Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro

[Verne_Frantz]

Tim,
I appreciate all the effort you and others have gone through to educate yourselves enough to detect restamps and other "cloning" methods. I can also appreciate the efforts by NCRS to educate more people so they can determine the real from the fake. Never the less, a Top Flight award is given to a car for its "appearance" of originality. Many people who are interested in purchasing a quailty Corvette are not as educated as you are. To them, the Top Flight award is their "proof" that they're getting a real car. I know that the NCRS has tried to make it clear that that is not what the award means, but unfortunately, the award does add a lot of value to a car, whether it's deserved or not.
As I said, the art of broaching and restamping would have been refined anyway over time, purely as a part of fraud and misrepresentation of high dollar cars, but the judging criteria of the NCRS (based on appearance of originality) literally opened the doors for the craft to be perfected. In plain language, what they're saying is that it's perfectly ok to have a "restoration motor" in your car, as long as we can't tell it's a fake. You get the same credit as a real one.
Personally, I not accept a restamped block as just another step in the restoration process. Afterall, the replacement engine has not been "restored"; its been altered to appear to be something it never was. As long as awards are bestowed to cars because they "appear" to be just like one Chevrolet might have built, the forgery business will flourish. The true history of those cars has been changed. Maybe its just me, but I'd rather see a car's history preserved rather than seeing a reproduction of something that might have been built.

Verne

[showyourauto]

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If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

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Carl, you outline the dilemma quite well. So what is the best choice? Adopt a popular judging standard as appropriate for the market too? I think we can all agree that people want to know that the car they are buying is genuine, how original it is, and where it's been before they got it (it's history).

Sellers are afraid of being punished (or motivated by greed) to be transparently candid about these points for fear the investment they made will evaporate.

Buyers attempt to place a limit to what they are willing to spend based on price guides, public auction results, and opinions of other enthusiasts.

Price guides DO NOT consider: Pedigree, correctness, originality, or the uniqueness of an individual car.

Public Actions (by in large) DO NOT give candid view of a cars originality, correctness, or a the history of a car, that is all on the prospective buyer. Price is based on an engineered environment to determine value, not the merits of a car- accept on rare occasion (like Body#1 Serial#2 '57 Chevy that hammered for $150k at BJ). That car earned because of her pedigree and provenance.

So the task is left to judges and enthusiasts groups to set the standard, each for the marque they hold interest in. Very often, these favor whatever restoration businesses happen to be active in the group, standards are set by those restoration practices rather than the factory that produced them in the first place.

Right now, a new buyer sophomoricly demands all original drive train, all original sheet metal, concours detail, and unimpeachable documentation for EVERY car as proof of authenticity. Otherwise, the car considered is worthless.

This all or nothing approach to valuing these cars is out of step with how they were used throughout their life, and fuels the temptation for owners to falsify their cars in order to protect their investment. In the end, it damages an otherwise perfectly genuine cars and undermines confidence in the market. This attitude is exemplified by the acceptance of "undetectable" restamps as co-equal with original engines in the Corvette hobby.

To make certain a car is genuine, for each make their needs to be a standard set, based on what can determine if a car is "real".

With Mopars, you have an engine code right in the VIN that shows if a car is a true HEMI or not. Is an NOM in a Hemi car endanger the car's pedigree? NOPE. Were most likely raced within an inch of their existence within the first 5 years of their life (damn skippy), should they be impugned because they don't have an original motor? NO WAY.

The same exercise needs to be done for every other marque for each major component of the car, drive train, chassis, bodywork, and paperwork. A minimum standard set to determine authenticity. That universal standard applied uniquely to each marque will be the thing that gives new buyer entering the hobby the confidence they need to spend their money. The other factors, such as originality and history is a matter of personal preference for determining value.

Overall, judging standards need to be in unity with what the market finds acceptable and reward what is preferable. Somehow, honoring what can be proved to be authentic and reward remarkably original while not diminishing what is less than perfect- because no car is.

[Hylton]

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If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

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Carl, you outline the dilemma quite well. So what is the best choice? Adopt a popular judging standard as appropriate for the market too?

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F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[showyourauto]

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F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

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Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose!

[Hylton]

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F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

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Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose!

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Time to get this hobby back into the hands of those that started it.

[StealthBird]

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F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

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You'd make a great commentator at Barrett-Jackson.

[Hylton]

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F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

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You'd make a great commentator at Barrett-Jackson.

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Actually, the only people who would appreciate my comments if I were, would be you guys because I would have you all in stitches picking the cars apart while interviewing the sellers.

[PeteLeathersac]

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F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

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Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose!

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Time to get this hobby back into the hands of those that started it.

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Amen brother Hylton!.
Now tell us what you really think!.


~ Pete

[COPO 70 RS/Z28]

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F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

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Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose!

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I'm not in the car business. Never have been, never will be, the cars I own I will most likely never make a buck off of. I have loved cars since before I was able to drive. I stepped out of the "hobby" for a number of years because of financial issues.

I consider myself somewhat of a novice in the whole "numbers" thing, so my comments comes from the viewpoint of a plebe in this game the way it's played now. I understand that there are people here who do live in the car biz and those who don't, I don't have an ax to grind with anyone here.

That being said, I do have an interest in seeing the hobby preserved and prosper, why, because I need sources, services, parts..... and all those resources that allow me to enjoy my cars, one of the only hobbies that I have now.Some things I can do myself and feel very comfortable in the results, some things I cant, or do I have the capital to tool-up,equip for, or would it make sense to for the amount of use I would give them. So I am somewhat tied to that "market" such that if the market dies, so do a lot of the services and sources that "I" need for my enjoyment.

As a novice I'm sure my prospective is very different that most people here. That's all I'm offering is a view of how I feel when I look at what is going on and I see a situation that is going to keep people from coming aboard.

Maybe I'm completely missing the boat. But from my perspective the deal gets scarier every day.

.02

[Hylton]

The market of buying and selling these cars is different than the parts market. People will always be rebuilding these cars so the demand for parts will always be there. I don't know any repro part that no longer exists other than parts which have been replaced by better and more correct pieces.

There will always be a market for the real cars. Most of them get sold by word of mouth.