Barrett Jackson Las Vegas [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

Les Quam

10-19-2008, 08:17 AM

I just got back from the auction and the quality of the cars overall in general was really below average. Some of the cars mentioned as bargains on this thread upon closer personal examination were market correct even for a few years ago. They simply were not up to the standards one would expect.

The lack of quality reflects a couple things in my opinion. First the no reserve format is killing BJ in terms of consigning great cars. Who wants to take the chance in this market with a special car at a no reserve auction? Secondly for whatever reason you choose there were simply not a lot of buyers or spectators for that matter at the auction. Saturday night was like a ghost town for an auction. Lets just say parking was not an issue and parking most any Saturday night at any major strip casino is tough. I was walking around at 7PM tonight (Saturday) and it looked like it was closing and everyone was packing up to leave? The place was empty. Lots of shocked sellers as well. Very few did well.

rubbinisracing

10-19-2008, 08:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Real Black RS/SS car with a real window sticker...it tripped my trigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

So did you get it? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not me...maybe if it had solid lifters. But I do love black cars with docs.

sixtiesmuscle

10-19-2008, 03:47 PM

He signed for it.

m22mike

10-19-2008, 04:39 PM

Les
Your comments are just what I saw on the tube...alot of empty seats.
I think this event was a bust http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Oh yea, note to Steve...your in a building, it is ok to loose the shades, we already know your cool http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Mike

Chateau Slate 66

10-19-2008, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Oh yea, note to Steve...your in a building, it is ok to loose the shades, we already know your cool http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you!! Man, that looks stupid! Many of the front line guys for both B-J and Mecum think the auction is as much about them as the cars. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

m22mike

10-19-2008, 05:03 PM

Did anyone notice the 69 Ralley Green X Ram Camaro go for $100K plus ?
Interesting read going on at CGR http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.0

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Mike

Xplantdad

10-19-2008, 05:46 PM

Wow... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

427.060

10-19-2008, 05:48 PM

That doesn't look good. Ron Pratt bought the car for $125K plus fees. Hopefully someone will let him know the true history if the car.
James

DarrenX33

10-19-2008, 05:49 PM

Amazing! Wonder how much my real one is worth? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Bill Pritchard

10-19-2008, 06:28 PM

Something seems funny. We have seen the caliber of vehicles Ron Pratt has bought in the past....certainly no lightweights. Now he's buying an *LS6* Chevelle ragtop with an a/c dashboard, and *Z28* Camaro that MacNeish has supposedly put an asterisk with its pedigree? Has he gotten so comfortable with B-J that he's let his guard down? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I, too, noticed the virtually empty hall last night during the auction, and the shameless badgering of people on the 'charitable cause' vehicles http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Amy Sparks-Lasseter leading the non-crowd in singing "Happy Birthday" to a deceased child seemed rather tasteless to me.

shor

10-19-2008, 06:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
singing "Happy Birthday" to a deceased child seemed rather tasteless to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have got to be kidding me.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
does anyone have a video link to this?
why would they do something like that?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

firez

10-19-2008, 06:56 PM

The 69 Z that went for 125 thousand sure has a story by the talk going on at camaros.net. Crazy anymore what is going on.

x Baldwin Motion

10-19-2008, 07:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The 69 Z that went for 125 thousand sure has a story by the talk going on at camaros.net. Crazy anymore what is going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

A former owner said he sold the paperwork/docs on PeeBait and the car was buried... did he sell the VIN and trim tags?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif This sure sounds weird.

SSJunkie68-69

10-19-2008, 07:36 PM

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Someone has some explaining to do. This is going to be interesting......where's the popcorn?

chevelleheart

10-19-2008, 07:45 PM

I sat a few rows behind Ron Pratt yesterday, and couldn't believe he bought that Red Convertible, the paperwork on that car was, in my opion very very suspect, and looked like it was "fresh" , brand new infact, and the buildshett was missing a few things.... !! But after he bought it , I had some serious doubts on my initial thoughts on the car.I was initially happy to see a well done clone go for $150 The Rally Green Camaro , I didn't realize he purchased it , but he had a handful of purchase slips, ( 10 -20) by the look of it,......maybe that one just slipped through, or he needed a driver ?

SBR

10-19-2008, 07:54 PM

I agree with Chris, Mike, and Les about the quality of cars at the auction. How many times has that supposed LS6 conv. been at auction? How about the green rebodied Z28? These things just hurt BJs reputation and when you combine a no reserve environment with those types of cars its no wonder prices are down. I know it's not 2006 anymore but great cars will always hold its value way better than most typical auction cars. JMHO

Late BrakeU2

10-19-2008, 08:05 PM

What's the old adage about 99% of the answers to life's questions are money? Nothing different here. I'm fairly certain that BJ has a multi year contract with speed to air these events,and this one had been planned well in advance of the economic downturn. When the premier and passionate F1 commentator Bob Varsha misses doing color for a potential championship deciding F1 race for an auction,that should tell you what it's all about Alfie- contracts.

If I were going to put my car in a BJ auction,factoring all associated costs of transportation,lodging,amount of qualified buyers etc I would most certainly wait three months till Scottsdale for obvious reasons. Don't know about you fellers but i'm officially tired of the sunglass steve and Craig show,Carroll Shelby signed anything,and rambling diatribes when the bidding stalls. I realize it's a revenue stream for many people and does great things for charities but it's just old. Those two looked like they were on suicide watch after the MG went through.

Good thing Ron Pratt was there(hint)

Jeff H

10-19-2008, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was amazed this 70 Camaro went for $87K.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that's really surprising. Is it a total custom or something? Those huge rear wheels don't look right on the car either. And I can't believe Pratt would be buying bogus cars or rebodies, I sure hope he finds out what those cars really are if they aren't legit.

CamarosRus

10-19-2008, 08:59 PM

Interested to read, if the Camaro factory from Portland Oregon (uses little aluminum diamond plate ramps to elevate their cars) had more of their born with powertrain, fully documented cars at the show.

Bill Pritchard

10-19-2008, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
singing "Happy Birthday" to a deceased child seemed rather tasteless to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

you have got to be kidding me.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
does anyone have a video link to this?
why would they do something like that?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the setup:

They were auctioning off yet another of the "special" B-J black-n-red Mustangs. Some charity was to receive the proceeds of this sale; the charity was named after an 18 month old girl who had died from one of the diseases that the charity is trying to eradicate. Yesterday just happened to be the birth date of this little girl. That was mentioned, tastefully, by one of the charity spokespersons. A short time later, after bidding had stalled yet again, Amy came on stage and grabbed the microphone and proceeded to goad anyone in earshot to sing along in "Happy Birthday" to this little girl. That's when I turned the channel http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

kwhizz

10-19-2008, 10:07 PM

.......Also.......Did anyone Notice that when the Bidding on Craig Jacksons personal Camaro didn't do too well, that a phone Bidder jumped in and bought it...........Not saying anything was not on the Up and Up..........Hummm!!!

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Xplantdad

10-19-2008, 10:17 PM

Ken...are you in Fla? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

markinnaples

10-19-2008, 10:28 PM

CJ's Camaro ended in the mid-70's....

At the end, CJ was saying how it went better than they expected and how it was a great success.

All those empty seats and weak bidding sure didn't make it look like a great success.

69L78

10-19-2008, 10:37 PM

I think that this is the same car that was judged at the GM Natl's at Carlisle this year, I talked with the owner and he said it was going to Barrett Jackson, so whoever judged that car at Carlisle should have some info on the car, and yes it showed up at Carlisle with the RS emblem in the grille and the intake and carb in the trunk. I asked the owner why he brought it to Carlisle to be judged and he told me that he and the guy who does his restoration work wanted to see how it would score.

quick-bowtie

10-19-2008, 11:44 PM

I was there from late thursday until the last car sold on saturday. I thought prices were insanley high on friday...95% of the car were Junk or wanna be Pro-Toruing cars (car with just big wheels and lowered)..

Camaros and Tri 5 Chevys were hott!!! T-Birds and 66'& 67' Chevelles were down alot from what Ive seen..

Saturday price fell off alot towards mid day, they had some NICE custom cars that didnt bring any money at all.. I felt bad for a few of the guys because they had some QUALITY CUSTOMS..

Barrett attracts the guys that like pigs in lip stick (junk car with a nice paint jobs) I was amazed at the low prices of the few Good legit Quality cars there vs the junk that brought HUGE money! I had a list of about 6 cars that I checked out before hand, I almost got the X Kevin Hand 70 Z28 with 3,xxx miles but got out bid on the 3rd and final call.. I wish I would have bid again NOW! but when you factor in 10% commission and shipping that kills it!

Over all I didnt see any SMOKING HOT DEALS, except for a couple of customs and Craigs JAG XJ 220.

It was funny to watch the drunk guys in the sky boxes throwing there money around buying junk just so the could be on TV.. If they know anything about cars I bet there going to be crying when they sober up and the transporter shows up to drop off there new "GEMS" lol.

I had a blast and I could Barrett Vegas being highly sucessful in the future! Only bad thing was the distance between where the cars were displayed and where the auction was taking place.. Id definately take some cheap drivers out there next year but until they bring back the reserve I wouldnt chance a good car..

Canuck

10-20-2008, 12:16 AM

I spent a few hous ther each day,not a lot of #1 cars. I spoke with the fellow selling the green LS6 and a 68 Camaro. I did not get his neme but he tolf me he was in the rel estate business in PA and things were not going well so the cars had to go. He said BJ people told him he chould expect $125,000 for the Chevelle. He got $65,000.
Saw some stupid buying too, the 70 442 convert sold for 90K, pretty car with lots of wrong stuff,like an interior from a Cutlass S hardtop. And this car supposidly came from one of the top Olds Resto shops in the country.
A few minutes after the Olds a 67 Shelby only gets bid to $85,000 a similar car later gets to $150,000.
Watched that Chrysler limo sell at $87k and the buyer (probably the seller buying it back) looked liked he had been kicked in the nuts.
That Red LS6 had lots of stuff that was questionable.
Many cars seemed like they were prepped for the auction without any care to getting them presentable.
Paul

kwhizz

10-20-2008, 12:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ken...are you in Fla? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Not Yet! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif...........Soon Come http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif........LOL

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

quick-bowtie

10-20-2008, 02:04 AM

I thought the Green LS6 brought all the dough.. in the current market conditions, it was a green car (I like green but alot of people dont) it had some paint work done to it and the biggest down fall was it was a Auto on the column.

it brought $71,500 with the juice, pretty good money in my opinion or aleast more than I would spend on it.

The Olds 442 Convertible Canuck mentioned had alot of EYE BALL, but I agree that was crazy money for that car!

I saw ALOT of bogus cars and cars with bogus paper work, There was a real nice looking 66' Chevelle SS Convertible Black with White guts, the car had the look! but the idiot who made the fake paper work did the buildsheet like a 1970 sheet! and that make you question all the other docs the car had.

It is definately buyer beware!

Shankin

10-20-2008, 03:29 AM

I just got to watch it from home but thought a couple of the vettes that went through were good deals. If i see one more restomod it will be to soon.

Les Quam

10-20-2008, 03:49 AM

Perhaps QuickBowtie's post sums up the current state of B.J. the best. "I wouldn't take a chance on bringing a good car there" I also agree the layout wasn't user friendly the cars were displayed in two different locations and both were far away from the block. Not fun.

