Barrett Jackson Las Vegas

[chevelleheart]

Too Funny Keith !!!! This turned into quite a good read !

[704EVER]

It's getting to be an even better read over on Team Camaro!!

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
It's getting to be an even better read over on Team Camaro!!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.105

.....and now it is clear that no one is safe from a rebody or restamp. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Keith Tedford]

The picture of the firewall VIN stamp section, that was supposedly sold, showed a piece that wasn't all that big. If you strip the paint around the heater box area, I'm pretty sure you will see the different coloration of the metal where the welding was done....if it was done. There are lots of body men that can make the weld so smooth that it is invisible with the paint on. Sounds like all these fancy documents of authenticity that have been sold aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Verified history and personal inspection are really the only things that count. Even then can you be sure? Sad what greed does. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Bad Brad]

They never were safe from a rebody or restamp. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif And Jerry just had a professional write up on that site and professionaly dodge that bullit.
The whole thing smells like rotten fish.

[sYc]

Something to keep in mind, when looking at an appraisal/inspection report, make note of who requested it, seller or buyer. Such as with this car, a seller can dictate what is, and is not, inspected/noted. Most times a buyer will want a much more thorough exam then the seller.

[carguy]

------------------------------------------------------------

From Camaro research group thread: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?P...32.msg29172#new (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=548cef48f878c19ffeeb6a39551632 0d&topic=4432.msg29172#new)
--------------------
I am sure this has been a great learning experience for all of us. Like many others, but probably none of you, when I read a description for a car in the past and it said that the car was certified and documented by Jerry M. dumb me assumed this meant that the drive train was original and there were no questions about the trim tag. It never dawned on me that he was certifying anything else or perhaps nothing at all other than he made a report on the car. It was certainly my conclusion as well as many of my experienced car friends that read the description on the green Z that a certification meant a certification when we were in Vegas for the auction. My thought was his certification was similar to the good housekeeping seal. Similar thoughts for mopars documented and inspected by Galen.

Thanks to this thread I have learned a very valuable lesson that cost me nothing. This is that a certification apparently only means that Jerry has inspected the car. Nothing more. The thread has taught me a great lesson to dig deeper and really pay attention to the report. Same goes for Galen or any other expert.

It seems to me though that when an expert inspects a car and it meets a certain criteria it only then has the right to be called certified or? If it is does not meet that criteria it should not be allowed to be called certified or ? To me that criteria should at a minimum include requirements for an original driveline which includes the block plus verification of the authenticity of the trim tag. It would be really neat if the leading experts in the industry that provide these services would take from this experience the need to create a standard explanation for what they have found that is clearly understood within the hobby.

It is similar to the claim from some Pontiac owners that their car is PHS Documented. The un-initiated would think the car was restored to the PHS specs. However, when one digs deeper through the PHS report it is not at all unusual to find that the car has been painted a different color than what it was born with, options such as A/C, Special Hurst packages, power steering, etc. has been added by the restorer. It is also kind of scary to see a yellow high hi-lighter in the seller’s pocket.

Same goes for the matching numbers claim. What exactly is matching numbers? Many of us are afraid to call even an original survivor car matching numbers for fear someone will find some obscure component that is not correct such as a wiper blade, cigarette lighter, etc. that could technically unwind a sale. Yet we continue to see re-stamped cars called matching numbers.

In the end I realize it is Buyer Beware. However, if Certifications or whatever you want to call them are to mean anything I really feel they should be based on solid criteria. Otherwise, why would anyone want to pay for a "certification" especially in light of what we have learned here? When someone that paid the expert for his services misuses the word certified or ? then they should be called out.

The car hobby is my passion. I really enjoy seeing others have that same passion. However, when one gets sucked in on some of the shady descriptions seen today and then finds out the truth it sucks the passion out of the most fervent hobbyist. With this forum and others plus some help from our experts perhaps we might be able to stop some of this abuse.

Just my 2 cents.

