Barrett Jackson COPO Camaro [Archive] - Page 2

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TimG

01-21-2009, 09:01 PM

Restamps are part of the hobby at this point, they are prevalent in the entire Chevrolet line of classic cars. To restamp an engine for a 435 horse '67 is one thing, but to create a '67 435 horse car out of a Corvette that came with a lesser engine is scary. I know that the Corvette hobby is pretty tolerant of a restamp of an engine that was originally optioned in a car, but made up cars are another story.
I'll need to visit your facility on one of my trips to Chicago. You live in a beautiful part of the State.

JRSully

01-21-2009, 11:33 PM

If only Chevy had the paperwork ala PHS, one can dream

Stuart Adams

01-21-2009, 11:54 PM

The cars are probably saying " just drive me, hard or soft, keep me maintained, polish me once in a while, show me off sometimes, and take me to see my other car likes once in a while, but these humans with their egos and greed just take all of the fun out of it."

showyourauto

01-22-2009, 12:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The cars are probably saying " just drive me, hard or soft, keep me maintained, polish me once in a while, show me off sometimes, and take me to see my other car likes once in a while, but these humans with their egos and greed just take all of the fun out of it."

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

Verne_Frantz

01-22-2009, 06:46 AM

I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Steve Shauger

01-22-2009, 07:10 AM

iluv69s

01-22-2009, 03:44 PM

I dont think that one can blame the vette guys for the re-stamps of the Camaros. Chevelles,etc....The fact that they were first is a simple matter of economics. They were the first cars to be worth the effort ($$$) to obtain a restamped motor. The Camaros, Chevelles,etc. were just waiting for the values to go up.

At the Camaro Nationals in Carlisle, can a Camaro get a top award in the judging competition if the judges cannot tell it is a restamp?? If the restamp looks perfect??I suspect very few people admit that their motor is restamped even if they knew!!! So what other method is there for the judges?? If I put used or NOS parts on my car that are absolutely correct, I would not expect my car to be marked down...whether it is the block, heads, air cleaner or any other part...whether it is the original born-with parts or not!!

I have to stick up for the Vette guys here!! jmo

1railman

01-22-2009, 03:54 PM

It was human nature that spawned it; not the NCRS, they just addressed the inevidible. There will always be people who want their car as close to new as possible, that includes everything from chalk marks to original appearing motors. If ANY componant of car does not appear original it can't receive full credit.

1railman

01-22-2009, 04:13 PM

Yea, you sure can't blame the Corvette guys that there are more BE rears today than were ever made.

rich p

01-22-2009, 04:14 PM

It was funny when a dealer at Barratt said to me: Why would you bring that car here without stamping the motor before you bring it here !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif I was laughing pretty hard inside nowing this guy sells quite a bit at auctions...

I look at his cars a little different !!

m22mike

01-22-2009, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, you sure can't blame the Corvette guys that there are more BE rears today than were ever made.

[/ QUOTE ]

They might be stammped to look like a BE.....but try and find the goodies that go inside.
If it were a car I did there would be a bunce of photo's of the inside stuff.
Mike

Mike

Steve Shauger

01-22-2009, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont think that one can blame the vette guys for the re-stamps of the Camaros. Chevelles,etc....The fact that they were first is a simple matter of economics. They were the first cars to be worth the effort ($$$) to obtain a restamped motor. The Camaros, Chevelles,etc. were just waiting for the values to go up.

At the Camaro Nationals in Carlisle, can a Camaro get a top award in the judging competition if the judges cannot tell it is a restamp?? If the restamp looks perfect??I suspect very few people admit that their motor is restamped even if they knew!!! So what other method is there for the judges?? If I put used or NOS parts on my car that are absolutely correct, I would not expect my car to be marked down...whether it is the block, heads, air cleaner or any other part...whether it is the original born-with parts or not!!

I have to stick up for the Vette guys here!! jmo

[/ QUOTE ]

When judging, my opinion:
NOS parts should only be awarded full point, if they match what was used in the original production of the car. Many NOS parts are worthless because they do not represent factory production parts. In fact many reproduction parts are much more accuarte and I feel that they should receive higher point due to accuracy and represent "best available". When possible use I recommend recondition original parts.

Restamping of components permeates virtually all brands and models. Fingers can be pointed, but that resolves nothing except make certain groups defensive.

