REAL COPO? saw what I think is REAL see my pics

[JQ]

[ QUOTE ]
Its rough cast near the oil filter on all Chevy big blocks or just the 512 and 396/375 blocks? I didn't know there were 512 blocks without stampings so they could later be restamped? You would have thought Chevy would have stamped something to denote it was a warranty or parts block? So then to create a bogus COPO you find a unstamped block and restamp the rough area and machine the pad on the front and then restamp that and get some bogus paper work and your in business? Geez that sucks. So absent prior owners and bulletproof docs how do you make sure its a real COPO or not? 3/8 inch fuel lines and specfic motor mount part numbers seems flimsy?

I would think the Yenkos would be easier since the VINs are known and you can check the two VINs on the body for welding???

[/ QUOTE ]

Does the known Vin list include the cars that had motor transplants....?

[HiHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi , Dont get me wrong, I may have used the word "confirmed" loosely.
I dont have a single thing (yet) to confirm it to be a 100% copo car, I can only say, that Jerry, said the car was pretty much all factory in having the early series engine mounts, (coded), the 3/8 inch fuel line that has never been touched, correct original radiator ,the cowl hole/harness, riginal leaf springs, original transmission, original breather (flat bottom), and numerious other copo specific items,. I have also contacted the original owner who bought the car new, again, guys, im not the expert, and I know how discussions boards go ...... I dont want to start a big arguement here, just wanted to say thanks to all who has given us the balls to actually buy the car.

(again, as I type this , Jerry has NOT given me anything to "prove its a copo" ...he just left here at 5pm today, However, you must admit, the guy does know his stuff, and everything he saw today indicated it was a copo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting situation, the car may be a COPO but without documentation or the original block ..., guess you can have the original owner sign an affidavit stating it is a COPO and the hole in the firewall was always there from birth.

[Stefano]

A few comments;

First and foremost, anyone can be a victim of Fraud, no matter how much you know about a particular car, anyone!

The rough casting by the oil filter on any Big Block can be accurately reproduced. (same as the rough casting on the back of a 428CJ etc) This is not new! It has been done for more than two decades, on many cars to include COPOs and Yenkos.

That particular VIN/location is very difficult to "Judge" or "determine" while it is in the car. Not impossible, just difficult.

Properly done frauds/fakes/rebodies "can" be virtually undetectable, in fully restored states.

Original, untouched and unrestored cars are much more difficult to fake. Possible, but much more difficult.

I certainly am not infallible and have made my fair share of mistakes. I have debated COPO/Yenko issues with every "ëxpert" mentioned in this thread and ALL have made mistakes.

In fact: I can't think of any one particular expert who I have dealt with over the past decades, whether is has involved a Ferrari, Shelby, Pontiac, Shelby, COPO/Yenko, etc., who has never made a mistake.

Since this thread is in regards to COPO Camaros, I'll stick to that issue.

Paperwork such as a buildsheet, is very rare in a 1969 Camaro, built at the Norwood Plant. I can confidently state that more than 90% of all Norwood Camaros do not have a build sheet with them today!

Companies have been reproducing protecto-plates using Vintage Blank books, vintage tape, vintage Blanks and stamped with Vintage Machines. You cannot tell the difference on an "accurate" reproduction.

Note: There are companies which will accurately reproduce VIN tags for GM, Ford and Chrysler Cars.

It is very difficult to prove anything 100%. What most Pro's do is try to Prove beyond a reasonable doubt to themselves and elliminate any situation wherein the car can't be something.

There are approx 100 specific item to look for Just on a COPO Camaro.

To use a particular car as an example and to infer that because it doesn't have factory paperwork or an original drivetrain that all such cars are not worth much, just doesn't hold water with me. Maybe it might have something to do with the quality of the resto/price etc?

I have bought sold, inspected and certified more than a few COPO Camaros and can say that most do not have all their original drive trains.

Sounds like you have indeed found an original COPO Camaro and if Jerry MacNeish provides a certificate as such, along with the other info you have uncovered and that which may still be uncovered, that you indeed have a Rare car with Collector/enthusiasts value.

ps I have seen several knowledgeable people look at the same parts, numbers and stampings and come up with varying opinions.

Congrats on locating and identifying another potentail piece of the COPO Camaro puzzle

[Les Quam]

This is the first time I have heard the stamps in the rough casting can be reproduced? Also the first time I have heard the Chevy POP repops were done with vintage plates and machine? I have always known the Chevy guys had the bogus car creation process down to a science but I didn't know how sophisticated they were?

Wow, if everything Steve said is accurate buying a Chevy is nothing more than an expensive roll of the dice? And the odds are better on the crap table on the come out roll.

Steve thanks for your refreshing candor.

[tom406]

Take lots of good pictures of all of the things Jerry says are "COPO-esque" while the car is in its unrestored shape. As Stefano points out, once restored, all of these clues will be questioned. Its not paperwork, but if you show good evidence of how you found it and why you think its real, that may help convince people down the road.

I also agree with Stefano that it certainly isn't an either/or thing when it comes to bulletproof history. Many collectibles, cars included, have a value set by whether they're definately/probably/maybe/not what you think they are. I know I've paid more for something that was "probably" a Z/28 than I would have for something that definately was not. (I was rewarded with a build sheet on the tank for my guess.)

[Hylton]

Great post Stephano!

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
Great post Stephano!

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like an unbiased opinion-from a dealer.

Gimme a break...

[L78M22Rag]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks SS for your comments regarding my black COPO Chevelle. For the record, this Chevelle was restored using the car's original A pillars and dash, along with other original parts. Call it a "rear-clip" or a rebody, I don't much care. There are plenty of old race cars that have gone through the same treatment. I have pictures of the complete restoration I will bring to Chevy-Vette Fest in April. This car was never misrepresented by me to anyone. It is what it is. And I intend to enjoy it.

[/ QUOTE ]

At what point did the black COPO become a re-body? What other parts of the car should have stayed intact to maintain the car's integrity? What's the difference if the floor, roof, rockers (all immediately adjacent to the dash assembly) are all replaced individually with GM or reproduction parts... vs the same parts being replaced intact from another car the way Ed states? Lastly, how much did it have hurt the value of the car?

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Great post Stephano!

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like an unbiased opinion-from a dealer.

Gimme a break...

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure he has a preconcieved opinion just like a CRG member would have theirs. The point is that it is possible for someone to correctly duplicate/fake a car that could get by the experts. Just ask Ed Cuneen...

[Stefano]

Point is that I can't/don't have a clue because I sell these types of cars for a living?? That point might have some validity/logic?

Another point is that everything and anything can be faked up on a car.

Shelby's/Fords, Mopars, Pontiacs are just as susceptible to this type of Fraud as Chevy's.

Anyone ever hear of a Shelby having it's tags/vins removed and screwed/riveted/welded to another Body which had properly date coded sheet metal and a stack of paperwork and owner history? I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the ones I know of.