[Keith Tedford]

I don't know for a fact, but I would think that the PHS information comes from the shipping list microfilm as does the GM of Canada info. If a person had the time, it would be interesting to follow the paper trail and talk to people to find out about some of these cars. A friend, after selling his 1968 SD 396 Beaumont in 1969, decided to track it down 35 years later. Turned out the last owner lived less than 20 miles from where he lived. Over the years the car had gone to western Canada and back. Unfortunately the car had been parted out. End of story for this one, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Others have had more success. Fortunately. http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2151860150101686729nuwJVV

[mockingbird812]

Keith,

I never tire of gazing at the original photos of your awesome CS COPO Chevelle. Wow! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Shevelle]

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously no one should condemn Jerry M. without his report being displayed..
He's not a stupid man and his concerns for this specific car also disclaimer for circumstances such as this on any car he inspects is most likey included in his report?.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jerry's Report (http://independentcustoms.com/contents01.htm)

.

[Zedder]

Doesn't look like there are any disclaimers in this report?

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
It didn't fool the person who inspected it. No one would have bought that car for 40K if they had seen all 3 pages of the report.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the report says it's estimated value is 100k-120k. I see alot of minor restoration details noted, finishes/etc. but nothing in the report would indicate to me that the car itself was ever suspect...the first page seems to clarify that. I could see how a non-Camaro expert/hobbiest/collector could look at this report and feel confident he was buying a good restored car with some minor details that needed attention.

[Seattle Sam]

I don't see any opinion in the report as to whether any of the components are original to the car. Interesting to note that the car apparently had the wrong transmission in it according to the report, even though it was stamped correctly. Also that the car had the wrong leaf springs in it, an odd occurrence I would think for a car containing its complete and original drive train.

[Racefan]

Excuse me as I move past the elephant in the room but, how does it have the correct numbers matching drive train when, as I understand it the progression was:

1) "too far gone" hulk with only value being the items in #2 and seemingly destroyed by accounts
2) tags, paperwork and one hidden VIN on eBay
3) tags, paperwork and one hidden VIN on hulk on eBay (maybe original hulk)
4) correct, certified, numbers matching car at restorer's shop
5) sold at BJ as #4 to a highly respected, knowlegable collector

Next question- Could the pad stamping and brooch marks have been so good that Jerry M didn't pick them up for his report?

[704EVER]

Some people just flat out refuse too see the elephant in the room!!! That's obvious to me after reading all the threads here, CRG and Team Camaro. You have an obvious set of tags and paperwork sold on Ebay certified by "The Camaro" expert, who should have known better, if that's his business!! Now what comes into play here, is all the appraisals and certifications that a lot of people have paid dearly for. Are these certifications worth the paper they are written on? I'm sure there are many cars that are worthy of the certification, but which ones are they? Some refuse to believe the obvious and others just need to do their own research on any future purchase. I for one wouldn't spend 6 figures on this signature!

[fastessfreddy]

loook on the first page of jerry mc niesh report!

it say\'s

\"APPRAISAL CERTIFICATE OF AUTHENTICITY\"




I agree! how can anybody deny the car is a fake!
anybody seeing that Mc Niesh report would without any doubt think the car is real. i personally think he\\\\\\\'s now POSSIBLY liable since i dont see any disclaimers!
any he states estimated value at 100k-120k if i were the buyer such as pratt i would be highly upset at this report!

its written in favor of the car being real!

wrong tranny? why because it has a drain plug? that could have been installed,it was done back in the day.or was it a wrong casting number? omg! if it was the wrong casting number and had the correct vin stamped.this would have been a red flag any 1st grader with the knowlege would see!

I AGREE! A NUMBERS MATCHING WHITE ELEPHANT WITH A FULL CERTIFICATION FROM AN EXPERT!

NOT GOOD!

how about other cars certified by the experts? how many are real?

[COPO 70 RS/Z28]

Ya know im just a novice when it comes to things like this. I have been following this since the beginning and it just seems strange to me that a guy with that kind of knowledge.............???????????????????????????? ??

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Bad Brad]

Sounds like Jerrys Kids are gunna be very upset when their 3 page reports are going to be worthless or questionable?

[Charley Lillard]

Posted by Jerry on CRG...

The final report states that the car has a restoration drive train!! I have photos of the stampings to show this clearly. Not even close to correct original factory stampings. The final report also states that the car showed up on Ebay Oct 2007 as a shell. What has been posted on the Net is a rough draft report that was sent to K. Waters by me during the first week of June so he would have time to finish the car AND have time to correct the issues that I flagged incorrect for the Camaro Nationals, June 20-22, 2008. The final report was mailed out to K. Waters during the later part of June. That has not been posted. It will be posted shortly. The car was inspected on June 1, 2008.

Jerry

Another note in the report:
Special Note: Gary Fitzgibbon owned car, showed up again on ebay 10/07, was in PA. Was still a shell, but it was unclear if it was the original one or not.