704EVER

10-20-2008, 04:22 AM

Hey guys, I just dropped in from TChevelle to see what everyones' thoughts on the auction were. I thought it would go over much better than it did but I guess it's also a sign of the times. One thing I did notice is that out back or around the staging lines, it seemed like a ghost town. Of all the auctions I have attended, the staging lines always seem to be heavily populated with prospective buyers. This show, I guess for logistical reasons, just didn't have that.

Shevelle

10-20-2008, 06:14 AM

I just returned from BJ. Overall, I was very disappointed. We took what I would consider a couple of "junk" cars as well as some very nice, correct, and highly documented cars. While we made out alright on most, they still went for considerabily less than expected, both by us and BJ. I bought the best car I took back. I came away with the feeling that there was not much appreciation for originality or correctness, and that that the buyers were more responsive to the resto/customs. We were told by BJ staff that there was 50% new bidders and that a large percentage of those were from Canada. We heard that the Canadians have to pay 30% to get the cars back across the border. I don't know that to be true, it is what we were told by more than one Canadian. Obviously that would have a large impact on thier bidding. Of the 9 cars we took, we know that at least 4 of them went to Canada.

There were a lot of things that I, as well as others were complaining about besides the price of the cars. Foremost, was the auction layout. Auction cars were either located inside the showroom pavilion, or outside under the tents. These two locations were at least a 30min walk from each other and neither were close to the bidding arena. The staging lanes were located near the tent cars. It was IMPOSSIBLE to look at a car in the staging lane and be able to make it to the auction block in time to bid on it. I know because I tried it, twice, and missed the cars both times and I even had a golf cart! I had cars in the showroom, cars under the tents and my entire weekend was literally spent manouvering from location to location. If you were looking for one particular car, you didn't know if it was in the showroom or under a tent. Most people I talked to didn't even realize that there were cars in two separate locations. To sum up, the layout was beyond horrible.

Also, the bidders seating was inadequate and leaning towards some sort of ill-thought favoritism. I've been reading on the boards and see a lot of mention about all the empty bidders seats. No doubt there were not as many bidders there as we are used to seeing in Scottsdale, but as a bidder I could find lots of empty chairs, but could not find a place to sit. That is because unless you were special enough, for whatever reason, to have your name pasted on a chair, there were no chairs available. The whole front two sections of seating were reserved for people who were Not there more than they were. So okay, maybe somebody like Ron Pratt deserves a front row seat. Maybe there are 100 people just like him that deserve a front row seat. But reserving 2/3's of the bidding section with half of those people not sitting in their chairs is just wrong. As a consigner, I would much rather see a bunch of first time registered bidders sitting in chairs than watching my car go across the block and looking out at a bunch of name tags.

Overall, it was a disappointment. I know the economy plays a big part in the price of the cars and that's not BJ's fault, but the Vegas venue has a long way to go to begin to come even close to Scottsdale. It all sounded good. Go to the auction during the day, gamble and do the Vegas scene at night. After walking around for miles in circles three days in a row all I wanted to do was lay down. The only time I even saw "Vegas" was when I was looking out of the airplane window coming and going. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

m22mike

10-20-2008, 07:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone notice the 69 Ralley Green X Ram Camaro go for $100K plus ?
Interesting read going on at CGR http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.0

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI

There are some new post's to the above thread.

Canuck

10-20-2008, 08:05 AM

The Canadian dollar is now trading at 85 cents to the US dollar so it is costing us $25% exchange plus a 5% tax to get them into the country. % months ago our dollar was above us making a car purchase a bargain. Canadians love Vegas.

Paul

mockingbird812

10-20-2008, 08:17 AM

That is one lulu of a story!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

x Baldwin Motion

10-20-2008, 01:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone notice the 69 Ralley Green X Ram Camaro go for $100K plus ?
Interesting read going on at CGR http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.0

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI

There are some new post's to the above thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif ( If there is truth to this story) This is a sad turn of events for the hobby when illegally transfered VIN tags go unnoticed and unmentioned by so many in the know. I guess hind sight is still 20/20 as the seller clearly regrets what had happened years ago. But as Wagonman was clearly pointing out, things may not be what they appear, even to experts. The legaleeze http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif spoken at auctions and in vehicle descriptions will continue to deceive newcomers to the hobby and those with too much money to perform their due diligence. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

As times get tough in the economy look for more of this to happen. Sad. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

JMHO http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Xplantdad

10-20-2008, 06:51 PM

Hey Jacquie...sorry to hear that your experience wasn't all that great in LV. That sucks...as you should have had some time to have fun...not constantly run around between buildings and tents. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Glad to hear that you made it home safe... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

CC Rider

10-20-2008, 07:05 PM

Some friends went out to Las Vegas, planned this trip for 6 months! They invited me, but I'm going to SEMA.

Their plans were to make this a fun vacation while taking 18 cars out there to sell.

I'm guessing they did not have as much fun as anticipated.

Thanks for the on-the-sight review Jacquie. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

rich p

10-20-2008, 07:25 PM

My 5 cents !!

Most auctions are made up of about 75% Dealers 15% True Collectors and about 5% bottom feeders looking for steals..
Now with the economy the way it is I would think that the 75% dealers are not moving inventory as quickly if at ALL.
These are the guys that you see selling back and forth to each other at these auctions and I think that 75%(dealers buying) has dropped a LOT. Now people would think the market is falling worse. Like someone said if you are not there to see these cars in PERSON you would be surprised, what you would see in person. Its ALL eyecandy to the eye's but for the 15%(true collectors) in house it is JUNK !!! Im sure the 5%(bottom feeders) just got bigger in their minds !!

chevelleheart

10-20-2008, 09:33 PM

Yes , I must say it was a real eye opener to go there, and see the "Real deals" vs the Lipstick cars !

Stefano

10-21-2008, 06:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
My 5 cents !!

Most auctions are made up of about 75% Dealers 15% True Collectors and about 5% bottom feeders looking for steals..

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich, help me with the math. Who are the missing 5%?

m22mike

10-21-2008, 07:12 AM

The CRG thread has been yanked http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Keith Tedford

10-21-2008, 07:20 AM

The other 5% is probably mixed in with the 75%.

1969grb

10-21-2008, 08:11 AM

Mike, Now why would they do that? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Grady http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

MAX71Z-28

10-21-2008, 08:41 AM

I worked at a parts store back in Montana through the 1990's and had become known as a Camaro source. I had one person bring in pics of his 1969 Z/28 Camaro he had bought new. I am pretty sure it is same car. Flat hood rally green white stripes rally sport z. also it did have chambered exhaust on it. If you watch the part where they show the original photo the car has a Montana License plate on the front. The first two #'s on the plate signify the county where car is registered. I had the DVR record the event and had my wife watch the green Z/28. Because green is her favorite color. She is the one who noticed the original Conrad Montana license plate in the photograph.

x Baldwin Motion

10-21-2008, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The CRG thread has been yanked http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The elephant in the living room that you weren't talking about...... it's gone. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

or maybe it's a big mistake and a different car http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

rich p

10-21-2008, 02:42 PM

Sorry forgot !! Add those 5% to the 75% with their hands in there pockets !!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

PeteLeathersac

10-21-2008, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The CRG thread has been yanked http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed the outcome....what happened before the thread was pulled?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

firez

10-21-2008, 04:54 PM

I was told the fellow that started that thread asked that it be pulled.He mentioned something about legal action and he wanted it to go away. It sure went away fast. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

SSJunkie68-69

10-21-2008, 07:03 PM

This sucks.....I followed the thread on CRG when it first came up until it was pulled and was feeling good about the facts that were coming forward as too much of this took place in the past.

According to the former owner of the Z-28 it was the same car he buried years before with out removing the tags and hidden vins. At the time he decided to bury the car, it had been banged up enough that is was too far gone to fix so he disposed of it but he kept the paperwork which he sold on EBay about 5 years ago.

Then this car comes up across the block and he is convinced that it was his former car or his paperwork was used to re-create his former car which was 6' under in the ground. A check of the vins do indicate that this indeed is the same as what he used to own.

Now however the car has been certified as an original z by a recognized expert on Z's. The former owner claims there is no way this can be the case as the car was too damaged when he decided to dispose of it.

Either the car is real or it is not. Too many high level players are involved to just sweep this under the rug. I was hoping we would get a definitive answer because if the car is indeed a re-body/clone/recreation/tribute or what ever, some people in the know got fooled and it if happened to them, it can happen to any of us.

ANDY M

10-21-2008, 07:56 PM

Will CSI Camaro exhume the body? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif
Who's goose will be cooked? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
Stay tuned...

PeteLeathersac

10-21-2008, 08:18 PM

I thought the guy had said he did remove the Vin and Cowl tags also a section w/ one hidden Vin before burying the car?.
Then had sold these items along w/ the paper he had and key knock outs etc?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

TDW

10-21-2008, 08:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the guy had said he did remove the Vin and Cowl tags also a section w/ one hidden Vin before burying the car?.
Then had sold these items along w/ the paper he had and key knock outs etc?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what he said. There were pictures of all the docs, the VIN plate, the cut out sheet metal with the VIN and the Trim tag on the CRG site before the post was removed.

SSJunkie68-69

10-21-2008, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I thought the guy had said he did remove the Vin and Cowl tags also a section w/ one hidden Vin before burying the car?.
Then had sold these items along w/ the paper he had and key knock outs etc?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

That is what he said. There were pictures of all the docs, the VIN plate, the cut out sheet metal with the VIN and the Trim tag on the CRG site before the post was removed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had asked the previous owner of the Z in question that very question in the thread on CRG and I thought he indicated that they were not removed and he had left them in tact on what was left of the car at the time he buried it. The last time I saw the thread was yestersday afternoon sometime around 4:00 PM before it was pulled so if he responded otherwise, I might of missed it.

Seems like it's not moving away on CRG......

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4449.0

I would like to know what the outcome of this is and I really hope it's not swept under the rug.

SuperNovaSS

10-21-2008, 09:31 PM

I'm confused. What did the seller of the tags think the buyer was going to do with them? Was he making himself out to be an innocent party? On the plus side, I now know that CRG has a forum section http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Jason

PeteLeathersac

10-21-2008, 10:10 PM

Thanks fellas,

- I hadn't seen the pics but thought that's what I'd read and wanted to clarify after reading SSJunkie's posting above stating the opposite..

Sad situation but certainly nothing new..
If legally pursued, this could be a great example for all to see those involved swing for their dirty deeds...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

The Dude

10-21-2008, 10:41 PM

All tags were removed, along with the hidden cowl VIN. Heater box VIN was not removed. The picture showed the removed parts along with the keys, an emblem, and all paperwork.

RamAirDave

10-21-2008, 10:43 PM

Pic is still up at TC:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1086590&postcount=27

chevelleheart

10-21-2008, 11:17 PM

I realy hope we get final answers on the camaro, I realize there's reputations , pride,and possibly legal issues to dealt with, but this is really a huge problem for the hobby. The amount of homework required, and ability to look at a car, know what your looking for,Rebody's,Block Stamps,hidden vin's,.....and then throw in the ability to look at paperwork and determine what is forged,and what's real, you almost need an Art expert and carbon dating tools !! It really is a shame, because almost every car i look at I start from point of view that it's a clone / rebody / restamped car and work back from there ( Guilty until proven innocent).I know on Friday you could still see pics of the tags,paperwork the guy had sold on Ebay, but it's no longer available, or at least i can't seem to find it.