In many cases restamped components can be detected, but once the restampers learn what the judges look for they hone their craft. Unfortunately you have individual funding the restoration drivetrain companies(restamper) enabling them to perfect their craft of deception. So who is to blame... car owners, judging programs, dealers, hobbyist, take your pick.

Regarding the Camaro nationals when restamped components are detected, the car scores based on that fact and it is noted and documented. It (restamping of components)is in no way embraced or justified. Are restamps undetected of course, but like cars judges are not perfect.

DarrenX33

01-22-2009, 06:35 PM

So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

Steve Shauger

01-22-2009, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stamp it NOM http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Charley Lillard

01-22-2009, 06:45 PM

Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

TimG

01-22-2009, 06:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I happen to believe that NCRS IS, IS, IS, IS responsible for the state of the art regarding restamped engines. Their judging guidelines require a block to "appear" original for full credit. Full credit means a "top" award, and accordingly an increased value of the car. There's a BIG difference between an original car and one that "appears" original.
This practice started with Corvettes; not Camaros, Chevelles, COPOs, Impalas, Fords, Mopars or any other car. It would have happened sooner or later of course for other marques, but it was the Corvette "hobby" that spawned it.

Let's have a national judging competition for fake Mona Lisas. Call in all the art experts and have them judge everyone's "reproductions". If nothing can be observed that is any different than the original, then they all get a perfect score, are deserving of the same credit as the original and are worth a LOT more money. Afterall, they've been signed off to be as (or as good as) an original. (what's the difference in that judging venue?)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

And that's the WHOLE problem. There is NO difference between a clone that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award and an original car that earns an NCRS TOP FLIGHT award!. Both earned the same points.......the same award......the same stature......and the same increased value...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Ah, but there is a difference between an original car that earns a Top Flight award and a clone that earns a Top Flight award, a large financial difference that a knowledgeable buyer will probably be aware of. Those inside the hobby know or should do their homework to be sure they are buying a quality car with history. That's were the leg work comes in. If you buy a clone for an original car price, it is a shame. Did the buyer do the proper leg work to determine the vehicles history, did they buy a car with no paperwork?
Does any other organization have a program to send in a copy of the paperwork, trim tag, or pad stamp for a professional opinion of its originality? If cars are being made up to satisfy judging standards, people behind the scene are helping prevent these cars from being sold as such.
Do any other organizations publish books or put on seminars on how to verify original engine stamps or trim tags?
NCRS devised a standard for quality cars to achieve a Top Flight and I respect that standard. I've had 20 cars judged over the years at NCRS events. I don't think that NCRS should be criticized for devising a standard of what a good car is and then be criticized because individuals create cars to fall into those standards. Texas has one of the strongest NCRS Chapters in the Country and our Waco Regional is attended by some of the most knowledgeable NCRS judges and finest Corvettes in existence. Some cars have restamp motors, fake trim tags, add on sidepipes and other items to maximize their points. I venture to say that most completely made up cars are not able to achieve Top Flight status, if they do, they are surrounded by suspicion. Word gets out on these cars and they don't bring the premium dollars of a real car with real paperwork and real history. Today, any car you buy had best have some history or paperwork to back it up if it is a rare piece. Do your homework because there is lots junk out there that looks pretty.
If you attend a strong NCRS event with knowledgeable judges, you'd be surprised to see the disappointed owners when they find out their trim tag has been replaced or their engine is a definite restamp. NCRS does not like that stuff, it's bad for the organization and bad for the reputation of the cars.

Hylton

01-22-2009, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif The guy was smart!

I also agree with Verne with regard to the need to ensure that real, honest and true cars (whether they have been restored or not), need to be held in higher regard then a correct or well "engineered" car has. Judging criteria needs to be re-visited so that Top Flight and gold awards do not go out to BS cars.

There needs to be a class where forensic judging occurs. This means that all body panel dates and stamps are looked at and compared to a library of records and pictures on a computer (laptop) so that a clear conclusion can be made.

Points should be deducted for the re-application of the vin tag, trim tag, re-stamps, non-original body panels and interior parts and so on.....

COPO 70 RS/Z28

01-22-2009, 07:30 PM

After the auctions we have these discussions of things that happened and our views of them. I look at this as a problem for the longevity of the "hobby" because it erodes the confidence of those on the entry level. The continued interest in these cars is what keeps the hobby alive. If the hobbyist or customer base becomes or remains stagnant or actually shrinks the hobby will slowly die. How long will it be before the stress level of making the big purchase takes the enjoyment out of it. If it is the value/price issue that is of concern one can look at it as a decrease in demand and an increase in supply and we all know where that leads. People can continue to buy and sell cars to each other but down the road if the new blood does not come in because the new blood has no confidence in the product or is so intimidated that they don't want to get in where does that leave things.

