Market for survivors...

[Lynn]

I have always said the only thing my car "survived" was a severe thrashing by young owners over its first 6 years. By 1975, looked like more of a beater.

As for the OP's original question, I believe the answer is that it already has spilled over into the muscle car market. As Bill so aptly pointed out, there is a limited market for the "survivor" that is rough around the edges. Cars like Roy Sinor's 68 Camaro SS, and Charley's 70 Z/28 are so well preserved, they did much more than just survive. Those cars and others like them, if ever sold, will bring more than a perfectly restored car, IMHO.

[MosportGreen66]

In the world of Corvettes, the market for real deal survivors is scalding hot, particularly cars with NCRS Bowtie Awards. It is the most stringent survivor award to achieve where the car is judged in 4 categories - interior, exterior, chassis and mechanical. The car must be 80% or better by what is considered untouched, unaltered, unmolested. These are are incredible machines that have had near no deviation from stock since new. Common changes include wear/tear items like hoses, battery, tires but that is really it. Taking the car apart to fix leaks, gaskets, broken parts, etc is not allowed and cars found to have significant alteration will not qualify. Additionally, cars with paint work, fluffing, or enhancing the originality is frowned upon. The cars can achieve 1, 2, 3, or 4 stars and if it meets the 4 star criteria the year team will meet to determine if the car can meet educational value standards - if so, the following year @ the NCRS National Event only, the car be awarded the coveted 5th star. Very few cars have achieved the 5th star mark. It is the hardest award mark in all levels of judging across all makes, models, etc.

Dan

[NorCam]

Originally Posted by Steve Shauger

Personally I love both correctly restored concours and unrestored, and both are rare and valuable. Just look at the market for a concours or true time capsule. There are so many segments to the hobby that no matter your taste it's there for you from Survivor, Concours restored, Protouring, Drivers, Rat Rods, Barn Finds etc. They are all good and appreciated by some segment of the hobby.

Right now I'm enjoying my drivers. Bruises and all I can take them to a cruise night not worry about someone touching or weather. In fact last week was caught in down pour with my orange RS/Z and waited it out and had a nice dinner. Like I said there's something for everyone in the hobby, and that's what makes it great.....

Totally agreeing with Steve's take on the entire hobby and I can appreciate all segments. In regards to the OP, I would think the market for true "survivor" class muscle cars has been heavy for many years, but the term has become too broadly used. IMHO, a true survivor class car is one that can be measured and weighed as an NCRS judged car, an untouched low mile specimen that remains as was originally sold, an unmolested type of car that can be considered by many as a benchmark piece.

Many of the low mile examples that are discovered over the years are appreciated my many, but are priced and marketed towards the higher end collector who can often pay a staggering amount of money to gain that low mile untouched example for their own personal collection. When a survivor type car is then altered with paint work, engine detailing and other items that have been changed...or even partially restored, that so called survivor diminishes with it's core value to a high end collector and the detraction factors then make it more of a play for the normal hobbyist. Perhaps a guy who doesn't mind that it has blown in paint, a body repair, engine rebuilds or a maybe a simple sub frame restoration. There are many of us who seek original cars with only minor changes or clean up work, but with that being said there are many original cars that would not appeal to the purist when original patina is altered in some way. For some, the word survivor means that nothing can have changed. And opinions do vary of what can be coined as a survivor.

We all know what we are seeing when a survivor car is tabled for discussion or is up for sale, and as the old saying goes, the real cream always floats to the top. For that true benchmark type survivor car; be it super car or muscle car, the market will always being strong and there will always be buyers lined up. As time moves along I think that trend will continue, but I also think that the market will continue to be strong for correctly restored cars too.

[GrumpyJeff]

I would prefer a car that's been lovingly drivin,maintained & preserved, Over a perfectly restored frame off car any day !!! while it may have some bumps & bruises & personality. With a survivor car you can tell a lot about its past owners & history just by its condition. Where a lot of these high Dollar restored cars have been used ,abused, neglegted & left for dead years ago. Only to resurface at big time auction's etc... as the most expensive, best of the best ??? I'm far from an expert on anything, but it a easy decision for me and my $$$

[NovaMob03]

Hey Jeff...I have your car!