TDW

10-21-2008, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Pic is still up at TC:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showpost.php?

p=1086590&postcount=27 (http://www.camaros.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1086590&postcount=27)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep...That's the pictures I am talking about. The VIN plate is under the Trim Tag. You can see it pretty good if you make the picture bigger.

Keith Tedford

10-21-2008, 11:27 PM

The picture seems to be gone too.

x Baldwin Motion

10-21-2008, 11:38 PM

this thread won't last long either
http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.45

neither will this one..
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=143863&page=5

what a mess!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
the original thread that was down for editing now looks like a transcript of the watergate tapes!!!!

njsteve

10-22-2008, 12:33 AM

I would make an educated guess that someone reminded the alleged Gary guy that selling a VIN tag is a federal felony. Therefore his posts are (were) the only visible crime committed, complete with his admission, evidence of photos and old ebay auction information. That is probably why he isn't talking now and has had his posts deleted.

Oh, and yes, buying a VIN tag is also a federal felony, as is installing it on a body it didn't come on originally.

If you, as the new "owner" of the VIN tag have a shop install on another bodyshell for you, that adds another count of Conspiracy as well, and the shop people that install it are added to the indictment list.

The buyer is essentially an innocent victim if the car turns out to be a VIN-swapped rebody. The auction house has no liability based on their boilerplate contract with buyers/sellers. So the buyer would have to sue the seller in a civil action and try and get his $$$ back and he would have to bring in the alleged Gary guy to testify as to his selling of the VIN tag which would be difficult since he can claim his 5th ammendment right against self-incrimination.

Sounds fun doesn't it?

Now I know why I went to law school all those years ago...just so I could figure out what goes on at carshow/auctions. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

chevelleheart

10-22-2008, 12:37 AM

Great explanation Steve !!!

njsteve

10-22-2008, 12:48 AM

No problem.

To any considering going to law school, my explanation above is an example of how to answer a criminal law final exam question...a whole lot of issue spotting with no actual answer to the question asked. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Mr70

10-22-2008, 12:53 AM

now for some fancy pageant walking.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Dog427435

10-22-2008, 12:55 AM

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/dog427435/plate.jpg

704EVER

10-22-2008, 12:59 AM

My money says they scared him to death, he's out lawyered, out monied and out of his league dealing with this element.

njsteve

10-22-2008, 01:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/dog427435/plate.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

DOH!

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/nk15268a/HomerSimpson2Thumb.gif

TXZS

10-22-2008, 01:07 AM

As we say in West Texas, "it looks like somebody's goose is fixing to get cooked".

Mark_C

10-22-2008, 01:22 AM

More importantly the car is now essentially worthless regardless of any spin or lawyering put on it, and the guy that restored and sold it has his reputation in question as well.

If anyone really cares the vin was 124379N509335. The shell was allegedly sold thru ebay during October of 2007 by bowtieacres aout of PA. The paperwork and other components was sold back in 2003 or 2004.

njsteve

10-22-2008, 01:28 AM

Do you have the old ebay auction numbers?

kwhizz

10-22-2008, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No problem.

To any considering going to law school, my explanation above is an example of how to answer a criminal law final exam question...a whole lot of issue spotting with no actual answer to the question asked. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like some Politican's also..................LOL....Wait.......He was a Lawyer before becoming a Politician.........Double LOL........

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

427.060

10-22-2008, 01:48 AM

I figured the posts would get deleted on CRG so I saved everything that was posted up til a little after 5 pm yesterday.
James

Mark_C

10-22-2008, 01:55 AM

All the various sites, have edited, locked or othewise closed down the threads on this car. Thats about the worst thing that can happen since now the car is tainted with no explanation as to how it got to where it is now. I don't think that classicgary had anything to gain by making up a story about tags, vins and paperwork sold 4 or 5 years ago without a body. If his name is on the title as a previous owner then there is some serious issues here.

J. McNeisch's report said the car had a "restoration drive train" (along with other stuff) in it, and yet the buyer, who you would assume read the certification, still paid 125K for the car. Was Jerry's report altered? Something is going on that needs to be answered.

njsteve

10-22-2008, 02:04 AM

Here's a recently locked post.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1087917&posted=1#post1087917

The gary guy put in a retraction of his previous posts and the administrators locked the main post...right after I replied with my "law school exam question" description of the whole mess. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Kim_Howie

10-22-2008, 02:23 AM

OPPS http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Xplantdad

10-22-2008, 02:26 AM

Thank god I just drive my car... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

al8apex

10-22-2008, 03:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you have the old ebay auction numbers?

[/ QUOTE ]

anything over 3 months is not able to be viewed

SOME older auctions can still be viewed BUT you need the item number

Here is a pic of the VIN tag I saved off the other thread:

http://static-digitalvault.cox.net/static/rohns9/thumb/d510f5668d84953974ba81d903c785da/48fe6042/YxETcR-thumbnail-0.png

http://static-digitalvault.cox.net/static/rohns9/thumb/8b473483ede3ccb2103d7b46b0019d5e/48fe6042/DHABdc-thumbnail-0.jpg

quick-bowtie

10-22-2008, 03:10 AM

As for Jerry's report I dont remember seeing it on display with the car I may be wrong though, one thing Ive learned is just because they say in a cars description it has been inspected by Jerry or Galen our what ever guru you want doesnt always mean it has a good report.

Im sure some sellers list that hoping that the buyer will assume the car is good because and expert has looked at it and then let the unexpecting buyer find it out later when its to late.

I think its buyer beware and you have to do your homework on cars but I remember watching this car cross the block and Gary Bennett PUMPED the hell out of the car to the crowd as if he really knew the car..

Canuck

10-22-2008, 03:22 AM

I will be curious to see if the footage of that sale is included in the endless reruns over the next 3 months.

Paul

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 04:12 AM

I don't know why I am following this perhaps its like stopping to look at an auto accident on the side of the road?

Its my understanding the original shell absent the identity tags was sold and the identity tags with the paperwork was sold at another time??? Then we are presuming they were never reunited?????????

Anyway, NJSteve I think despite the boilerplate consignment K the buyer is a buyer in good faith and if his funds have not been disbursed BJ can and should withhold payment to the seller pending the cloud being removed from the title? In this case I think the cloud can be removed by removing a fender and checking for the hidden heaterbox VIN? That would be best answered by a Camaro expert? The way I read the K, BJ doesn't waive liability for selling a car with an illegally transferred VIN once they are put on notice. Absent notice I think they have no liability? In this case it appears BJ is on notice the car may have the VIN and identity of another car and I think if I was advising them I would advise them to withhold the funds and put the funds in escrow. I would also advise them to just go out and pull the fender while this is removal is being videotaped and look for the VIN. The NHP would also do it while the car is still here. If no VIN or wrong VIN I would tell the seller to pick up his car and give the buyer his money back. It doesn't matter whether the seller was a good faith seller in due course he is stuck with the car. I know BJ doesn't pay their sellers for at least a month so the funds should still be there. If the car has been shipped it needs to come back to Vegas and NHP can investigate its identity.
What do you think?

It also seems to me when the car was being restored someone during this process would have looked at the hidden VIN under the heaterbox? How would that not have happened? Just wondering?

Bottom line this why I can call all the original owners of my three Camaro's I own. Camaro world is a very scary place sometimes. I need to talk to live bodies before I will buy a Camaro.

DarrenX33

10-22-2008, 04:17 AM

Owner history is a good thing. Like you Les, I have plenty on both my cars. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

al8apex

10-22-2008, 04:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you have the old ebay auction numbers?

[/ QUOTE ]

anything over 3 months is not able to be viewed

SOME older auctions can still be viewed BUT you need the item number

Here is a pic of the VIN tag I saved off the other thread:

http://static-digitalvault.cox.net/static/rohns9/thumb/d510f5668d84953974ba81d903c785da/48fe6042/YxETcR-thumbnail-0.png

http://static-digitalvault.cox.net/static/rohns9/thumb/8b473483ede3ccb2103d7b46b0019d5e/48fe6042/DHABdc-thumbnail-0.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

wow look at that they yanked my pictures ...

email off board if you want to see them: [email protected] http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 04:34 AM

I think what causes this case to be different is that BJ may be on notice that an issue as to the cars identity exists? Or at least we are inferring that BJ knows about the problem based on the other internet forums threads? It doesn't matter now in my opinion whether classicGary is real or not it appears from this thread, paperwork with the cars VIN was sold on ebay as well as possibly the body shell which is sufficient to prompt an investigation into the cars identity I would think?

If it is true Ron Pratt bought the car if I was BJ I would be working toward resolving this since he is one of their best customers. ClassicGary and his assertions may or may not be accurate and could all be fictious but it appears the shell and paperwork were sold on ebay I would think the buyer would want this thing clearly resolved? And quickly.

427.060

10-22-2008, 04:46 AM

Les, you mention looking for the hidden VIN under the heater box. What's to say that all the hidden VINs were not restamped?
James

COPO 70 RS/Z28

10-22-2008, 04:50 AM

I guess I saw a crowd of gapers and came to see what was going on. Was this the green Z that had the ss and z emblems on the front?????

I saw that car go over and was mesmerized by the color and lights etc. I remember thinking wow is that a beautiful car.

What ever happens it's a shame http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 05:01 AM

James,
Your right I guess the hidden heaterbox VIN could be restamped? I was proceeding on the assumption there is some VIN somewhere on a camaro that couldn't be restamped without leaving evidence of tampering/welding some trail? Not being a camaro expert and in fact being a newbie camaro guy I leave that to the experts.

al8apex

10-22-2008, 05:12 AM

Gary posted his phone number numerous times in the original post

I did not write it down

He is a real person

there was a real sale of the items on ebay years ago

the same VIN appeared on a shell a year AFTER he sold the "memorabilia"

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 05:26 AM

I would submit if thats all true, all of us in the hobby have an interest in helping to protect buyers. If the buyer is in fact Ron Pratt he is good for the hobby in that he keeps buying cars in a terrible market which helps support the value's of all our muscle cars. He seems to be an avid collector and it seems to me we want all the collectors we can get in this hobby? If he buys what later turns out to be a re-bodied car he won't be happy and may be unhappy enough to get out of the hobby? I think we need more collectors and buyer not less. In that regard if he is the buyer and if anyone can contact him I think someone should let him know what we seem to know for him to form his own opinion? I think it needs to be done immediately before the car leaves Vegas if it hasn't and before the sale proceeds are issued to the seller.

njsteve

10-22-2008, 05:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why I am following this perhaps its like stopping to look at an auto accident on the side of the road?

Its my understanding the original shell absent the identity tags was sold and the identity tags with the paperwork was sold at another time??? Then we are presuming they were never reunited?????????

Anyway, NJSteve I think despite the boilerplate consignment K the buyer is a buyer in good faith and if his funds have not been disbursed BJ can and should withhold payment to the seller pending the cloud being removed from the title? In this case I think the cloud can be removed by removing a fender and checking for the hidden heaterbox VIN? That would be best answered by a Camaro expert? The way I read the K, BJ doesn't waive liability for selling a car with an illegally transferred VIN once they are put on notice. Absent notice I think they have no liability? In this case it appears BJ is on notice the car may have the VIN and identity of another car and I think if I was advising them I would advise them to withhold the funds and put the funds in escrow. I would also advise them to just go out and pull the fender while this is removal is being videotaped and look for the VIN. The NHP would also do it while the car is still here. If no VIN or wrong VIN I would tell the seller to pick up his car and give the buyer his money back. It doesn't matter whether the seller was a good faith seller in due course he is stuck with the car. I know BJ doesn't pay their sellers for at least a month so the funds should still be there. If the car has been shipped it needs to come back to Vegas and NHP can investigate its identity.
What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Great point. I totally forgot about the delay in payment that the auction houses have. This is the exact reason it's there (and to collect that month's worth of interest on the money http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif).

