point exactly ...

Duesenbergs, Bugattis, AC Cobras and Shelby Mustangs are the only other cars (that come to mind) that have their serial numbers known and any <span style="font-weight: bold">tiny</span> piece from the "original" live on in a recreation ... why? Because of their value.

No one cared about these cars (Camaros) 10-20 years ago, if they were "totaled" they were parted out ... that is where all the cool HP parts come from, wrecked & totaled cars. Then the "shell" was either cut up for replacement parts (quarters, floors, cowls, roofs, etc, you know, RUST or accident damage replacement panels), sold off and either crushed or morphed back into something salable. I can't tell you how many L78 Camaros and Z28's I personally parted out in the 70's & 80's, even a Z11 Pace Car Camaro. They were worth what we could get for them and if no one wanted them whole (missing the engines already in some cases), they were parted out.

Think of all the LS series engines out of 98 & up Camaros, Firebirds and Corvettes that have departed from their "original" chassis / body / etc. They live on in all sorts of cars now.

This response was not intended to take anything away from the original theme of this thread, it was merely my opinion in response to a question posed about replacement items on a high performance (desirable) vehicle.

My apologies if anyone thinks the replies to questions raised in this thread are out of line or off topic.

What happened to this car, the car this thread is about, happened to MANY, MANY cars, not just Camaros. It was all about value and what some skilled (and in a LOT of instances, not so skilled) "body" men could make from what they had to work with.