1969 Copo ?

[COPO CARTEL]

Some of these cars have been lost to badged up Z28 race cars ....I have been lucky ....of all the cars that I have purchased most of them did not have certain drivetrain components nor paperwork ...but based upon my inspection ...I considered them to be COPO cars....and not one has failed me thus far. My point is only to say if you do enough homework then eventually it pays off. We had this issue with the Radical One when we inspected it 2 weeks before the auction took place. It is healthy to disagree but wrong to discredit any particular car until it has been inspected...and only then it becomes an opinion. My black COPO was discredited...and with homework ...it was found to be one body number off another documented COPO from the same dealership and further homework turned up Joe Patrick of Marion Ohio ...the original owner. My point is ...you just can't quit on a car or part it out just because you have no paperwork or some/all of the drivetrain is missing.

[70 copo]

Since Doug has mentioned the black car in his post above the time is ripe to discuss it as my experience with it falls in line with the topic content.

The car was presented to me as an SS 396 but previously sold by a dealer as a COPO

The car had a rear end that was not a BE and had an assembly date that matched the production date range of the body/ VIN#.

Car had a reproduction Tach

Car had Q-Jet fuel lines on it.

Seller was evasive when I asked to do a more in-depth inspection. Seller became a non seller soon after and sold the car telling the buyer that I had verified the car as a COPO.

[COPO CARTEL]

Hmmm different story ....I was told that you inspected the car and the both of you could not agree upon a price. The seller contacted me after the both of you could not get a deal done.. that was his words to me . He never said it was a COPO ..but was hoping it to be and asked me to come and inspect the car. The Rearend in question was dated 10-8-69. That would be almost 2 weeks after the build date on the car ....as you looked at the reproduction tach you concluded that it was a 396 low horse car...and inspecting the date and axle code was a start to an intense inspection ..... I am the one that brought it to your attention that is was a reproduction tach and the big block heater box had never been touched.... As well as the trim tag with X 11 code had not been messed with or altered. Also some other COPO traits were still there . I guess the original owner Joe Patrick was the ace in the hole as I found him approx 9 months after I purchased the car. He is approx 74 years old and lives on Marion Ohio. Doing ones homework does pay off.... This particular car went on to score Legends at GM Carlisle.

[DW31S]

A little off topic but, would a bonafide, documented, unrestored, ex-factory backed & dealer-sponsored '69 W-31 stick be welcome at the race Stefano speaks of in one of his latest posts? 'Cause I'm all about that "Wheels Up" stuff!!! I'm changing the rear and installing some fresh M&Hs for this upcoming season. 2013 was an uneventful year due to my back surgery----2014 should be a whole lot more fun!!!

[Stefano]

Absolutely!

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C O P O CARTEL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hmmm different story ....I was told that you inspected the car and the both of you could not agree upon a price. The seller contacted me after the both of you could not get a deal done.. that was his words to me . He never said it was a COPO ..but was hoping it to be and asked me to come and inspect the car. The Rearend in question was dated 10-8-69. That would be almost 2 weeks after the build date on the car ....as you looked at the reproduction tach you concluded that it was a 396 low horse car...and inspecting the date and axle code was a start to an intense inspection ..... I am the one that brought it to your attention that is was a reproduction tach and the big block heater box had never been touched.... As well as the trim tag with X 11 code had not been messed with or altered. Also some other COPO traits were still there . I guess the original owner Joe Patrick was the ace in the hole as I found him approx 9 months after I purchased the car. He is approx 74 years old and lives on Marion Ohio. Doing ones homework does pay off.... This particular car went on to score Legends at GM Carlisle. </div></div>
I hear you... first of all I want to say congrats on your COPO!!... but what the seller told you is not true. There was no price discussion

We did not get that far and I told you that when you contacted me after you bought the car, and again in our public &quot;Discussion&quot; at Good Guys.

After I found the car I discussed some initial reasons with the seller as to why I had doubts the car was a COPO: Low horse Tach, Q jet lines, Cowl hood with no guts, fresh looking radiator that did not match the patina of the rest of the engine compartment and the BB Heater box looking new or refinished... then there is the rear end discrepancy.

Already researching the book I reached out to the Norwood repair guys. These guys were the repair men at AGR and Supervision in 1969.

I was told that it was not at all uncommon for a car to sit in the plant holding lot out back for replacement parts to arrive and this could be well over a week or sometimes longer to get parts to repair -- especially on specialty low volume Hi Performance parts as the HOT specialty parts in the pipeline were already build committed-so replacement parts had to be salvaged or ordered for repair.

At the time I was thinking perhaps the car was a factory COPO with a defective BE rear? Perhaps the rear that finally made it to the car was a replacement rear end to get the car off to the dealer? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] I was really trying to talk myself into the possibility.

Next I contacted Arena Auto Sales and spoke to the salesman who placed the AD stating the car was a COPO which the seller had framed and on display with the car.

Arena Auto Sales guy remembered the car stated the car was dressed as a 396 but the TT was incorrectly coded for a 396 factory build. When I asked him why they advertised it as a COPO? He stated that the info on COPO's had just been released by the USCC at the time they had the car for sale and since the car had &quot;big block stuff on it&quot; and the car had a &quot;curved neck Radiator&quot; &quot;we advertised it as a COPO&quot;.

Several weeks passed and I called the seller back and told him I wanted to inspect the car again and I would take three hours to look it over and If I was convinced it was a COPO we would discuss the price. He took that one call from me and told me he would get back to me the next day. He did not call me back. I tried calling him again leaving messages to call me. I had all but forgot about the car until about 18 months later - my Secretary told me &quot;some Camaro guy was on the phone&quot; and that day you had told me you had purchased the car having gotten my information from the seller in Ashville.

On the Tach.. Yep I am giving your restoration guy the credit for stating it was a reproduction and I have no reason to disbelieve him to state otherwise would be to enter into a debate that is not needed. I think we both agree it was a low horse tach and obviously contributes nothing to proving COPO or not.

Again this discussion should not be taken as questioning Doug's car or his research. <span style="font-weight: bold">Again CONGRATS on your COPO Doug.</span>

This story does underscore the thread topic of discussion here of just how darn hard it is to authenticate a COPO car when the entire drivetrain is long gone.

[camaromb]

Didn't the black car have the original X11 coded trim tag? X11 coded 396 car?

[bergy]

Good discussion - sounds like Doug saw enough on physical inspection to take a chance - then, to his credit, he tracked down the OWNERSHIP HISTORY. People fake paperwork &amp; people fake car parts, but it's a lot harder to fake complete ownership history with contact info. I've had the same great experience tracking down old owners (with the holp of some really nice people on this site).
I truely wish that I could add more to the subject of this thread (the green RS car) - the owner hasn't called back yet.

[COPO CARTEL]

Yes Mark you are correct ...we are attempting to upload a photo of the engine compartment just after the motor was taken out by Dave McGaffee. We are challenged at the tech world Lol

[GrumpysToy]

Here is a picture of Doug's Black COPO after I removed the engine. Single fuel line cut off at firewall, original heater box, original cowl induction selonoid and throttle arm etc....