Window Stickers

[Jonesy]

I think when it comes to offering "aged documents, that is wrong. Why not just repro them and call it that.

[NorCam]

What about aged tires (as in original molded bias ply) and aged dated spark plug wires, and marked belts, hoses, etc etc. Should we all just get new looking parts and put them on our vintage cars? No, we want everything to look period correct, old and like it belongs to the 50 or 60 year old car that its being paired with. So why would anyone who spends thousands restoring a car with all kinds of dated, restored or NOS parts want to display a bright crispy piece of paper with the car they just poured themselves into?

Again, the issue isn't with the paper, it's with the person who with malicious intent uses it to "deceive".

[Jonesy]

I was referring to how the window sticker reproducer gives the option of aging it and making it look old. I dont think you age you tires or age your spark plug wires to make them look old? age cracks in your belts?? Put dirt on your hoses. Not sure if I have seen that.
When you "age" a document, you are deceiving IMO. Why even offer that. Spring marks and fading or yellowing.

[Lee Stewart]

Originally Posted by NorCam

What about aged tires (as in original molded bias ply) and aged dated spark plug wires, and marked belts, hoses, etc etc. Should we all just get new looking parts and put them on our vintage cars? No, we want everything to look period correct, old and like it belongs to the 50 or 60 year old car that its being paired with. So why would anyone who spends thousands restoring a car with all kinds of dated, restored or NOS parts want to display a bright crispy piece of paper with the car they just poured themselves into?

Again, the issue isn't with the paper, it's with the person who with malicious intent uses it to "deceive".

Right - so one bad apple spoils the whole barrel. And why should the opportunity exist for that to happen? This isn't an occurrence that only happens once in a blue moon. It happens ALL THE TIME.

So by catering to the enthusiast we open the market up for the deceivers, thieves and the unscrupulous to ply their trades.

Those that sell these Window Stickers don't care. To them it's a business they can make money at. What happens after the sale has nothing to do with them as far as they are concerned.

Maybe the market should borrow the rule of law when it comes to bars serving booze to drunks who get in their cars and cause mayhem and loss. If a case of fraud comes up and it hinges on a fake aged Window Sticker let the creator of such document be held responsible . . . legally.

If there is no penalty, there is no incentive to stop.

It would also make those car with an original Window Sticker that much more valuable.

[ZLP955]

Originally Posted by NorCam

What about aged tires (as in original molded bias ply) and aged dated spark plug wires, and marked belts, hoses, etc etc. Should we all just get new looking parts and put them on our vintage cars? No, we want everything to look period correct, old and like it belongs to the 50 or 60 year old car that its being paired with. So why would anyone who spends thousands restoring a car with all kinds of dated, restored or NOS parts want to display a bright crispy piece of paper with the car they just poured themselves into?

I don't follow this argument. Sounds like you're referring to a car 'restored' to look like a survivor. Most restorations end up with the car looking, well, restored - like it did when new. Same as you're doing with the X77 car, no?
And the issue of not wanting bright crispy paperwork, if someone feels the need to re-create something the car lacks, why try and disguise it by faking age? Said it before, you either have the original, or you don't.

[fsc66]

I guess no matter what is written some people will just bunch everyone together and blame everyone in this business. So, on the other side of the coin.
I received an order for a very highly optioned Chevrolet model making this a pretty valuable car. Immediately I'm suspicious about the cars authenticity. So, as I always do first, I ask if this is an original or a cloned car and are all the options factory or add-ons. The response, “yes, original drive train”. So right away, evasiveness, a red flag. Then another response, “I believe all the options are factory but don’t have a build sheet”. Another flag. So, for me, research time, thank goodness for the internet (and the experts I am associated with for each Model) . I find the car on a few sites for sale and review all the pics. Trans not original first of all, so I write back and also ask for pic of trim tag. Response: "The trans is not on the cowl tag and I guess you are not as well versed as I thought you were, seems like your expertise is in other vehicles. OK, now insults, red flags just keep coming up. I try to explain professionally, that if the car is not original I cannot create any paperwork without watermarks. I also explain that I reviewed approx. 20 pictures of the car in the ads and numerous items checked off are not on the car. He tells me I should not go by the ads and how do I know the ads are correct. Then tells me he can’t send the trim tag pic because he’s at work. This goes on back and forth, him trying to convince me all is original and I of course stick to my guns. Then it’s time for threats: he writes he is a member of a club whose members are interested in my services but now he will advise them that unless they have original documents or other proof I will not move forward. I try to explain about bringing some integrity and ethics to a business that is riddled with negativity to not avail. Next response and stating that it will be the last: “I will be posting my experience with you, and as a courtesy will provide a copy to you prior to posting if you would like a copy, you have my word it will accurately reflect my experience here” I stated that I welcome the posting and thanked him for his time.
So, I sit and ponder after reading posts about how all of us are the same and wonder why I’m never going to make any real money doing this? Why should I care about ethics, integrity and this wonderful hobby when some people are just going to bunch me in with all those others that only car about making a buck and couldn’t care less about ethics and such………..

Paul

[Steve Shauger]

I want to start off by saying reproduction documentation should not be displayed or represented as original in the sale of a car period.

Reproduction documentation should never be aged period! I’d like to see some watermark or identification that it is a reproduction.

Saying reproduction documents are at fault for fraud is like saying a guns kill. It’s the dishonest people who represent their cars and documentation as real who are at fault and thieves.
There are many cases where cars are reproduced by original paperwork. I remember that 69 RG RS/Z that sold at an auction as original for 120ki+ and the only things original were the documentation and VIN tag and trim tag.

To me original paperwork is icing on the cake, but the vehicle itself is what matter…. Would you rather have a handful of original documentation (POP, window sticker, buildsheet, pre-inspection) or a true original car. Yes we’d all like both, but paperwork is worthless without a genuine car. The more I learn about cars the less important the paperwork become to me.

Whether you use Paul or his services ( winvoices) or not, he is very helpful and informative when researching dealers, options, and participates quite often on this board, while not soliciting his services but helping hobbyist… Just my opinion.

[Mr70]

I'll say it again,tear up your reproduction paper work before you sell a vehicle with such.
It will benefit the Hobby as a whole,as well as everyone involved.

[NorCam]

That's probably the best post I have seen in the thread yet.

Well thought and said,

[ZLP955]

Originally Posted by Mr70

I'll say it again,tear up your reproduction paper work before you sell a vehicle with such.
It will benefit the Hobby as a whole,as well as everyone involved.

Agreed that could help to avoid misunderstanding or misrepresentation, when you previously mentioned this.
But a lot of collectors hang onto their cars for years, and a significant number only re-enter the market through deceased estates or after long-term illness. Family members won't be thinking clearly about shredding reproduction car documents at such times.
Never creating fake paperwork in the first place removes all possible doubt. Surely that's best for the overall hobby?