Now that the auction house and the seller/buyer are all on notice of this issue, I bet that at least the NHP and the NICB will be there for an inspection. The NICB has a lot of experienced investigators that specialize in examining VIN swaps for chop shop cases. They have a lot of "vintage" car guys that know their vintage cars, too.

BTW, I mentioned this idea on the Camaro site:

This would be a great opportunity for someone to establish a "pre-certification" process that documents a car's body/drivetrain as "born-with" by establishing baseline conditions before any work is done on it, as well as during and after the restoration.

It's kind of like getting permits for building a house...you get the foundation OK'd then the electrical checked off, then the plumbing, etc., until the final certificate of occupancy is granted. You don't just build the house and get the paperwork afterwards to prove you did it correctly.

For example: you find that proverbial semi-rusty, barn-find, black and gold ZL-1 and that's when you have someone come out and photograph/document every square inch of it including all the confidential VIN locations. Then when it's in the midst of the metal work, he comes back again to check it off, and then after paint you get a certificate of originality (or occupancy if you aren't going to drive the darn thing http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif).

It's kind of like what we do here by photgraphically documenting our never-ending restoration stories. You are there to see every step from the find to the finish with no mysterious missing chapters.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Bill Pritchard

10-22-2008, 07:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I worked at a parts store back in Montana through the 1990's and had become known as a Camaro source. I had one person bring in pics of his 1969 Z/28 Camaro he had bought new. I am pretty sure it is same car. Flat hood rally green white stripes rally sport z. also it did have chambered exhaust on it. If you watch the part where they show the original photo the car has a Montana License plate on the front. The first two #'s on the plate signify the county where car is registered. I had the DVR record the event and had my wife watch the green Z/28. Because green is her favorite color. She is the one who noticed the original Conrad Montana license plate in the photograph.

[/ QUOTE ]

I remember seeing what looked like a Montana plate in the old picture, too. They were showing that old picture to back up the fact that the car had both the RS emblem and the Z28 emblem on the grille.

So, did that guy in Montana still own the 69 Z when you were there in the 1990's, or had he sold it long before then? This could help determine whether or not the car that 'Gary' owned is the same car that was sold at the B-J auction....because I'm not sure if it was anything more than speculation as to whether the cars were the same or not http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Perhaps this was verified, but between all the postings on several different websites, I don't remember for sure http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 07:18 AM

Here is where I am confused. Are we certain tha the VIN on the paperwork previously sold on ebay is the same as the car sold this weekend at BJ? If so? Was that same ebay paperwork sold with this car this weekend?

Exactly what items were previously sold on ebay as "memorablia" and were their VINs on those items that belonged on the car that just sold? Sorry for the confusion. With so may threads on so many forums with so many deletions I am confused?

I can't make out what is depicted in the picture on this thread regarding the paperwork? Was a trim plate sold with the items?

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 07:23 AM

On page 11 of this thread their is a picture with a trim plate, protecto plate and another piece of metal, plus other documents? Does anyone know with certainty that the VINs on those items match the VIN on the camaro sold Saturday night? Whats the piece of metal supposed to be?

RamAirDave

10-22-2008, 07:35 AM

From what was posted in the CRG thread, the VIN of the B-J car was the same as the tags/paper sold by Gary years ago.

The piece of metal is the cutout section that contains the hidden VIN under the cowl.

budnate

10-22-2008, 07:40 AM

pretty sure I read on the closed thread he said he checked his old copied paperwork with the numbers posted at the auction and they were the same...I may be having a senior moment but that's what I recall reading. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

rich p

10-22-2008, 07:52 AM

He has already been pointed this direction !!

Rick H

10-22-2008, 04:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I remember seeing what looked like a Montana plate in the old picture, too. They were showing that old picture to back up the fact that the car had both the RS emblem and the Z28 emblem on the grille. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

When we judged the car at Carlisle the owner showed us the picture of the car when it was supposedly brought home from the dealer. The picture was dated a year later and I doubt that was mentioned during the auction. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Rick H.

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 06:50 PM

If the piece of metal sold on ebay is the VIN under the cowl and that piece of metal containing the VIN is on the car sold this weekend and the trim plate sold on ebay also matches the VIN of the car sold this weekend then that car needs to be impounded before it leaves Vegas and NHP needs to be brought in. Just follow the piece of metal with the VIN on it. Whatever car it is currently on has been used to perpetuate a fraud and whomever welded that piece of metal with the VIN on it to the car has changed the identity of a car.
Geez, does anyone know if BJ has this information? Is anyone certain they have the correct VIN and lot number of the car sold this weekend? I will make some calls today? Thanks.

rich p

10-22-2008, 08:18 PM

If we are talking about the car Pratt bought,its already arrived the other day with the LS6 convert and a few others !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Canuck

10-22-2008, 08:30 PM

I am sure Mr. Pratte has been informed about this topic and will no doubt be asking BJ to make this go away. I am sure the car will show up at another auction soon or on Ebay.
He has madea lot of purchases with BJ and they will not want him to go away mad.

Paul

Les Quam

10-22-2008, 09:34 PM

If the allegations are true the car needs to be destroyed its not a clone or tribute but if true a fake. If this information is true someone else shouldn't have to go through this and may not have Ron's clout to resolve this? If its in Arizona the highway patrol needs to be notified. BJ or Ron if he is the buyer should ensure this car is destroyed for the good of the industry.

Charley Lillard

10-22-2008, 09:45 PM

Destroy a perfectly good car ? Les..Calm down.

NovaMob03

10-22-2008, 10:08 PM

Mr Pratte should ask the seller to come down, remove the fender & heater box to check the 2nd vin and prove it's real or not. Heck, why not fly the previous owner, Gary, down at the same time. If it proves to be rebodied, then the seller can take it back home with him & pay BJ both commissions.

kwhizz

10-22-2008, 10:31 PM

I'll take it (Priced accordingly) and Drive the Tires off it........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
(Non Numbers Guy)

Xplantdad

10-22-2008, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll take it (Priced accordingly) and Drive the Tires off it........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
(Non Numbers Guy)

[/ QUOTE ]

And drive it like he stole it...just keep it on the pavement Ken! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PeteLeathersac

10-22-2008, 10:55 PM

If the allegations are indeed true, nothing says the fraudster wasn't detailed enough to include a matching Vin in both hidden locations..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

Fast67VelleN2O

10-22-2008, 11:04 PM

What makes this CAR any different from an extremely rusty shell that has had 95% of the metal replaced in order to "save" it. Yes the car has been "vin swapped" and the sellers have never disclosed this. What is the difference between swapping plates on a 6 cyl rust free body and a hidden vin to save a very rare and valuable car and replacing 95% of the metal on the real car? I do not see a difference whatsoever.

al8apex

10-22-2008, 11:31 PM

there is a HUGE difference when it is touted as being "original", at least IMHO

The Dude

10-22-2008, 11:38 PM

Thats the thing, it was sold as original. One of the most documented original Zs out there. Personally I wouldnt care if it was rebodied. Choosing between a car with 95% Chinese repro metal and 5% (cowl where tags are attached) real and one thats been rebodied with a shell made by GM, Ill take the rebody. So tell me what one is more real.

BARRY

10-22-2008, 11:40 PM

HI what is it worth now

PeteLeathersac

10-22-2008, 11:48 PM

A Vin jumped car being illegal is one BIG difference!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
~ Pete

Fast67VelleN2O

10-23-2008, 12:06 AM

Put what this car was represented as aside please. What I am talking about here is JUST the car itself. I saw a few posts earlier that someone said the car should be DESTROYED (Les Quam i believe it was). If the vins were never "stolen" and 2 cars were purchased legally and the vin and hidden numbers were switched to SAVE a very rare set of numbers, then I don't see what the difference is between saving a car with 95% of the metal needing to be replaced and one that is completely solid and had a rare set of numbers put on it from a very rusty body to save a piece of GM history.

RamAirDave

10-23-2008, 12:31 AM

IMO, one should start with a car and restore/replace what's needed.

Starting with nothing more than a set of tags just doesn't sit right with me. What exactly is being restored in a case like that?

Mark_C

10-23-2008, 12:34 AM

Its a federal crime to do what you just stated. That's the difference. Assume for the moment that the VIN cowl and cowl vin numbers came from a body that truly was destroyed, how do you know where the new donor body came from and what its legal status was. Anyone had a 69 Camaro stolen that this body might have come from? I don't think that whoever swapped the tags and hidden VINs had the appropriate authorities come down and examine him doing it and got the appropriate blessings (if there even is a way to do this).

Forget that the rebodied car is not worth close to 125K that was paid for it. It was marketed as one of the most original 69 Z28s ever.

TMagda

10-23-2008, 12:46 AM

Disregarding the legality of the restorers actions and the way it was marketed, is it possible the buyer did not care about matching numbers and just liked the car? He appears to have the resources to be able to overpay due to personal preference.

Mark_C

10-23-2008, 01:03 AM

Any day he wants a 69 pacecar for 125K he can have mine, I'll even deliver it.

Seriously who, no matter how much money they have, would over pay by at least two and a half times what the car would have been worth with a "restoration drive train" and an original body, let alone a rebody and nothing original on it (if we are to beleive the story).

Would Bill gates pay 10 bucks for a hamburger when the retail price is 1.39 just because he's Bill Gates. I doubt it.

TMagda

10-23-2008, 01:17 AM

I missed the part where he paid $125k. That is a lot.

Mr70

10-23-2008, 02:04 AM

What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

DaveC68

10-23-2008, 02:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guessing restamped/restored to appear "as was" when new. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

PeteLeathersac

10-23-2008, 02:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guessing restamped/restored to appear "as was" when new. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it's a perfect imitation if there even can be such a thing and the 'restoration' engine or drivetrain names came from the Corvette crowd..

I always think of it as kind've like the Jaguar owners club...they like telling everyone how superior of an automobile they are yet when you get one, you soon learn the truth and it's too late so you have to either join the others in the liar's club or lose money..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

njsteve

10-23-2008, 04:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Put what this car was represented as aside please. What I am talking about here is JUST the car itself. I saw a few posts earlier that someone said the car should be DESTROYED (Les Quam i believe it was). If the vins were never "stolen" and 2 cars were purchased legally and the vin and hidden numbers were switched to SAVE a very rare set of numbers, then I don't see what the difference is between saving a car with 95% of the metal needing to be replaced and one that is completely solid and had a rare set of numbers put on it from a very rusty body to save a piece of GM history.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fast67VelleN20,

The difference plain and simple is that IT IS A FELONY, period, end of story. It doesn't matter what your altruistic reasons are, for example, that you are saving the only one of its kind, or you had a 6 cyl perfect body and the original body was too rusty to save, etc. The law has no loophole for restorations. (-if you want that loophole, call your congressman and lobby for it. Maybe we can then call them "Restoration Bodies" to go along with the "Restoration Engines" already out there)

Your opinion doesn't matter in criminal court.

If you take the VIN from one body and put it on another IT IS A FELONY. If you sell, buy, trade a VIN tag IT IS A FELONY. (I know I am beginning to sound like Jeff Foxworthy here...You might be a felon if...)

