New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma!

[70 copo]

Mark,

I agree. I have followed this thread with intrest. First off I am against trim tag removal or replacement, but this law is toothless. Now when I think of this law I wonder just how the goverment will find a bonified way to convict a bad guy with no vehicle records from GM to prove the TT is fake in the first place?

The most likely way to convict would be to get subject "B" to testify that he or she witnessed subject "A" switch the tag.

IMO the best way to fix the problem is to outlaw the tags right?

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Some random thoughts.....
I just hope this law doesn't impact innocent people negatively. Sure its a great tool in the fight against fraud, but it won't stop the problem, and isn't the total answer.
For one thing,I think that more pressure needs to be put on the manufacturers to come up with and maintain the records on the vehicle data related to the vin.
There should be hell to pay for GM simply saying "we don't have those documents". Once again the onus falls to the little guy and the big corporations are off scott free.
Imagine if you will, that GM was forced to dig up the documents that they have. There would be no question as to the authenticity of a vehicle.


[/ QUOTE ]

All of us would love nothing more than for GM to cough up those docs. Having said that, it will do nothing for fraudsters who take VIN numbers known from GM docs and turn them into cars by buying fake VIN and trim tags and slapping them on a clean body.

[ QUOTE ]

In Canada we are spoiled, because any Canadian sold GM vehicle has micro fiche stored vin based corporate documentation available to anyone with a vin,not just the vehicle owner, so there is no possibility of "faking" a tag to read what you want it to read.


[/ QUOTE ]

True but docs are not the be all and end all with respect to eliminating fraud in the hobby. As stated before, you can still make a car from nothing more than a GM of Canada doc.

[ QUOTE ]

Another thing is, I know of more than a few people who during a resto, remove the plates from the car to either dip or blast the body, and prevent damage to the plates. Having done that makes them a criminal? I don't feel that is right. A proper and complete concours resto on a rusty shell cannot occur without introducing potentially hazardous materials and processes to the tags, which are really quite fragile. I realize there is provision for this in the law, but what is to stop a person from causing trouble for someone else who has done this for legitimate reason? who is to say if it was a legitimate reason or not? It is now at his cost and expense to prove otherwise that he did not have criminal intention. Even if he is innocent its gonna cost him some money to prove his innocence.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are provisions for people who are repairing or restoring a car. It is not illegal for someone to remove the trim tag for restoration purposes.

[ QUOTE ]

Lastly keep in mind, that in the eighties and early nineties before there was so much aftermarket sheetmetal available, a common and generally accepted way of fixing a really rusty rare car was to re-body it fully or partially.
I really thought nothing of people who were replacing rusty muscle car bodies with six cylinder grandma car rust free bodies, it all seemed fine and good, and actually a lot of people preferred this method as it retained the factory assembly techniques and engineering, which was better than hammered up patch panels ,bondo and chicken wire.
Are the people who currently buy and sell these cars from early restorations headed for the slammer too?.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just remove the fake tag.

[ QUOTE ]

Another casualty will be people who have been unknowingly ripped off and (also unknowingly) own a fake tagged car. They will potentially be criminals when they do not deserve to be.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well if they are attempting to "pass the buck" then yes, they should be. If someone found out they were screwed and then turned around and tried to sell the car as is to someone else, then they are guilty of fraud. Remember the law uses the word "knowingly" so if someone truly believes that they are selling a legitimate car even though they are not, then the law would not apply to them but rather look at who he bought the car from and so-on. Whoever placed the trim tag on the car is the one who ultimately guilty. If someone finds out he bought a dud and then wants to sell it, I suggest removing the trim tag and leaving the car without one or buy a fake trim tag with the word "replacement" on it.

[king_midas]

Hylton - So basically what you're saying with your last statement is that the man/woman that got ripped off, maybe not even knowingly, should remove the trim tag, or clearly mark it as "bastardized"; therefore almost certainly taking it hard in the buttocks, and selling that re-bodied or re-tagged Z for half to a quarter of the price that they paid for it?

Yeah-- Keep dreaming. I don't think that's going to happen.