[Shevelle]

The three page report that is posted on the internet which is being referred to as a "rough draft", looks exactly like the three page reports that I received from him on two cars that he inspected for me. I certainly didn't pay for rough drafts and was never given anything different. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[Jerry@CHP]

Jacquie,

I had to do a flight change when I came to OK because Glenn was not available when I originally booked the trip so I rebooked the trip. It cost me an extra $150 and Glenn was suppose to send the balance owed but never did. That is why I never sent the final reports to you.

Jerry

[Charley Lillard]

Ha !!!

[quick-bowtie]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like Jerrys Kids are gunna be very upset when their 3 page reports are going to be worthless or questionable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Insted of everyone blaming Jerry why not find the dick head who welded those numbers in the car and bash him????

Im pretty sure those reports won't be worthless most guys know Jerry's reputation and value it.. That comment was pretty immature if you ask me.

[704EVER]

I know Jaquie pretty well and if this EXPERT is crying over a 150.00 then something is just not right!!!!! And maybe that's why he's in the mess he's in!!!!

[704EVER]

That reputation is down the drain! This hobby is all about honesty and integrity!!!!! Sorry, I was responding to Bowtie

[Charley Lillard]

So someone stiffs you for 150.00 and you are still going to send them the goods ? LOL.... yeah right.

[Jerry@CHP]

704ever,

I am not in any mess. And if you have a problem with me or what I do for a living, I am very easy to find. Come and see me at the Camaro Nats and we can talk face to face. I am there every year. Will that work for you? Lets hear about all of your accomplishments??

Jerry

[firstgenaddict]

Jerry provides a valuable service which is needed and wanted, there are too many people who will twist what has been said or written about a certain vehicle to their benefit than we can count. If this financial crisis does us the service of removing a bunch of non automotive speculators, who have profit as the only motive, from our hobby it will have done us a HUGE service.
You can continue to shoot the messengers but that isn't going to stop the problems...
Anytime there is money to be made you will find crooks. Look at Washington!

[Charley Lillard]

The problem 704ever is you trashing Jerry without even seeing the report. He says there is a final report but you choose to ignore that and continue to trash him. Why is that ? Do you have a prior grudge ?

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
So someone stiffs you for 150.00 and you are still going to send them the goods ? LOL.... yeah right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know Charley, 150. has never changed my friend ships. Jacquie and her husband roll 6 figure cars on a yearly basis, as you probably do yourself. I wouldn't sweat a 150. from them, why should a National expert???

[704EVER]

The crooks aren't only in Washington, all you need to do is look just a little closer to the MD. area!!

[Jerry@CHP]

Charley,

How about if the trim tag was swithed on a car?? Would that make a difference for the balance......LOL. Yep, another trim tag job!

Jerry

[Charley Lillard]

704ever. Jerry doesn't roll 6 figure cars annually.He travels all over the country doing reports for fees. They are paying customers. He is supposed to let it go ? 150.00 has different meanings to all of us. Just because Jacquie and her husband move high dollar cars, it doesn't mean they don't owe the 150.00. Simply amazing.

[704EVER]

Your kidding me, right???

[quick-bowtie]

Some people just dont get it?? Do you think bashing Jerry is going to help this hobby? Are there honestly people that believe he is corrupt of behind this?? GIVE ME A BREAK! All it boils down to is someone passing the buck and blaming someone else and a bunch of people adding fuel to the fire.

All your doing is forcing another knowledgeable guy that is available to the public to think twice about what he does or offers to collectors. I for one am no expert so I do value his knowledge, granted I research every car I own before I buy it too but its always good to have and experts advise when needed be it Jerry, Galen, Ed, or who ever..

Unless the Expert is the person who RESTORED the car, take the report for what it is there professional opinion.

It kind of reminds me of when the US went after Sadam Huesainn insted of Bin Laden.. (Gotta go after someone) look where that got us! Why not use the effort to track dont the guy who welded those number in???

[Jerry@CHP]

Michael, Michael, Michael,

Why can't we all get along. You are one angry man or should I say little boy? Call me and we'll talk about it. Did you take any english classes in school??? It's You're kidding me.....not your. Sorry....