The VIN dies with the car. There is no reincarnation with VIN plates. There is no transplantation with VINs. There is no Hindu caste system with VINs that elevates one from a Z/28 to a higher Karmic level than one from a 6 cyl coupe.

O.J. didn't think it was robbery and kidnapping to bring a bunch of thugs with guns into a hotel room and order people around and take their property. But guess what, robbery and kidnapping are still felonies regardless of your personal beliefs.

Here's an analogy.

Jon Smith thinks that money should be free to take from a bank because it's just paper. Jon Smith doesn't have a bank account at the First Savings & Loan. Jon Smith legally owns a gun. Jon Smith walks into the First Savings & Loan with a gun and takes $125,000 from the teller. Since Jon Smith doesn't believe it should be a crime, did a crime actually occur?

Yes, because it's still a felony regardless of what Jon Smith believes.

Cars with swapped VINs are considered contraband under the law and are seized 99% of the time. They cannot be returned to the open market and are either used as law enforcement vehicles or scrapped. There is no replacement VINs issued by the federal government. And it is very rare that a state will issue a new identification number for the car and let it go back out - too many liability issues.

Mark_C

10-23-2008, 04:24 AM

"Restoration drive train" is a term Jerry MacNeish uses in his reports for restamped components. Goes hand in hand with JohnZ's "restoration graffiti" as applied to all the chalk marks on firewalls and inspection marks on every component under the hood on over restored cars.

And restoration bodies already exist, they are made by Dynacorn and since they never were a "car" you can transfer your VIN and tags over to them, as they are just a giant repair part, not a car. But thats a subject thats already been beaten to death.

COPO 70 RS/Z28

10-23-2008, 04:53 AM

OK Im not an attorney but I am now wondering what happens with one of those Camaro or mustang bodies if you change the whole body do they come with a new vin or ......??????

njsteve

10-23-2008, 05:02 AM

Same legal problems if you put another car's VIN on it. The correct and legal way to do it would be to apply for a state identification number (similar to a VIN but issued by the DMV). Most states have specific guidleines for the process which is usually used when people build kit cars or street rods.

By the way I forgot to mention something else on the donor body issue. If you use a "donor body" you are essentially tampering with that car's VIN by removing/destroying it. That is a whole other felony as well.

JimM

10-23-2008, 05:08 AM

2 cents?

It's always big fun when a car comes back to life.

I remember one rebody discussion a couple years ago when BOTH cars came back to life! You guys remember that one right? It was a copo or a zl1 or something. We were all seeing double for a while. Pretty sure it started kinda like this one, 'cept in that case, 1 car had the vin and cowl tags, and the other had the hidden vins.

Never heard the end or truth of that one, won't on this one either.

I do really like the attitude of "SAVING" the rare "CAR" tho. (LMFAO!)
When they die, they die.

SSJunkie68-69

10-23-2008, 05:17 AM

[/ QUOTE ]

If you take the VIN from one body and put it on another IT IS A FELONY. If you sell, buy, trade a VIN tag IT IS A FELONY. (I know I am beginning to sound like Jeff Foxworthy here...You might be a felon if...)

[/ QUOTE ]

After following this since Saturday on this as well as the other sites.....this had me busting out laughing. Nice post~

Mark C- Your comments are right on as well!

It's pretty clear what happened here as well as a bunch of others that we may never hear about due to lack of exposure. As a group of people - who are ardent hobbyist - we need to make sure we "cut out" this type of thing from continuing. Too many people get burned and it's something that you may never recover from. Call me old school, but to me a Man's word is his bond. If that bond is broken it's very difficult to fix. That's something my Dad taught me long ago and still preaches to this day. As I posted earlier, what happened here happened to some major players and if it can happen to them it can easily happen to any one of us. We need sites like this, Team Camaro and CRG with members who are willing to put their foot down and say enough is enough with this type of http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif !

The Dude

10-23-2008, 05:27 AM

Early Vettes have a VIN tag that is screwed on with two phillips head. Is removing those screws to paint the car a crime? What happens when said painter removes the tag and loses it? I personally know of a car that that happened to. A new VIN tag was made by a company and it was reapplied to the car. What would you classify this car as.

I also know of a 65 post 442 that was sold with a hardtop VIN at Holt Auto Sales in Michigan. Cowl tag was right but VIN was wrong and had rusty round rivets holding it on. Car still exists and owner knows of the VIN issue. In his case the car has the wrong VIN and the wrong title. Should a car like this should be destroyed?

COPO 70 RS/Z28

10-23-2008, 05:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thats the thing, it was sold as original. One of the most documented original Zs out there. Personally I wouldnt care if it was rebodied. Choosing between a car with 95% Chinese repro metal and 5% (cowl where tags are attached) real and one thats been rebodied with a shell made by GM, Ill take the rebody. So tell me what one is more real.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing to consider for those (most of us) who love their cars and also enjoy the fact that we can enjoy something which is a viable investment.

One of the reasons that these cars can be an investment is that the supply remains constant while the demand increases as the population increases. Now an added component is that there may be a certain natural attrition of these due to theft, fire, flood etc. which actually slowly decreses the supply. Now if cars can just be recreated by trading vins etc. and rebodies and be accepted as "the real thing" the value of the lot as a whole has just decreased. The more this practice would be accepted the less unique and "rare" these cars would be until they were worth no more than any other car.

I know this argument is somewhat simplistic and there is much more to the car thing than money, but you gotta admit it make you think

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

x Baldwin Motion

10-23-2008, 06:05 AM

so if you see some tags for sale on PeeBait write down the numbers !!! before the pics are deleted!!!

http://www.yenko.net/photos/data/522/69_tags.JPG

IF YOU ARE DRIVING A CAR WITH THESE NUMBERS, ASK THE PREVIOUS OWNER WHY THE TAGS WERE OFF!!
(I'm no 69 expert and don't know what these tags are from.)

Racefan

10-23-2008, 06:28 AM

This topic has been discussed here before. I recall taking part in discussions about rumors of people rebodying Yenkos in the mid-West in the 1980s. Wonder how may "original" Yenkos are out there which have exactly the same issue? I remember at the time, someone said that it was a fairly common practice to rebody these cars back "in the day".
As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure I made some enemies for my participation on that thread.

We won't hear anything about these though. As was discussed then, there are those who know of the cars with "questionable history" BY VIN. This info will not be shared for multiple reasons (money, fear of litigation, don't want to hurt a friend, etc, etc).

All one can do is make the right friends, ask the right questions, and always be prepared that you just made the wrong purchase of a car with "questionable" history.

My question has always been this: If 6 people in a group know about the rebody, and no one speaks up....are they all partially liable for not coming forward with the information? I would think that it would be exactly the same as seeing a crime take place and not coming forward with information, meaning you would have some culpability.

I'll go back to lurking now.....

RamAirDave

10-23-2008, 07:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Early Vettes have a VIN tag that is screwed on with two phillips head. Is removing those screws to paint the car a crime? What happens when said painter removes the tag and loses it? I personally know of a car that that happened to. A new VIN tag was made by a company and it was reapplied to the car. What would you classify this car as.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be a questionable car.

I don't know the exact legalities, but straight R&R (temporary and doesn't go to another car) in the process of resto isn't going to be prosecuted as far as I know. It happens often in the case of upper dash panel replacement and maybe (in vette cases, I don't know) in paint process. For paint, I would rather it be masked rather than removed.

For whatever case, "losing" the removed tag is inexcusable IMO. That's a pretty important piece and great care should be taken as far as securing (not losing) it.

As far as the new VIN tag being made, well... I would wager that the guy that bought the new VIN tag would not say where it was purchased, nor would the tag maker ever advertise. Very illegal to manufacture VIN tags.

The Dude

10-23-2008, 08:11 AM

Post deleted by TK-65

RamAirDave

10-23-2008, 08:13 AM

So the guy is openly making VIN plates?

Care to provide a link?

Les Quam

10-23-2008, 08:16 AM

Witnesses to a crime cannot be prosecuted for not coming forward. What your probably thinking of is a material witness warrant which is issued for a witness that ignores a subpoena after being duly served.

Friends that know of a VIN change cannot be held liable unless they participated in the process of altering the cars identity or later hiding the fact. Mere presence or knolwedge of a crime does not constitute a conspiracy it requires an act in furtherance of the conspiracy. This issue can change when someone knows a crime involving the public safety is ABOUT to occur. But that is more complicated and doesn't relate to this matter.

This car needs to be destroyed because its identity has been altered causing someone to pay 125K in reliance on the fraud. That is just one of the reasons the laws against vehicle identity change exist. This car has been so artfully altered it even fooled a recognized camaro expert who inspected it. If it is not destroyed at some point in the future it again will be sold to a buyer in good faith. The laypersons concept of Buyer beware doesn't cover active acts of identity change, it relates to checking for rust etc.

Almost all states make provisions for lost vehicle identity tags and also for necessary alterations. In those cases the State comes out and personally supervises the work or the car is brought in and clsoely supervised. I had to change out a speedometer on a 97 Porsche a few years back and had to jump through a lot of hoops to get the state to certify the mileage from old to new speedo and the change was supervised by the state.

This case is different than a camaro that left the factory with a 307 engine and the ZL-1 option or other rare options which were later added. Those cars are clones or tributes but their original identities should remain intact. Its unfortunate in Chevy world there is no factory docs like PHS for Pontiacs or a Marti report for Fords to determine a cars original factory options.

This car will not be re-sold if the allegations turn out to be true. Both state and Federal authorities have been notified of the information contained on this thread and other forum threads and have acknowledged reciept of the information and are opening an investigation. The NICB boys are relentless when it comes to cases like this. I think that this car has been sold for the last time assuming everything is true.

RamAirDave

10-23-2008, 08:28 AM

Les, my last post (which I'm guessing is the one you're referring) was in regards to TK's now-deleted post about the guy who makes and advertises making VIN plates.

GMC_Typhoon

10-23-2008, 09:53 AM

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k91/badv6blazer/9z.jpg

njsteve

10-23-2008, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1) Early Vettes have a VIN tag that is screwed on with two phillips head. Is removing those screws to paint the car a crime? What happens when said painter removes the tag and loses it? I personally know of a car that that happened to. A new VIN tag was made by a company and it was reapplied to the car. What would you classify this car as.

2) I also know of a 65 post 442 that was sold with a hardtop VIN at Holt Auto Sales in Michigan. Cowl tag was right but VIN was wrong and had rusty round rivets holding it on. Car still exists and owner knows of the VIN issue. In his case the car has the wrong VIN and the wrong title. Should a car like this should be destroyed?

[/ QUOTE ]

On 1) You are not listening to the facts of this situation. Removing a VIN from a car and putting it back on THE SAME CAR is not a crime. The crime occurs when you put it ON A DIFFERENT CAR. As for the VIN lost by the body shop (which unfortunately happens too often) the owner has to go to DMV and get a state issued identification number for the lost VIN plate. The manufacture and sale of a Vehicle Identification Number is a crime. And there probably are guys that do it...and I imagine those guys are just waiting for that knock on the door in the middle of the night.

On example #2) that owner and the dealer have a big problem. That's a rebody and the owner doesn't know what the body's VIN is - it could be a donor or a stolen car from way back when. He should bring that car back to the dealer now and try to get his money back. The local law enforcement officers in that dealer's town would probably love to know about the transaction in the event he doesn't get his money refunded. (And he should tell them anyway if he does get his money back, just to stop it from happening again)

PeteLeathersac

10-23-2008, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On 1) You are not listening to the facts of this situation. Removing a VIN from a car and putting it back on THE SAME CAR is not a crime. The crime occurs when you put it ON A DIFFERENT CAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect information..
It IS ILLEGAL in many/most/all States and Canadian Provinces..