Those in favor of this are more than well on their way to completely collapsing/wrecking the vintage GM market...

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hylton - So basically what you're saying with your last statement is that the man/woman that got ripped off, maybe not even knowingly, should remove the trim tag, or clearly mark it as "bastardized"; therefore almost certainly taking it hard in the buttocks, and selling that re-bodied or re-tagged Z for half to a quarter of the price that they paid for it?

Yeah-- Keep dreaming. I don't think that's going to happen.

Those in favor of this are more than well on their way to completely collapsing/wrecking the vintage GM market...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! So what you are saying midas is that the person who got screwed should pass the fake car on to the next guy? That's not cool either............

At least with this law that guy COULD choose to go back to the seller and get his money back, if not, the seller could face 3x damages!

[king_midas]

Uh, no, what I'm saying is that you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby.

Besides, what delusional thought do you have to think that anyone would actually own up to actually replacing a tag? Or that the poor sap that unknowingly has a car w/a replacement tag, or an unknown re-body would waste time/money to track down previous owners?

Yeah, right...

Here's a good one: "My car was being restored, and that's the way it came back to me. I had no idea..." That would be my defense, and I'd tell you to pound it.

What if that X66 you have is fake? How do you know it's not and/or what proof do you have? We all know that engine and tranny stamping can be done all over the place, and that all paperwork can be faked. Oh no, here we go...

Hey, maybe the dealer wrecked and re-bodied it... Who knows-- 1969 was 38 years ago. A guy that worked for my father years ago worked at a Ford dealer, and the maintenance guys tore up a new Boss 302 badly, which was then fixed. Hey, it's possible. Cars are nothing more than consumer goods-- Durable goods, really. So, back to the X66-- What do you do if you have to sell it, and you have to defend yourself?

See what I mean... Changes a bit, doesn't it...?

I would say that the possibility of a re-tag or re-body is just part of owning a Chevy, or any vintage car, but especially a Chevy... And that's the way it is.

[Charley Lillard]

Too easy...remove the fake tag. Yes it is not worth what it was but that is what happens when you buy a car with a fake tag. Hard to get sued if you sell it without a fake tag.

[king_midas]

What? Have you been drinking tonight? Heavily...?

Charlie-- You can't be serious. Navigate my scenario above (X66), and I'd like your thoughts.

I read this on Team Camaro-- When the factory makes errors, doesn't that set a precedence that tags were in a bucket, and the possibility exists that they were mis-attached to cars?

Maybe call some guys from Norwood to the stand to testify? Please...

I have the ultimate solution-- Just buy VN or LOS tags and VINS... It's really too easy.

You all should be mad at Chevrolet-- They've let you all down, and dropped the ball big-time on the hobbyst.

[P.J.]

I wonder that if gm is asked to produce records of a car as ordered by the court as to the originality of a car would they produce it, for only the car in question ???

PJ

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no, what I'm saying is that you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby.


[/ QUOTE ]

The people who right now have a fake trim tag are in no different position than before this law came out. Let's say for example that someone who does not know he has a faked car, sells it to someone in Oklahoma and the buyer then decides to pursue the seller through this new law, the seller would not be held liable since he did not "knowingly" sell a car with a fake trim tag. If you are attempting to sell a car with a fake trim tag, either remove it, or get an acceptable tag. If you have a car with a fake trim tag but have no desire to sell the car, just enjoy the car as this law was not written for you.

As far as the lose your arse comment, this happens every day in this hobby unfortunately. Someone buys what they thought is the real thing, only to find out later that they do not have what they thought they bought. Anyone in this situation has lost money at the buy because they paid too much for what they really have. They in fact, may be the victim of fraud themselves. If the person upon finding out he has been taken attempts to sell the car with the fake trim tag to an Oklahoman, they are guilty of the law because they know the trim tag is fake. Nobody wants to be caught holding the bag but just because you were screwed, doesn't make it right (or legal) to "pass the buck".

[Charley Lillard]

There are those that like to think of all the things wrong with something and why something won't work and there are those that do stuff like pass the Ok tag law and get things done. You can nitpick it all you want with technicalities but your average judge or jury will probably use common sense.