Jerry

[Charley Lillard]

No I'm not kidding. 150.00 is small enough that if someone stiffs you it is too much bother to chase someone very hard over it. It is much easier to withhold the product until paid in full. It happens everywhere in business and is a good practice because there are a ton of guys that rely on it being too much work to chase them. I'm not inferring that Jacquie and he husband are in that bunch but Jerry has no way of knowing who will pay and who won't.

[Stefano]

No, he's not "kidding".

[Shevelle]

Jerry,

That is absolutely not true and you know it. We were not the ones that canceled an appointment, it was you and you cancelled more than once. We were always available for you. Furthermore, you told us that you had to be paid in full before you would book a flight and that's what we did. We sent you exactly the fee you requested well before you came to Oklahoma. You never said anything to either of us indicating that we owed you more money. You know full well that when I found an error on one of my reports several months later and contacted you about it, that was the first I ever heard about us oweing you additional money because you changed your flight. I told you then that we paid what you had quoted us, that we did not cause you to change your flight, but that if you felt that we owed you additional money I would pay. You did not give me an amount because you said you were busy and didn't know how much. You said you would get back with me and you never did. I contacted you three more times over the next couple of months asking you to please let me know how much I needed to send so I could get my report corrected. You told me you were busy and didn't have the time and would let me know later. You never did let me know and you never did correct my report. Here, today, on this bulletin board, is the first time I have seen the amount of $150 ever mentioned by you.

I am sorry that this is being brought up on a public board, but to be accused of not paying my bills when that is absolutely not true is unacceptable. The truth, Jerry, is that you were paid exactly what you stated your fee was before you ever left home, you did not book a flight until you received that payment, we did not cancel any appointment, and I was never told that we owed you any additional charges until I contacted you months later and even then I was not told how much. I was also never told that the reports I received were anything other than what I beleived to be official, final reports...not rough drafts.

What I was saying in my original post, was that the reports on the internet are exactly the same reports I received and I did not pay for "rough drafts". We paid you what you asked to fly you to Oklahoma to inspect and authenticate our cars and we believed that what we were receiving from you was nothing less than official Jerry MacNeish reports.

[Jerry@CHP]

Thank you Charley,

Hope to see you at SEMA next week. Leaving early in the AM and going to the Las Vegas Nationals this weekend for the big NHRA event.

Jerry

[704EVER]

Why can't we all get along should be followed by a question mark Jerry. As far as English classes go, I'm sure I've taken more than you have. I'm sorry I missed the the proper ' on you're. Sooner or later most people will find out what you are all about!

[Jerry@CHP]

Jacquie

That is not totally true. I dealt with Glenn and told him about the extra fees. I was told that the check would be sent to me for the balance. It never arrived. When I booked the trip, Glenn told me that the date would not work as he was out of town that week. That is why I switched the flights, thus adding an extra charge to the trip.

Glenn also told me not to say anything to the other gentleman in OK City about how the fees were broken down for the trip. As I remember, Glenn paid me and charged the other guy a larger percentage for my trip. I will have to look through my records to know all details.

When you contacted me, it was about a color mistake on the 67 Camaro. That is when I responded that a balance was due.

Jerry

[704EVER]

Typical Scumbag!! For a lousy 150.00!! You must really need it!!!

[Jerry@CHP]

Michael,

They already have found out. That is why 2008 will be our most successful year ever!

Jerry

[Shevelle]

So Charley, you know absolutely nothing about this or me and you are stepping out saying I stiffed someone? Really Charley, how do you know that? Because Jerry said so? I don't stiff anyone, Never have! I pay my bills...all of them...on time. I resent being presented as someone who does any less.

[Jerry@CHP]

Michael,

I wonder if you would say these nice wonderful things to my face......or do you just make a habbit of hiding behind a keyboard?

Jerry

[RamAirDave]

The evidence revealed shows the car to be a re-body. Who knew what, and when, I can't say for sure. I also can't say for sure who was fraudelent. Just that I can deduct my own opinion.

[quick-bowtie]

704EVER lets hear you story?? You definately have a grudge so how did Jerry screw you?? I cant believe anyone would keep this up and make comments like that unless something was behind it.

Also Im not referring to the Jacquie a post Ive meet both of them and actually sold them a car a couple of years ago and they're both real nice people.. but you referring to the fact that you would let someone slide on 150 dollars??

Question can I borrow $150?? as far as payment back you'll let it slide right? I do have quite a few 6 figure cars..