If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

SBR

01-22-2009, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Years ago there was a 68 Z28 out here that had the block stamped "MO is at home".

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif The guy was smart!

I also agree with Verne with regard to the need to ensure that real, honest and true cars (whether they have been restored or not), need to be held in higher regard then a correct or well "engineered" car has. Judging criteria needs to be re-visited so that Top Flight and gold awards do not go out to BS cars.

There needs to be a class where forensic judging occurs. This means that all body panel dates and stamps are looked at and compared to a library of records and pictures on a computer (laptop) so that a clear conclusion can be made.

Points should be deducted for the re-application of the vin tag, trim tag, re-stamps, non-original body panels and interior parts and so on..... [/quote ]I know that I would welcome that type of judging to help separate the real from the fakes. This would help the hobby in the near and long term.

Stuart Adams

01-22-2009, 08:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After the auctions we have these discussions of things that happened and our views of them. I look at this as a problem for the longevity of the "hobby" because it erodes the confidence of those on the entry level. The continued interest in these cars is what keeps the hobby alive. If the hobbyist or customer base becomes or remains stagnant or actually shrinks the hobby will slowly die. How long will it be before the stress level of making the big purchase takes the enjoyment out of it. If it is the value/price issue that is of concern one can look at it as a decrease in demand and an increase in supply and we all know where that leads. People can continue to buy and sell cars to each other but down the road if the new blood does not come in because the new blood has no confidence in the product or is so intimidated that they don't want to get in where does that leave things.

If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, it's been happening for years and getting worse. Thank goodness for this site and a few dealers (like Colin)to kinda keep em somewhat in check. It really has taken out all the fun for me personally, and alot of the previous owners that you call about a certain car feel the same way, i.e Dr. Milton Kim. Sad in a way.

Verne_Frantz

01-22-2009, 08:40 PM

Tim,
I appreciate all the effort you and others have gone through to educate yourselves enough to detect restamps and other "cloning" methods. I can also appreciate the efforts by NCRS to educate more people so they can determine the real from the fake. Never the less, a Top Flight award is given to a car for its "appearance" of originality. Many people who are interested in purchasing a quailty Corvette are not as educated as you are. To them, the Top Flight award is their "proof" that they're getting a real car. I know that the NCRS has tried to make it clear that that is not what the award means, but unfortunately, the award does add a lot of value to a car, whether it's deserved or not.
As I said, the art of broaching and restamping would have been refined anyway over time, purely as a part of fraud and misrepresentation of high dollar cars, but the judging criteria of the NCRS (based on appearance of originality) literally opened the doors for the craft to be perfected. In plain language, what they're saying is that it's perfectly ok to have a "restoration motor" in your car, as long as we can't tell it's a fake. You get the same credit as a real one.
Personally, I not accept a restamped block as just another step in the restoration process. Afterall, the replacement engine has not been "restored"; its been altered to appear to be something it never was. As long as awards are bestowed to cars because they "appear" to be just like one Chevrolet might have built, the forgery business will flourish. The true history of those cars has been changed. Maybe its just me, but I'd rather see a car's history preserved rather than seeing a reproduction of something that might have been built. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

showyourauto

01-22-2009, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

Carl, you outline the dilemma quite well. So what is the best choice? Adopt a popular judging standard as appropriate for the market too? I think we can all agree that people want to know that the car they are buying is genuine, how original it is, and where it's been before they got it (it's history).

Sellers are afraid of being punished (or motivated by greed) to be transparently candid about these points for fear the investment they made will evaporate.

Buyers attempt to place a limit to what they are willing to spend based on price guides, public auction results, and opinions of other enthusiasts.

Price guides DO NOT consider: Pedigree, correctness, originality, or the uniqueness of an individual car.

Public Actions (by in large) DO NOT give candid view of a cars originality, correctness, or a the history of a car, that is all on the prospective buyer. Price is based on an engineered environment to determine value, not the merits of a car- accept on rare occasion (like Body#1 Serial#2 '57 Chevy that hammered for $150k at BJ). That car earned because of her pedigree and provenance.