Although common place, even jumping a Vin tag from an old dashpad to a new one on 'Cudas or like constructed vehicles where the Vin is attached to the pad is illegal..

These situations call for a State issued Vin although in some States and Provinces where there is a provision for it, having the delegated official be present when you do the swap is the only legal way around avoiding the State issued Vin when actually moving a tag or Vinned part in cases like the dashpad above or a collision repair where the part being replaced has a Vin on it..
It's not Ok just document the date you did it or just call them and tell them you're doing it!.

The same applies to the Dynacorn type body cars.. Regardless of what everyone likes to say/think/hope, these are supposed to get a State issued Vin too, not jump the tags from one to the other as there can never be a car left behind without an identity for one thing...even if it's destined for the scrap pile!.

Obviously nobody in the collector car world wants to call the officials or live by the rules as getting a State issued Vin seriously deflates the value of collector cars..
Think of a Hemi Cuda only needing a dashpad and what may happen if you do call!.

I've always wondered how an engine being swapped and a Vinned item itself fits into this part of the legislation also how anyone can legally restamp an engine w/ the Vin but that's another whole issue itself..

There's lots more grey areas like those deemed manufacturers having the Ok when dealing w/ some Vin related issues but again another whole area needing close scrutiny itself..

Here's a bit of reading on one States view of the subject...lots more online if you just look..

http://www.state.in.us/legislative/ic/code/title9/ar18/ch8.html

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...the REAL real ones!

njsteve

10-23-2008, 05:40 PM

You are quite correct, Sir.

I was attempting to simplify the explanation on the issue. But when it comes to statutory writings, there is no way to simplify it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Think of the VIN as a landmine. Don't mess with it or bad things happen.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

MAX71Z-28

10-23-2008, 05:53 PM

Bill , The camaro was sold long ago. Original owner was in Montana and he went to California While he was in the Air Force. He told me he got stopped twice for glasspacks on the car. The Cop who was hassling him did not know what factory chambered exhaust were. So he sold it shortly after being pulled over and harrassed. He sold thecar in late 1970 or early 1971.

COPO 70 RS/Z28

10-23-2008, 06:57 PM

Not this story but a Related Artical in the paper today.

http://www.suburbanchicagonews.com/newssun/news/1236958,5_1_WA23_LAVARR_S1.article

BY NICHOLAS ALAJAKIS [email protected]

WAUKEGAN -- On a day where they both pleaded not guilty to more than two dozen felonies, a mother and son business team from Wauconda was indicted on 29 additional charges.

A Lake County Grand Jury Wednesday afternoon indicted Katherine Laverdure, 81, and Ronald Laverdure, 56, on 29 counts of tampering with vehicle identification numbers.

Earlier in the day, the two owners of K Konstrution, 29693 N. Route 12, Wauconda, pleaded not guilty to charges stemming from a June raid on their business.

Illinois Secretary of State Police, Illinois State Police and Lake County State's Attorney Office raided K Konstrution on June 18 in an investigation stemming from falsified vehicle identification plates. At the business, which was owned by Katherine and operated by Ronald, authorities found a number of vehicles and tractors with falsified VIN numbers and registrations. Police also found a number of guns and cocaine.

On Wednesday, Ronald was arraigned on four counts of driving with a revoked license, 14 counts of unlawful possession of a weapon by a felon and one count of unlawful possession of a controlled substance.

Additionally, both Ronald and Katherine were arraigned on 25 counts related to forging vehicle identifications and titles. Not guilty pleas were entered on all counts.

As the arraignment hearing was going on before Associate Judge Christopher Stride, a grand jury was indicting the pair on 29 additional counts. According to prosecutor Suzanne Willett, all those charges stem from fake identification numbers on the company's construction equipment. Katherine and Ronald, who are both free on bond, are expected to be arraigned on the newest charges next week.

The investigation into the Laverdures was going on for quite some time, investigators said in June. Roughly 20 tractors and vehicles registered to K Konstruction or Ronald Laverdure with fraudulent identification plates were impounded at a heavy equipment auction in Morris, Ill.

Looks like they are serious about this stuff.

Stefano

10-23-2008, 07:00 PM

"This car has been so artfully altered it even fooled a recognized camaro expert who inspected it."

Anyone can be a Victim of Fraud!

PeteLeathersac

10-24-2008, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
"This car has been so artfully altered it even fooled a recognized camaro expert who inspected it."

Anyone can be a Victim of Fraud!

[/ QUOTE ]

Reminds me of a Montreal F1 weekend about 20 years ago when one of the boys fell in love for the night..
He was ready to jump off the Cartier bridge when 'she' turned out to be Lola (nothing to do w/ racing cars of the same name)..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
~ Pete

Mark_C

10-24-2008, 01:40 AM

It didn't fool the person who inspected it. No one would have bought that car for 40K if they had seen all 3 pages of the report.

x Baldwin Motion

10-24-2008, 01:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It didn't fool the person who inspected it. No one would have bought that car for 40K if they had seen all 3 pages of the report.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, Now someone post a copy of the report so everyone is on the up and up. This is the type of education that is needed in this hobby.

Mark_C

10-24-2008, 02:31 AM

You'll have to get it from the new owner (assuming he still is the owner) Only he and the inspector have copies.

Les Quam

10-24-2008, 03:44 AM

The experts report states then, that the cars identity has been altered and it is a rebody??????????????????????? Seems unlikely to me?

SBR

10-24-2008, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What the Hell is a "restoration drive train" anyways?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guessing restamped/restored to appear "as was" when new. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it's a perfect imitation if there even can be such a thing and the 'restoration' engine or drivetrain names came from the Corvette crowd..

I always think of it as kind've like the Jaguar owners club...they like telling everyone how superior of an automobile they are yet when you get one, you soon learn the truth and it's too late so you have to either join the others in the liar's club or lose money..

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ] Pete, I am a corvette guy and I hate when they refer to an engine as a resto motor. I call it what it is, a stamper.

StriperSS

10-24-2008, 04:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Reminds me of a Montreal F1 weekend about 20 years ago when one of the boys fell in love for the night..
He was ready to jump off the Cartier bridge when 'she' turned out to be Lola (nothing to do w/ racing cars of the same name)..

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, gives a whole new meaning to 'Vin swapping' http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

SUSQ

10-24-2008, 04:04 AM

Is that like "genuine imitation leather"?

Smokey

10-24-2008, 04:10 AM

We in the uph. world call it "Polish Leather"

704EVER

10-24-2008, 04:24 AM

My guess here is that considering who the buyer is, BJ may well take this one on the chin themselves. The new owner gets the car regardless, the buyer gets paid maybe not all the cash but most, so he's not screaming and all they need to do is get this to go away. Considering what this buyer alone has generated in commissions for BJ, can anyone really see him paying for this car? Scottsdale is around the corner and any bad press or litigation could be disasterous for the house. They can well afford to eat this deal on behalf of the buyer and we may never hear anything about it again. Everyone is happy, bring on AZ.!!!

quick-bowtie

10-24-2008, 04:41 AM

If the seller is infact the builder then why would Barrett let them off the hook?? NO WAY would that happen or they'ed be opening the door every con-man out there. Im sure Ron will be taken care but Id HATE to be int the builders shoes right now! He is in for a VERY EXPENSIVE LESSON ON RIGHT AND WRONG.

I wouldnt really consider that bad press for Barrett, infact I would think of it as them going after the crooks and doing the right thing and maybe making the next idiot to think twice! JMO

704EVER

10-24-2008, 04:59 AM

I have to disagree here Bowtie, the way BJ has the paperwork set up, it's 100% buyer beware and they are responsible for and guaranty nothing. The seller has every right to demand full payment for the car, as someone bought it, fraud not withstanding, that's a whole different lawsuit. Now BJ is between a rock and a hard place. Do they want their best customer in protracted litigation over one of the cars that went across their block? I wouldn't think so and is it the first time a less than original/fake car has crossed their block? I wouldn't think so on that issue either. The problem for BJ here is who bought the car, if it were you or I, we'd be screwed. Given the set of circumstances concerning this car, the last thing they probably ever thought would happen is Classicgary showing up. Now they need to try to maintain some sort of integrity concerning their auctions and consignments, that's not going to happen with a public dog fight looming. They need this to go away and go away fast, Scottsdale is around the corner. They can well afford to "Take one for the Team" here.

Xplantdad

10-24-2008, 05:19 AM

I beg to differ...BJ doesn't have to take it on the chin...

If there is something wrong with the car...BJ does an unwind...the car gets returned to the seller (or not...depending on what law enforcement does)...then the seller pays both the selling commision...the buying commision and any outstanding fees to BJ as well.

Buyer gets his money back...BJ gets their fees...and the seller deals with the mess that he started...

I think that it would be in the best interest of everyone to make it happen as soon as possible. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

rubbinisracing

10-24-2008, 05:36 AM

Lets see...

Buyer has the car. BJ has the money. Seller is empty handed.

Its easy... buyer gets made whole and learns a valuable lesson. One some of us have paid dearly for. BJ takes the car back and calls the authorities who impound the car for 18-24 months. Seller won't file suit seeking return of the car due to involvement in the fraudulent build and misrepresentation of the car. He ends up with nothing till the authorities decide what to do with the car, although he may be charged with a few felonies.

704EVER

10-24-2008, 05:43 AM

Point taken, but has BJ ever done an unwind? Especially in a high profile case like this? I have no doubt they have the lawyers in place to do it, but has it ever happened? And what about the seller, Gary has "Officially retracted" his statement, so where does that place the seller in litigation wanting his due from BJ? I don't think law enforcement even comes into play now. He presented it, BJ promoted it, someone bought it, who pays? The way I see it is, after Gary retracted, it becomes a viable deal, someone bought the car and someone has to pay for it. I can't see the seller taking the car back and even remotely thinking about paying BJ 18% with Gary retracting, so where does it go from here? I know it's a mess and not right, but I also think that someone's coughing up the money to make it go away. Who has the most to lose here? My guess is BJ, that's all.

fastessfreddy

10-24-2008, 05:57 AM

What ever happened to the gentleman that checked this car out? Jerry macniesh? It seems that he was fooled and is in the center of this.

Now the question is this:

1.) How many cars did he certify over the years? We need to go over and re evaluate all of them!

chevelleheart

10-24-2008, 05:59 AM

Boy has this thread taken on a life of it's own !! Does anyone know who the builder of the Rally Green Camaro is ? I believe I saw him that day coming over to Ron to shake his hand. He's also up on stage during the selling of the car,...kinda a big guy , +/- 5-10 ,+/- 220 lbs ,in a black/white bowling shirt, blondish hair,.... It might be good to know which shop the car came from, just so any potential future buyer's have a bit of a heads up on what kind of work they do ??? Kinda like the Oregon Guy.......

704EVER

10-24-2008, 05:59 AM

I don't see law enforcement taking that car, there are too many grey areas here. The state Prosecutor isn't going to waste time on this, after all, it was certified by an "EXPERT" for the seller, accepted by BJ, and sold, end of story on that front. Once Gary went away, now the car becomes a real/viable commodity that has to be dealt with in a business like fashion. So who's paying the freight here on this deal? My money says the new owner got a gift from BJ.

