Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please

Rick H · #1 11-05-2006, 04:46 PM

I am being serious about this and would like to know what some of you believe the term "numbers matching" means.

Must a restored car (or any car for that matter) have it's original born with parts to be considered a numbers matching car or can the car have the correct year parts with correct part numbers and date codes but not born with original?

Thanks
Rick H.

COPO_Anders · #2 11-05-2006, 05:00 PM

To me it means that it has its "born with" engineblock,transmissioncasing and rearend. I accept that parts that wear out, like waterpumps,pistons,transmissionparts and rearendparts are not "born with".

Stuart Adams · #3 11-05-2006, 05:06 PM

#1. Numbers Matching should mean the #'s match, restamps, etc. but not original born with.
#2. Original Born With should be the proper term for components that match and are original and correct born with parts.

There needs to be "original born with" terminology used nowdays. If the car has the original born with parts it should not be advertised as numbers matching it should state "original born with numbers matching parts."

If you have the POP and restamp the numbers on a different not born with part that is date correct there should be "not original born with but numbered and dated correct part" term used.

The lay person may buy a car that says numbers matching and yes they may match but the value is different if the numbers match with born with parts. IMO.

A car with born with parts should also be worth more, IMO.

COPO CARTEL · #4 11-05-2006, 05:07 PM

The key word would be ORIGINAL numbers matching car obviously this drasticly improves the value of the car. Also it is up to the owner to disclose ALL of the facts about the car. Numbers matching like you said could be correct part #'s and dates. We all know there are people willing to misrepresent numbers matching because of the all mighty buck.

**John** · #5 11-05-2006, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To me it means that it has its "born with" engineblock,transmissioncasing and rearend. I accept that parts that wear out, like waterpumps,pistons,transmissionparts and rearendparts are not "born with".

[/ QUOTE ]
......
....That's what the car dealers want the public to believe
....but thats not the reality of things
.....
...."Matching Numbers" MEANS JUST THAT...and no more...
....the numbers and dates corespond to the date and correct casting numbers that that vehicle came with
..NOT NECESSARILY THE ORIGINAL MOTOR
.......
.....If a car has all the original drivetrain..then they should state that...
.....
... I'm no

.....
...just common sense.....

mrrec · #6 11-05-2006, 05:19 PM

To many people, including most NCRS folks (they seem to almost encourage restamps), numbers matching means just that: the casting dates, stamped codes, etc. match the VIN and assy dates that are appropriate for the car VIN, assy date and/or docs - restamp/altered part or not.

I agree that some other term such as "ORIGINAL" numbers matching or "born with" is necessary to distinguish between the above definition and the real thing. I believe it is unfortunate that some use the term "numbers matching" to imply that the components are original to the car. Look how many fake Z28s and 435hp Vettes are numbers matching!!

I had a major Corvette parts seller tell me that he altered casting dates frequently and justified it by saying that since you can't tell, what's the problem? The problem is, it's deception. Plain and simple.

Dave

**Jeff H** · #7 11-05-2006, 05:44 PM

To me numbers matching means the original engine and trans with the partial VIN stamped from the factory. I've alwyas thought it to mean that for over 25 years. The Corvette guys kind of messed up that definition when they started restamping things for judging purposes. Since the engine and transmission are the only components with the actual VIN stamped in them, they are the main parts where the numbers match. Now if you have the POP then your rear end can also match the code and date from the POP but it still won't have the VIN stamped in it. Most of the deceiving ads out there use "number's matching" because they know people will think it's the original motor and trans. They should be using "number's correct", "factory correct", "date coded block" and also clearly state if the VIN does not match.

Rick H · #8 11-05-2006, 06:09 PM

Everyone keeps blaming the Corvette guys when in reality it happens in ALL makes and models. Think of the Mopar guys who buy a hulk of a Hemi without drivetrain but it has the fender tag. In a few months, VIOLA, instance numbers matching car. So to point fingers at one group is ridiculous. That's not the reason I asked the question.

I can agree with the VIN stamped block and tranny but when it comes to other parts such as heads, exhaust manifolds, intakes, carbs, etc.. those without a VIN stamped into it, what does numbers matching mean?

There are some who believe that every part must be born with original to be considered numbers matching. I totally disagree.

I find the subject interesting and would like to hear more but please do not point fingers.

Thanks
Rick H.

nuch_ss396 · #9 11-05-2006, 07:06 PM

If numbers matching means, or represents "born with...", why
do the CE blocks command so much attention and/or such high
prices. We've seen it over and over again.

I used to believe that numbers matching meant "born with" but
my feelings are different these days. When you find a nice
car to restore, but the original drivetrain is missing, you
are left with the proposition of assembling the correctly
dated, and if lucky - coded, components. Once done, you
have a numbers matching car. Just not the original components
the car came from the factory with.

Now the obvious observation: We all remember lots of
performance cars from our respective pasts and how many
of those cars survived with their original engines and/or
transmissions through the 1970's. Damn near every car I
remember had a transplanted block. Yet today, so many of
our cars are "numbers matching". I live in a glass house,
so I'm not throwing anything hard here.

I myself, in the quest to restore my grandfathers SS Camaro
back to original was forced to find numbers matching components,
but they are not, and can never be, the "born with" parts.

Is my car numbers matching? I believe it is. Is it original?
NO! How many actually are.

69hurstSC · #10 11-05-2006, 07:25 PM

this is not as complicated as it seems. #'s matching (IMO)is simply the drivetrain (engine, trans, rearend) that the particular vehicle rolled off the assembly line with. if you grenaded the motor and replaced it with a factory correct replacement block, you no longer have matching #'s. heads, water pumps, bumpers, mirrors, to me this is all accecptable to replace.
restamping = NON #'s matching
there are a few particular grey areas that must be discussed. lets take a 69 Yenko Novas for example. these cars were born as SS 396 cars and of course those were pulled for 427's. is this still a #'s matching car? another example would be the 69 Hurst Olds. they were converted to 455's. what is everyones opinion of a car that is still dealership new, but converted somehow before the 1st original buyer purchases that car?