I will leave this post alone now and maybe put alittle effort forth to see if we can dig the name up of the builder. Maybe you can do the same after all this post wouldnt be happening if the REAL CROOK didnt weld those numbers in right?

P.S. No need to correct my spelling or engish I only have a 10 grade education.

[Xplantdad]

I am thinking that this BS has gone on long enough...

We are adults here...so lets act like them now... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I know Charley...and I know Jacquie...and what I do know is that they are both fine people.

The majority of the stuff said here could have been taken to PM's or...maybe even not even been said at all.

Why doesn't everyone give it a rest for the night...and take a deep breath? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[bertfam]

Please read my update from Jerry on the CRG WEB SITE (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.0;all).

Ed

[704EVER]

You don't really need to hear my story, Jerry knows what it is. And I'll leave it at that, I'm over it, but I don't like seeing it happen to other people. Some time soon this BS needs to STOP!! I'm here for the love of the hobby and the cars, not to get robbed and it hasn't only been me, there have been others. Take this for what it's worth, first time customers in Md. don't do very well.

[Charley Lillard]

Sorry Jacquie. It wasn't meant for you specifically . It was meant in a context to 704ever. He seems to think that 150.00 should be ignored because it isn't alot of money and my statement was meant as a example.

[Shevelle]

[ QUOTE ]
Jacquie

That is not totally true. I dealt with Glenn and told him about the extra fees. I was told that the check would be sent to me for the balance. It never arrived. When I booked the trip, Glenn told me that the date would not work as he was out of town that week. That is why I switched the flights, thus adding an extra charge to the trip.

Glenn also told me not to say anything to the other gentleman in OK City about how the fees were broken down for the trip. As I remember, Glenn paid me and charged the other guy a larger percentage for my trip. I will have to look through my records to know all details.

When you contacted me, it was about a color mistake on the 67 Camaro. That is when I responded that a balance was due.

Jerry

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Jerry, please do look through your records. This will be the 3rd time you will have told me you will do that. Your recollection of events does not agree with mine nor Glenns. I vividly remember that you cancelled your appointment with us more than once, it was not us that cancelled. If there were additional charges for flight changes it was not because of us and we shouldn't have been charged. I offered to go ahead a pay you, even though I knew it was not right. Because the report was wrong and I wanted a correct one. It's very sad Jerry, that you are trying to make it look like I am someone that goes around "stiffing" people. Just your saying that was obviously all it took to convince Charley as well as some others. Surely you are not denying that I asked you to please let me know how much to send you more than once and that you never did let me know??

[Shevelle]

[ QUOTE ]
I am thinking that this BS has gone on long enough...

We are adults here...so lets act like them now... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I know Charley...and I know Jacquie...and what I do know is that they are both fine people.

The majority of the stuff said here could have been taken to PM's or...maybe even not even been said at all.

Why doesn't everyone give it a rest for the night...and take a deep breath? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'm done. Thanks Bruce....I needed that! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

[firstgenaddict]

I am not accusing anyone of anything... just giving my perspective on the money thing.
I run a large business where $150 is about 1% of an avg invoice. If someone stiffs me for $150 I will ask them about it everytime they call... it's not the damn money it's the principal. I prefer not to do business with someone I can't trust to pay their bills.

[Xplantdad]

I will say that Jacquie has no problem paying people...even when they flat out refuse to take payment ( looked at a car for her out here and wanted no money)...as it's just cool to do it for a friend...she still insisted http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif and told me she'd be mad at me.

I've already had Annie hit me because I "fibbed" to her and Rick...I didn't need Jacquie's wrath as well...LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I am done as well...other than to say...Andy, I will be practicing on the go cart track (eventually) so you better watch out http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Novadiecast]

As an outsider from all of this let me get this right.

1)Jerry got the color wrong on a car for Jacquie!!

2)Jerry got the BJ car wrong!!!!

3)Jerry got something wrong for 704EVER!!!

Again as an outsider to all involved, who would hire such a "service" to form an opinion about a car. What makes Jerry the head master on a camaro anyway. I am not sure. I mean what "makes" him someone who is supposed to be an authority on camaros any differant than someone else that is very knowledgable about camaros. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif I am not trying to ruffle any feathers, I am just trying to understand and learn. No offense is meant or dirrected at anyone.

[68 Vert]

I have a question, are the draft and final reports noted as such (draft only, final report)?