RamAirDave

10-24-2008, 06:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
And what about the seller, Gary has "Officially retracted" his statement, so where does that place the seller in litigation wanting his due from BJ? I don't think law enforcement even comes into play now. He presented it, BJ promoted it, someone bought it, who pays? The way I see it is, after Gary retracted, it becomes a viable deal, someone bought the car and someone has to pay for it

[/ QUOTE ]

The bell can't be un-rung. His retraction may have been due to his realization that he admitted to committing a felony. It doesn't change the story. Heck, his pics are still up of all the paper/tags.

Les Quam

10-24-2008, 06:13 AM

Law enforcement in the form of the NICB has opened an investigation on the car.

If the seller is whats known as "a seller in good faith" in legal terms then he will have no criminal issues but only civil issues in trying to recover his purchase price from whomever he purchased the car. If the seller is also the restorer and the buyer for the cars current indentity purchased on ebay he has a lot more than monetary issues to concern himself with.

Gary's internet retraction is irrelevant. It appears if the information is true that the car in question is currently displaying identity tags and a part of the cowl with a hidden VIN from another car. Someone had to have welded and affixed the identity tags to the current car. The NICB will determine who that is and turn the results of their investigation over to the US Attorney's office for prosecution.

This is one car that will not surface years later at another auction if its true that its identity was transferred from another car.

Novadiecast

10-24-2008, 06:16 AM

If the authorities are involved they can find "Mr. Gary". A retraction on this or any forum has no merit now.

Les Quam

10-24-2008, 06:25 AM

There are no grey area's here this car appears to have the identity of another car. The person who sold those documents and hidden cowl VIN is still displaying them on his websight. The US attorney's office will prosecute the case if the investigation confirms that these allegations are true not a state prosecutor since the car traveled over state lines. As a former prosecutor I can tell you this case is simple and a rookie could try this case.

The experts opinion would only shield a "seller in good faith" not the person who restored the car or a dealer who sold the car knowing it had its identity switched.

Even the worlds best expert cannot determine if a car has been altered in this fashion. Vehicle identity alterations to this level with this kind of documentation defy experts discovery.

I have never met or spoke too or retained Jerry Macneish but I have read his books and know him by reputation and his reputation is that he is one of the worlds foremost experts on Camaro's. He is not to blame in any fashion for another persons criminal acts of fraud. He like the buyer this weekend is a victim of the fraud. If fraud is established.

704EVER

10-24-2008, 06:29 AM

I hear all your points Les, however there are a lot of "IFs" that I'm sure a lot of people don't want known. A lot of people use other identities when buying on Ebay for one, the paper trail itself may be hard to follow. Are they really going to dig up a land fill or junkyard looking for the original shell? What if the builder was smart enough to remove any other hidden vin from the car in question? Where does that leave NICB? As far as Garys' story goes, I don't doubt it for one second, but proving who took it another step may be very hard. As I stated earlier, I think all the parties involved just want it to go away as fast as possible. Just my .02 on it

Xplantdad

10-24-2008, 06:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Point taken, but has BJ ever done an unwind? Especially in a high profile case like this? I have no doubt they have the lawyers in place to do it, but has it ever happened? And what about the seller, Gary has "Officially retracted" his statement, so where does that place the seller in litigation wanting his due from BJ? I don't think law enforcement even comes into play now. He presented it, BJ promoted it, someone bought it, who pays? The way I see it is, after Gary retracted, it becomes a viable deal, someone bought the car and someone has to pay for it. I can't see the seller taking the car back and even remotely thinking about paying BJ 18% with Gary retracting, so where does it go from here? I know it's a mess and not right, but I also think that someone's coughing up the money to make it go away. Who has the most to lose here? My guess is BJ, that's all.

[/ QUOTE ]

BJ is just the vehicle to sell the car...that's all. They are in business to offer a place to sell a car...that's it...end of story.

The seller bears the responsibility for the claims made and the representations that he made about the car...whether true or not.

With the amount of pictures that are out on the internet on this particular car...or pieces of it...it makes no difference as to whether "Gary" retracted or not.

Buyers and sellers have to sign a contract with BJ and all of this stuff is outlined in the contract. So if they take the time to read the contract (which they should) they will realize thar BJ is free and clear. Should BJ act to rectify the situation? I think so...but it's their choice as to what to do. They know WAY more about this type of stuff than I do! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

From what I know...deals have been unwound at quite a few auctions...including BJ.

Like a really wise man once told me....

"It is what it is". http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

quick-bowtie

10-24-2008, 06:43 AM

Didnt the White ZL1 Reggie owned that sold for around 800k a couple years ago get un-done after they found out it wasnt the original motor? Pretty sure Ron bought that car too. Barrett can undo a deal if its not represented true and the seller pays both commisions.

Mr70

10-24-2008, 06:51 AM

..as well as the Futureliner bus.
Ron was bidding on that too when that lady got head over heals with her significant others money awhile back.Only to go to commercial while Bj reset the hammer once they returned.
My point is,this is not unchartered water with the two of them & I'll bet Bj makes this right with Ron again.If he's smart he'll have them enforce a rule that makes Steve take off those ridiculous glasses during air time.

Mark_C

10-24-2008, 06:55 AM

Theres at least 4 parties involved here. No. 1 - the buyer who really is only an interested party and had no part in how this problem came about, No. 2 - the restorer/rebuilder, No. 3 - the guy he bought the shell from with the VIN and tags already attached, and of course No. 4 - "Gary" who sold the tags and paper work in the first place. There may be others between people 3 and 4 as well. The tags were originally going to be sold in April of 2004 (don't actually know if they were or not, but I do know they were removed from the car along with a chunk of the cowl - the pictures verify this), and the (a) shell with those tags reappeared on Ebay in October of 2007, and the "most original ever" Z28 reappeared around June or July of this year at Carlise, and then at this auction. Obviously person number 3 (or maybe someone between him and "Gary") is the one who affixed the tags to the new shell.

The seller/restorer of this car might get off the hook because of that sequence of events, but he's going to be out a ton of money if law enforcement seizes the car.

You don't have to dig up anything to determine if the car has its original shell or not. Every stamped peice of sheetmetal on a camaro contains a plant code and a date code on it. For example the firewall body mount cage has at least 3 stamps on them consisting of a letter and 2 digit number indicating the week of the year it was stamped out. All you need to do is find a few and compare it to the build time of the car. If theres a big difference in dates then the parts of the shell don't belong with the tags.

704EVER

10-24-2008, 07:03 AM

Again, I agree with what BJ is, just a platform for sellers and buyers. I would also agree that many a car has crossed the block at BJ, as less than advertised. What makes this case/car so special is who the buyer is. If anyone doesn't think special treatment won't be paid here by the house is probably where we disagree. I'm not condoning what happened here by any means, I'm just saying, I think this will all go away with everyone happy in a convenient way and we'll hear very little about it in the future. Bad press in these difficult economic times are not good for any business. Scottsdale is right around the corner. With the other auction houses gaining ground with a reserve auction venue and consignments on top notch cars being paramount, I can see BJ wanting this to go away. All I'm saying is that they are in a bad position here, and have a lot to lose, as far as the credibility of their consignments and reputation. This isn't about a 125K, this is about millions.

camarojoe

10-24-2008, 07:04 AM

Just a guess, but I'd bet that a BUNCH of the street rods and custom cars that pass through BJ have VINs that aren't original to the actual car rolling across the block if anyone were actually to look into it.

chevelleheart

10-24-2008, 07:25 AM

Not to change the topic but is there any more discussion's on the red LS6 Chevelle Convertible that went across the block on Sat night that Ron also purchased? Just curious?

Bill Pritchard

10-24-2008, 07:30 AM

I have seen no other substantial discussion either here or on the Chevelle website. The Chevelle's issues pale in comparison to the Camaro, so it's probably nothing but an afterthought at this point.

PeteLeathersac

10-24-2008, 07:30 AM

Regardless of who's going to take a fall here, BJ may not be all innocent even if they have written provisions in their auction agreements to escape legal problems?.
If failing to do their utmost to protect both buyers and sellers of cars that may have a shady history has been their choice, poor attendance and sales at future BJ auctions could result in a worse penalty...a financial one?.

Any auction house who has true concerns for their buyers and sellers should post Vins of upcoming cars w/ ample time ahead of the auction date to allow the collector car community to gather any relevant facts together and present them before the car crosses the block..
If any auction house chooses not to do this and/or heed any serious concerns raised before sale, that's their choice and they may have to live w/ the long term resulting financial losses if the facts come out after the sale?.

Obviously no one should condemn Jerry M. without his report being displayed..
He's not a stupid man and his concerns for this specific car also disclaimer for circumstances such as this on any car he inspects is most likey included in his report?.

If this case is as clear cut as Les Q. above seems to feel, it could be the beginning of many more to come?.
With plenty of similar situations sitting in garages all over the world there's no doubt lots of people sitting on the edge of their seats watching what unfolds here?.
Best of luck to any true innocents that get caught up in the crossfire!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

chevelleheart

10-24-2008, 08:17 AM

True Bill P. ! I was wondering if anyone else had seen the car , paperwork etc as I was having doubt's about my impressions on the car and if anyone knew for sure ,...I'd appreciate a private email with there thoughts ??( [email protected])

TDW

10-24-2008, 03:23 PM

I read on the Team Camaro site that the report from MacNeish is 3 pages long. It isn't his job to tear the car apart to look at all the date stamps and the hidden VIN stamps. He does a visual inspection of the TT, VIN plate and major components. It would be impossible for him to disect every car he inspects. If the car in question had a factory issued TT,VIN plate, rivets in the TT are genuine and there is no evidence of tampering to the firewall, should MacNeish go any farther in looking for a rebody? Or anything for that matter? I don't see how the "Expert got fooled" is the right statement to make here.

SD 396

10-24-2008, 04:42 PM

Maybe the "experts" or appraisers for that matter need to have a disclaimer in their report to indemnify them from verification of original body, block, trans, etc. and potential legal proceedings. What more can they do than verify what they can see on the surface? Sure you can get a scope in some hidden places but some changes are very difficult if not impossible to detect. Where does this leave the uneducated buyer or owner? I research all the cars I buy before hand but I am sure that an owner isn't going to let me rip the whole car apart before I buy it.

Dayton

10-24-2008, 06:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

BJ is just the vehicle to sell the car...that's all. They are in business to offer a place to sell a car...that's it...end of story.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.
Several years ago, Tiffanys was pissed that so much fake "Tiffanys" jewelry was being sold on Ebay. Tiffanys did a little undercover work and purchased several thousand so called REAL pieces of Tiffanys jewelry off eBay. Over 70% were fake. Tiffanys sued eBay claiming eBay facilatated counterfeiting. In July this year, A Federal judge ruled in favor of eBay. I don't see much difference between.

kwhizz

10-24-2008, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I read on the Team Camaro site that the report from MacNeish is 3 pages long. It isn't his job to tear the car apart to look at all the date stamps and the hidden VIN stamps. He does a visual inspection of the TT, VIN plate and major components. It would be impossible for him to disect every car he inspects. If the car in question had a factory issued TT,VIN plate, rivets in the TT are genuine and there is no evidence of tampering to the firewall, should MacNeish go any farther in looking for a rebody? Or anything for that matter? I don't see how the "Expert got fooled" is the right statement to make here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think about it.........If Jerry was to really "Certify" beyond any doubt..........Is that really possible.........He's brought a "Paper Trail" Numbers car.....Would the owner allow someone to take the car down to the point of removing the paint and Primer to check for any apparent deceptive metal working in the Hidden Vin Area's.........I don't think so....So......In that Case, How is anything validated anymore.........I heard of a ZL-1 that is being rebodied where the restorer (Owner???) found an old timer who came in to Hammer Weld the hidden vin #'s in to be non detectable.........Again.....The "Publically" known real cars have probably the Best Validation.......The Cars that fall out of the Sky after all these years are the ones that "Really" need to be looked at Closer.....
Are they what they are.........Or......What the Owner wants them to be.........With the Legal Exposure as it is today......Who could or would ever "Validate" 100% that it is anything other than what the Car "Appears" to be....