My '69 Z has been in the classifieds for a while and I've had a few offers, but when the conversation turns to ''the cost of restoring it" hits the table my ears kinda go numb. Yes, it needs an engine refresh and detail, but is easy to see that it was well cared for, driven like it was meant to be and is a really nice 47 year old 'unrestored original'...using Darrell's term

So, it'll probably sit until the right guy see's the car the way I see it...fluffed enough to drive & enjoy & not 'restored'.

[black69]

I appreciate the responses. I myself have 3 survivor cars, and sometime think I am not the type of collector for these kind of cars. I feel maybe they belong with one level up type of collector that will preserve them better than I do, and have the funds to manage them in a more museum like environment. You got to be very very careful with a survivor, as if it gets hit at a local car show or on the way to an ice cream stop with the family, its a big hit to its value. Am I a guy that could sustain that downside if it happened? no. Could a bigger collector sustain it? yes.

So the above in a sense goes to who really is collecting the survivor super high end muscle cars. I think its folks that have really deep pockets and the ability to not drive these cars much any more. I do hope more folks do focus on collecting the survivors and protecting them/preserving them, as they are truely original once.

Take it from me, my 69 camaro, 70 challenger, and 61 vette, all have traits my restored cars do not have. The steering feels right, the smells are unique to how they when closer to new. The engines seem tighter and run better. The factory paint runs are on all of them. Its a feeling a restored car just can not nail all the time. It is cool to be in a car that was never taken apart and put back together.

[WILMASBOYL78]

Instead of classifying the cars as 'survivors' or 'restored' or...whatever??

We should come up with some good categories for 'classifying' the people in the hobby...now that would be fun

-wilma

[cook_dw]

Originally Posted by WILMASBOYL78

Instead of classifying the cars as 'survivors' or 'restored' or...whatever??

We should come up with some good categories for the people in the hobby...now that would be fun

-wilma

Originally Posted by cook_dw

DISCLAIMER: This is my own personal opinion.


Here is my take on 3 levels of the term "Survivor Car".

Time Capsule - A vehicle that was been well preserved and still attains 95 - 100% of its original born with components.

Relic - A vehicle that has been discovered after a length of time that still has many of its original components but is in need of repair or refurbishing to make it safe and/or driveable.

Unrestored Original - A vehicle that has been maintained and enjoyed over the years and still has at least 80-95% of its original components.




One could break these down further but this is how I classify "survivor" cars.


EDIT:

I pulled this from Steve's Vintage Certification Form.

Vintage Certifications are divided into five award levels:
• Vintage Time Capsule -Vehicles that are 95+% unrestored in all areas
• Vintage Legend - Vehicles that are 85+% unrestored in all areas.
• Vintage Heritage - Vehicles that are 85+% unrestored in five areas
• Vintage Legacy - Vehicles that are 85+% unrestored in four areas.
• Vintage Reference - Vehicles that are 85+% unrestored in at least two Vintage Reference Area.

[Big Block Bill]

The trademarked name "Survivor" (as far as a Corvette was concerned) was done by David Burroughs I believe in 1989 for the sole purpose to identify Corvettes that were "Worn In but Not Worn Out" . A lot of knowledge was lost from original cars back then that were being restored to better than originally built by a lot of people going after the Gold certification.

I owned a 1967 Lynndale Blue L-79 roadster that passed all 4 sections of paint, interior, chassis, and engine compartment in the first year of Bloomington Gold Survivor judging back it the first year 1990 and was one of 3 cars to form the Benchmark award in 1991. We were all given a glass circular trophy that stated Survivor on it . I just donated this trophy to the National Corvette Museum (according to them they have never seen one before) this past May (Survivor winners after 1990 received a certificate like Gold or Benchmark awarded cars got) along with Benchmark photos and other items. The term "Survivor" has been loosely used in all brands, years, makes, and models of cars in the past 15-20 years. It's all personal opinion, but my belief is "Survivor" was (in the beginning) for Corvette only, hence the trade mark of the word. I hope I have not offended anyone here, this was not reason for posting.

Bill

[Mr70]

You now owe David Burroughs some royalties Bill.