Mike

[Charley Lillard]

704ever..... You apparently are not over whatever pissed you off about Jerry in some past life. You appear to have used this site and issue as a podium for some past grudge. If you are going to slam someone, please stick to facts. I'm trying to moderate here and you come bashing based on something we know nothing about. You have managed to make yourself the focus of the thread and the person I am getting complaints about. Don't make me use my vast amounts of Grand Yenko.net Poohbah power to stifle you on this site.

I'm not siding with Jerry. I am just trying to make sense of this mess and not let anyone get trashed over something we know nothing about.

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question, are the draft and final reports noted as such (draft only, final report)?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I was also wondering. If the car owner had a "draft" with no indication of such why would they bother paying for a "final" or even showing it if the draft looked fine and gave a more favorable description ( no mention of rebody, restamp or resto drive train)?

The documents shown online as the three page report looked very official and matter of fact. They gave no indication of pending verification or the ever present underwriters reveiw.
I respect Jerry since he has said that it is true that there is no way to tell if the hidden vins were changed or if the car is a rebody when the metal work is perfect.

This seems to be just another lesson for us all. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Stick a fork in it.

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
I respect Jerry since he has said that it is true that there is no way to tell if the hidden vins were changed or if the car is a rebody when the metal work is perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not true. I believe 90% of the rebodies out there can be determined provided you are able to remove interior parts and examin other dated chassis components.

You cannot remove a trim tag and put it back without visible signs that it had been off the car at one time.
Study trim tag rivets from underneath the dash instead of the engine bay side and you'll see what I am talking about http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif.

[southernfriedcj]

Wow, what drama!

[fastessfreddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have a question, are the draft and final reports noted as such (draft only, final report)?

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what I was also wondering. If the car owner had a \"draft\" with no indication of such why would they bother paying for a \"final\" or even showing it if the draft looked fine and gave a more favorable description ( no mention of rebody, restamp or resto drive train)?

The documents shown online as the three page report looked very official and matter of fact. They gave no indication of pending verification or the ever present underwriters reveiw.
.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cant agree any further.besides didnt jerry himself say it was only a three page report?
now is it four?if true jerry should have sent the fourth page only with disclosure of it being a restoration drivetrain.and holding the first three that says official authentication.

you know,while thinking about this i think the whole think stinks of fraud all around.a separate piece of paper saying restamp and nothing on the first three pages look like fraud to me.

kind of makes you wonder.

[fastessfreddy]

does jerry authenticate other cars as well?like COPO cars and other model checvy\'s or just camaro\'s??i\'m sorry but this really opens up everybodies eyes to \"real\"cars anymore.

[Jeff H]

I don't think there is any extra page, it was a finalized version with the details added about the drivetrain and the tags for sale on Ebay. I think a lot of people read the report and translate it into what they want it to say. If you don't understand comments on it, you should talk to CHP for clarification. I don't understand why so many people are attacking Jerry when he flagged the car appropriately with his final report. The seller is the one who decided to deceive people by showing the preliminary report with the list of incorrect items.

[TDW]

fastess...you must have read something different than what is posted on the CRG site. The first page, last line, clearly states "restoration drive train". It has 3 pages. I don't see anywhere that says there is a 4th page. Where is that info at?

[fastessfreddy]

[ QUOTE ]
fastess...you must have read something different than what is posted on the CRG site. The first page, last line, clearly states \"restoration drive train\". It has 3 pages. I don\'t see anywhere that says there is a 4th page. Where is that info at?

[/ QUOTE ]

ok i will go bACK AND READ THE REPORT AGAIN.this is where i saw it.i still dont see reatoration drivetrain on it.did KW edit this report?


see it below?

http://www.freeproxyserver.net/index.php?view=http%3A%2F%2Findependentcustoms.com %2Fcontents01.htm


http://www.freeproxyserver.net/index.php...eish_Page_1.pdf (http://www.freeproxyserver.net/index.php?view=http%3A%2F%2Findependentcustoms.com %2Fimages%2Fmisc%2Fjerry%2520macneish_Page_1.pdf)

http://www.freeproxyserver.net/index.php...eish_Page_2.pdf (http://www.freeproxyserver.net/index.php?view=http%3A%2F%2Findependentcustoms.com %2Fimages%2Fmisc%2Fjerry%2520macneish_Page_2.pdf)

http://www.freeproxyserver.net/index.php...eish_Page_3.pdf (http://www.freeproxyserver.net/index.php?view=http%3A%2F%2Findependentcustoms.com %2Fimages%2Fmisc%2Fjerry%2520macneish_Page_3.pdf)

[Jeff H]

That's the preliminary report and not the final report. Jerry posted the final report over at CRG.