Just my $.02

Ken
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Hylton

10-24-2008, 07:04 PM

I'm so tired of all this sh!t....

wagonman

10-24-2008, 07:15 PM

this is the "[censored]"i have been saying would happen!!!!!

told you all so!!!

but you guys killed the messenger!!!!

Hylton

10-24-2008, 07:21 PM

I think we've heard how you've tried to save all of us a few times now Wagonman!

Mark_C

10-24-2008, 07:33 PM

Only problem this time is someone used real tags and paperwork to fake a car, as opposed to fake paperwork and tags.

PeteLeathersac

10-24-2008, 07:44 PM

Why does the Wagonmeister think his flip-flop to the warning angle is new information to anyone here?.

What does 67rscoupe think?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

GRB

10-24-2008, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Didnt the White ZL1 Reggie owned that sold for around 800k a couple years ago get un-done after they found out it wasnt the original motor? Pretty sure Ron bought that car too. Barrett can undo a deal if its not represented true and the seller pays both commisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did they ever find out who did the switch-a-roo?? Is there more info on this transaction somewhere? I'd love to read it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Hylton

10-24-2008, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Only problem this time is someone used real tags and paperwork to fake a car, as opposed to fake paperwork and tags.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like that Orange 427 car a few years back!

al8apex

10-24-2008, 08:42 PM

Post removed at the request of the poster, al8apex

1969z280

10-24-2008, 09:37 PM

Is he the same guy who did the 2 Matching Cortez Silver Z/28s at Barrett last year? There was a thread here showing some terrible cowl tags and I believe someone even over-heard some discussion on the plane.

wagonman

10-24-2008, 10:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why does the Wagonmeister think his flip-flop to the warning angle is new information to anyone here?.

What does 67rscoupe think?

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ME!

BUT LEMME ASK HIM,OH HE THINKS THE SAME THING"

YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
~

[/ QUOTE ]

Kim_Howie

10-25-2008, 12:47 AM

Lock her up Dano!!!Enough is enough!!

PeteLeathersac

10-25-2008, 03:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why does the Wagonmeister think his flip-flop to the warning angle is new information to anyone here?.

What does 67rscoupe think?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
~ Pete

----------------------------

THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ME!

BUT LEMME ASK HIM,OH HE THINKS THE SAME THING"

YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I sure hope Frank doesn't feel the same way...he was the coolest of the three Wagoneers!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
~ Pete

wagonman

10-25-2008, 03:25 AM

Pete,

look me up anytime!

or call me if you have anything to say to me!
i pm'd you my number!!!

i said absolutely nothing to you!

so we need to talk man to man!

wagonman

10-25-2008, 04:39 AM

Once again I post something and immediately I’m under attack.

Some of you really do need to get a life.

I’m sure it’s the desensitized nature of a net forum since I never seem to have these face to face comments in person at any car show.

Oh look Tom Clary.I;m a paid member here!

Do I get any type of help from you here?

PS…
If you’re insinuating that the three usernames are the same person, then I’m afraid you’re in need of getting your facts straight!

x Baldwin Motion

10-25-2008, 05:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Once again I post something ( "told you all so!!!" )and immediately I’m under attack."

John, get some more skin. That is NOT an attack!! I am sure most are very grateful for your lesson. And the reminder. Again. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Canada George

10-25-2008, 05:02 AM

“YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!!” http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
“i said absolutely nothing to you!” http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
“Do I get any type of help from you here?” http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Oh no, here it comes again… one of the web’s most intelligent and respectful discussion forums (IMHO), reduced to YouTube level idiocy.

Charley Lillard

10-25-2008, 05:06 AM

Wagonmaster. You keep harping like you have been warning us all along and we never heard of people faking paperwork. You act like the sole reason to build your car was to educate people but in reality 99% of the people that saw your car at a show were led to believe it was the real thing because unless they talked to you and asked you about it, they simply walked off thinking it was a rare car. Now in hindsight you are acting like the car was built to educate people when in fact it misled many people. Then you came to this site and ended up really pissing people off when they find out you are posting under a second name hyping your own car. You have brought most of this on yourself. Give it a rest.

Mr70

10-25-2008, 05:09 AM

Bingo..

wagonman

10-25-2008, 05:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
“YOUR A PUNK AYE!!!!!!” http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
“i said absolutely nothing to you!” http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
“Do I get any type of help from you here?” http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Oh no, here it comes again… one of the web’s most

intelligent and respectful discussion forums (IMHO), reduced to YouTube level idiocy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must admit I do agree!

I get on this forum, and immediately my intellectual capabilities are reduced to Jerry Springer levels!!

You guys bring out the best in me

wagonman

10-25-2008, 05:14 AM

Lock me out charley!!!!!!!!!!!!

RamAirDave

10-25-2008, 05:18 AM

Canada George

10-25-2008, 05:20 AM

wagonman,

Let me UP your intellectual capability a little…

There’s no need to be locked out if you just STOP posting! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

SuperNovaSS

10-25-2008, 05:21 AM

Lock you out? Are you an addict that can't stop on your own? Or is it that you want to be locked out so you can start a new name? Thanks for speaking up Charley, you hit the nail on the head. I have seen Wagonman's Camaro in person and there is no denying it is gorgeous. He proved that a car could be faked, that does not take a saint and rarely does.

Jason http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Jason

COPO 70 RS/Z28

10-25-2008, 05:26 AM

I can just feel the http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/love013.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/love018.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org)

x Baldwin Motion

10-25-2008, 05:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wagonman,

Let me UP your intellectual capability a little…

There’s no need to be locked out if you just STOP posting! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't understand...........

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/YenkoAddict.jpg

off the wagon? really no pun intended...

Hylton

10-25-2008, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wagonmaster. You keep harping like you have been warning us all along and we never heard of people faking paperwork. You act like the sole reason to build your car was to educate people but in reality 99% of the people that saw your car at a show were led to believe it was the real thing because unless they talked to you and asked you about it, they simply walked off thinking it was a rare car. Now in hindsight you are acting like the car was built to educate people when in fact it misled many people. Then you came to this site and ended up really pissing people off when they find out you are posting under a second name hyping your own car. You have brought most of this on yourself. Give it a rest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wagonman - This is really the issue. Most regulars here are VERY well educated in fraud and have been on top of what has been going on even before you decided to build your car. You seem intent on always stating that YOU are the reason we are all now knowledgeable on the issue. This may come across to some board members as an insult to them simply because of the length of time they have been in this hobby. It also makes you look bad because it shows you have not done any homework on this site or other sites to see what members have been talking about for years (search function is your freind http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif).

Another reason you may come across in a negative light is that many here have been burned by fraudulent misrepresentation and do not take kindly to someone who shows a car as something it is not. Now I am not saying that you should not have built your car but when you show it, state very clearly in your paperwork that the car is a clone. Like Charley said, if you have all this fake paperwork supporting your high quality clone in your display, what conclusion will the public come to? Obviously, they will think it's real and that goes against the grains here and other enthusiast sites.

It should be noted that you have been approached by members at car shows in the past and when they talked to you about the car, you never mentioned once that it was a fake. Not good in my books because this shows your true intent rather than the words you write here.

Just tone down on the "I saved Yenko.net members" thing as well as disclose in all of your paperwork that the car is a clone and we'll all be able to have a few brewskis together http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif.

BARNFOUND YENKO

10-25-2008, 07:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wagonman,

Let me UP your intellectual capability a little…

There’s no need to be locked out if you just STOP posting! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't understand...........

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/YenkoAddict.jpg

off the wagon? really no pun intended...

[/ QUOTE ]

Kids that read comic books do not get any alcohol, only kool-aid is being served today. Please lets act like adults and squash this thread/stop the name calling.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

ANDY M

10-25-2008, 11:52 PM

Thank you, Paul.
Now, can we go back to bashing BJ? Any word from them about this debacle?

JimM

10-26-2008, 05:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you, Paul.
Now, can we go back to bashing BJ? Any word from them about this debacle?

[/ QUOTE ]
Or any word from anyone else?
we were talking about a red car, right?

JimM

10-26-2008, 05:48 AM

or was it green?

al8apex

10-26-2008, 07:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Boy has this thread taken on a life of it's own !! Does anyone know who the builder of the Rally Green Camaro is ? I believe I saw him that day coming over to Ron to shake his hand. He's also up on stage during the selling of the car,...kinda a big guy , +/- 5-10 ,+/- 220 lbs ,in a black/white bowling shirt, blondish hair,.... It might be good to know which shop the car came from, just so any potential future buyer's have a bit of a heads up on what kind of work they do ??? Kinda like the Oregon Guy.......

[/ QUOTE ]

he has a website here:

http://independentcustoms.com/contents01.htm

here he is:

http://independentcustoms.com/kent1.htm

[/ QUOTE ]

unable to edit previous post for some reason ...

RamAirDave

10-26-2008, 07:39 AM

Interesting...

From: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.75

Here is some info that comes from a very reliable source.
The car did have a law enforcement vin#verifaction of all vin#s when it arrived at the resto shop before any work was done.
All previous owners were contacted prior to restoration including garys ex-wife.
Certification was done by Jerry without frontend on car and nothing was flagged.
There are over 1000 photos of the restoration.
There is a criminal investigation on-going requested by all parties involved.
There is registration that all parties have that proves the car was registered 2 -3 years after gary allegedly buried it.
clue, Pretty green car=money,greed,envy,jail

PeteLeathersac

10-26-2008, 10:49 AM

The facts preceeding the resto sound almost too amazing for a car that supposedly has no reason anyway?.
It'll be interesting to see where this all goes next?.

Sorry if I helped loosen the wheel on the Wagon..
No need to comment on the foolishness further to what's already been posted by others..
Thanks anyway for the 'friendly' PM Wagonmaster..

~ 'PUNK AYE' Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

njsteve

10-26-2008, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting...

From: http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=4432.75

Here is some info that comes from a very reliable source.
The car did have a law enforcement vin#verifaction of all vin#s when it arrived at the resto shop before any work was done.
All previous owners were contacted prior to restoration including garys ex-wife.
Certification was done by Jerry without frontend on car and nothing was flagged.
There are over 1000 photos of the restoration.
There is a criminal investigation on-going requested by all parties involved.
There is registration that all parties have that proves the car was registered 2 -3 years after gary allegedly buried it.
clue, Pretty green car=money,greed,envy,jail

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, real interesting since the poster "Rockstar" has no contact info and has a blocked email address. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

The fact that a car is "registered 2-3 years after Gary allegedly buired it" means nothing. That's just DMV paperwork. I know here in NJ you can sell a car and if you dont physically turn in the plates and cancel the registration, you will still get renewals every year...pay them and the car is still registered. Better yet, the QQ tags for classic cars are good forever with no renewals.