Go to page 11 of the thread and it's in the top post, posted as an attachment.

CRG discussion (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.150)

[fastessfreddy]

what is wrong with me? all i can see is text.i dont see a pic,scan or link to any final report?all i can pull up is the links i posted above.


can somebody post a picture here of the final report?or a link? i dont see it!

[Bill Pritchard]

[ QUOTE ]
what is wrong with me? all i can see is text.i dont see a pic,scan or link to any final report?all i can pull up is the links i posted above.
can somebody post a picture here of the final report?or a link? i dont see it!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not alone....I don't see any attachments, links, or pictures http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Xplantdad]

You have to log in to see the pictures... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[njsteve]

The link button is tiny and easy to miss. It is labled "9N509335 Cert.pdf" and it's right after the last sentence in the post that says:
"This post includes the FINAL report (attached) while my next post will include the pictures.
Ed"

See it now?

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.150

[Xplantdad]

If you are not signed up for the forum and logged in...you won't see it... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[chevelleheart]

Can sombody cut and paste it here ? It would be great to see. Thx

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what is wrong with me? all i can see is text.i dont see a pic,scan or link to any final report?all i can pull up is the links i posted above.
can somebody post a picture here of the final report?or a link? i dont see it!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not alone....I don't see any attachments, links, or pictures http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

the "final" report is identical to the "draft" report with the exception of the addition on the bottom of the first page in regards to "resto drive train" and third page center "car was owned by ...and on ebay..."

[Gary L]

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4432.0;attach=3534

Chevelle, here is the link.

[Shevelle]

[ QUOTE ]
Charley,

How about if the trim tag was swithed on a car?? Would that make a difference for the balance......LOL. Yep, another trim tag job!

Jerry

[/ QUOTE ]

When I initially read this comment, I thought it was directed at 70Forever, whose business I know nothing about. But it has been brought to my attention by several others that this comment was instead, directed at me. To you Charley, and to Bruce, I am sorry, but I simply can not and will not stand idley by as my name, as well as Glenns, gets trashed and dragged through the muck in an attempt to hide facts. I am posting all three of the reports done for myself and Glenn. All three clearly state "trim tag certified as real and authentic". These are the only three cars of ours that you, Mr. MacNeish, have ever looked at. So do tell, what exactly is it you mean when you say "another trim tag job"? I know what people reading this thread THINK you mean by it...and that, sadly, is apparently your intention.

MacNeish Reports (http://www.cantweight.net/jmreports.html)

[Charley Lillard]

I wasn't sure what he meant. Is that what he meant ?

[Shevelle]

From the responses I have been getting, whatever he meant people are sure taking it that he meant it towards me and my car(s). Whatever he meant, I certainly don't like the accusation.

[Xplantdad]

CHP's response is right after 70's post....but it's really hard to tell who he's talking about...as he was responding to a few different people.

Jacquie has some really cool cars...and like I said before is a very upstanding person...and a car girl to boot http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Jacquie, I for one, am looking forward to meeting up with you in Scottsdale. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[bowtie3168]

To 70whatever, I am so sick and tired of "johnny come latelys" who like to bring a personal agenda to the site. Has that vehicle been run down a strip in the last twenty years? Do us all a favor, head to A1A and head east.

[Shevelle]

Thank you for your kind words, Bruce. Always the peace-keeper, always one to make the best of a bad situation, you are truly one of a kind. I am honored to be your friend as I'm sure everyone here and everyone that knows you is. You are the one who encouraged me to sign up here at SYC. I have enjoyed it and the the friends I have made here. I hope I haven't disappointed you too much by getting off track, that was never my intention. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Glenn and I are looking forward to getting together with you in Scottsdale too! We aren't taking any cars this time, so no Work...we are ready to have some FUN!!!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Actually we all hate Bruce.

[Shevelle]

Hey! I always wondered what this little guy was for... Now I know! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Xplantdad]

And then there's this sign... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[CC Rider]

[ QUOTE ]
And then there's this sign... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And this one too. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BruceRocks.gif

[COPO 70 RS/Z28]

How do you make Bruce's sign go up and down?????????????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[CC Rider]

Maybe he hasn't earned the right to go up and down yet. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[COPO 70 RS/Z28]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[southernfriedcj]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you make Bruce's sign go up and down?????????????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif
A couple dozen funny comments come mind but I'll jut keep my piehole shut.

[P.J.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why I am following this perhaps its like stopping to look at an auto accident on the side of the road?

Its my understanding the original shell absent the identity tags was sold and the identity tags with the paperwork was sold at another time??? Then we are presuming they were never reunited?????????

Anyway, NJSteve I think despite the boilerplate consignment K the buyer is a buyer in good faith and if his funds have not been disbursed BJ can and should withhold payment to the seller pending the cloud being removed from the title? In this case I think the cloud can be removed by removing a fender and checking for the hidden heaterbox VIN? That would be best answered by a Camaro expert? The way I read the K, BJ doesn't waive liability for selling a car with an illegally transferred VIN once they are put on notice. Absent notice I think they have no liability? In this case it appears BJ is on notice the car may have the VIN and identity of another car and I think if I was advising them I would advise them to withhold the funds and put the funds in escrow. I would also advise them to just go out and pull the fender while this is removal is being videotaped and look for the VIN. The NHP would also do it while the car is still here. If no VIN or wrong VIN I would tell the seller to pick up his car and give the buyer his money back. It doesn't matter whether the seller was a good faith seller in due course he is stuck with the car. I know BJ doesn't pay their sellers for at least a month so the funds should still be there. If the car has been shipped it needs to come back to Vegas and NHP can investigate its identity.
What do you think?


[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. I totally forgot about the delay in payment that the auction houses have. This is the exact reason it's there (and to collect that month's worth of interest on the money http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif).

Now that the auction house and the seller/buyer are all on notice of this issue, I bet that at least the NHP and the NICB will be there for an inspection. The NICB has a lot of experienced investigators that specialize in examining VIN swaps for chop shop cases. They have a lot of "vintage" car guys that know their vintage cars, too.

BTW, I mentioned this idea on the Camaro site:

This would be a great opportunity for someone to establish a "pre-certification" process that documents a car's body/drivetrain as "born-with" by establishing baseline conditions before any work is done on it, as well as during and after the restoration.

It's kind of like getting permits for building a house...you get the foundation OK'd then the electrical checked off, then the plumbing, etc., until the final certificate of occupancy is granted. You don't just build the house and get the paperwork afterwards to prove you did it correctly.

For example: you find that proverbial semi-rusty, barn-find, black and gold ZL-1 and that's when you have someone come out and photograph/document every square inch of it including all the confidential VIN locations. Then when it's in the midst of the metal work, he comes back again to check it off, and then after paint you get a certificate of originality (or occupancy if you aren't going to drive the darn thing http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif).

It's kind of like what we do here by photgraphically documenting our never-ending restoration stories. You are there to see every step from the find to the finish with no mysterious missing chapters.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Well said. A picture is worth a thousand words.The hidden numbers before its stripped then a pic of the same vin
in bare metal. Oh yes in clear macro pictures.Surely if you are restoring a prized valuable car you would proudly display the hidden vins.Unless you are trying to fool someone.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
PJ

[704EVER]

[ QUOTE ]
To 70whatever, I am so sick and tired of "johnny come latelys" who like to bring a personal agenda to the site. Has that vehicle been run down a strip in the last twenty years? Do us all a favor, head to A1A and head east.

[/ QUOTE ]

Congradulations, you've been appointed a spokesman for the whole board? Hats off to you! And yes, I took your advice and headed east from A1A, the beach was beautiful!! As far as the vehicle goes, mine pretty much stays in the garage/trailer, if you really need to know. Have a great night!

[bowtie3168]

When this board first began it was a group of enthusiasts who used it as a form of communication to help one another with restorations, parts and information, there was a camaraderie and a respect that was extended among members of the club. We speak to each other with respect if you take a look at the date of when I joined and then take a look at when you joined you will see a long time difference. The comment that I made about when you ran your car last has to do with our club's philosophy, we run them. As to your personal attack I know that I am not alone in the way I feel, Where I come from you earn your "stripes" before running your mouth. I do not appreciate the fact that you are trying to smear the good name of a person who has contributed so much to our hobby. Jerry has forgotten more than you will ever know. Thanks for bringing all the things that we hate about other boards to this board, and the reccomendation about A1A has to do with where you should drive after "the beautiful beach". Andrew Hinckley