So the task is left to judges and enthusiasts groups to set the standard, each for the marque they hold interest in. Very often, these favor whatever restoration businesses happen to be active in the group, standards are set by those restoration practices rather than the factory that produced them in the first place.

Right now, a new buyer sophomoricly demands all original drive train, all original sheet metal, concours detail, and unimpeachable documentation for EVERY car as proof of authenticity. Otherwise, the car considered is worthless.

This all or nothing approach to valuing these cars is out of step with how they were used throughout their life, and fuels the temptation for owners to falsify their cars in order to protect their investment. In the end, it damages an otherwise perfectly genuine cars and undermines confidence in the market. This attitude is exemplified by the acceptance of "undetectable" restamps as co-equal with original engines in the Corvette hobby.

To make certain a car is genuine, for each make their needs to be a standard set, based on what can determine if a car is "real".

With Mopars, you have an engine code right in the VIN that shows if a car is a true HEMI or not. Is an NOM in a Hemi car endanger the car's pedigree? NOPE. Were most likely raced within an inch of their existence within the first 5 years of their life (damn skippy), should they be impugned because they don't have an original motor? NO WAY.

The same exercise needs to be done for every other marque for each major component of the car, drive train, chassis, bodywork, and paperwork. A minimum standard set to determine authenticity. That universal standard applied uniquely to each marque will be the thing that gives new buyer entering the hobby the confidence they need to spend their money. The other factors, such as originality and history is a matter of personal preference for determining value.

Overall, judging standards need to be in unity with what the market finds acceptable and reward what is preferable. Somehow, honoring what can be proved to be authentic and reward remarkably original while not diminishing what is less than perfect- because no car is.

Hylton

01-22-2009, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the situation doesn't get addressed such that the newbies cant have a reasonable amount of confidence in the product, I'm afraid the hobby will die, or at least the part which revolves around original rare cars.

JMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

Carl, you outline the dilemma quite well. So what is the best choice? Adopt a popular judging standard as appropriate for the market too?

[/ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

showyourauto

01-22-2009, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Hylton

01-22-2009, 09:22 PM

StealthBird

01-22-2009, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd make a great commentator at Barrett-Jackson. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

Hylton

01-22-2009, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd make a great commentator at Barrett-Jackson. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the only people who would appreciate my comments if I were, would be you guys because I would have you all in stitches picking the cars apart while interviewing the sellers.

PeteLeathersac

01-22-2009, 09:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Time to get this hobby back into the hands of those that started it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen brother Hylton!.
Now tell us what you really think!.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
~ Pete

COPO 70 RS/Z28

01-22-2009, 09:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that, I just snorted coffee out my nose! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not in the car business. Never have been, never will be, the cars I own I will most likely never make a buck off of. I have loved cars since before I was able to drive. I stepped out of the "hobby" for a number of years because of financial issues.

I consider myself somewhat of a novice in the whole "numbers" thing, so my comments comes from the viewpoint of a plebe in this game the way it's played now. I understand that there are people here who do live in the car biz and those who don't, I don't have an ax to grind with anyone here.

That being said, I do have an interest in seeing the hobby preserved and prosper, why, because I need sources, services, parts..... and all those resources that allow me to enjoy my cars, one of the only hobbies that I have now.Some things I can do myself and feel very comfortable in the results, some things I cant, or do I have the capital to tool-up,equip for, or would it make sense to for the amount of use I would give them. So I am somewhat tied to that "market" such that if the market dies, so do a lot of the services and sources that "I" need for my enjoyment.

As a novice I'm sure my prospective is very different that most people here. That's all I'm offering is a view of how I feel when I look at what is going on and I see a situation that is going to keep people from coming aboard.

Maybe I'm completely missing the boat. But from my perspective the deal gets scarier every day.

.02

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Hylton

01-22-2009, 10:05 PM

The market of buying and selling these cars is different than the parts market. People will always be rebuilding these cars so the demand for parts will always be there. I don't know any repro part that no longer exists other than parts which have been replaced by better and more correct pieces.

There will always be a market for the real cars. Most of them get sold by word of mouth.

JRSully

01-23-2009, 12:44 AM

Darren, look for a CE 854 Block for your 70 L78 resto if your orig is gone.A warranty replacement block is the best you can do w/o the orig. SULLY

Hylton

01-23-2009, 02:33 AM

Here's a question for you judges - how would judge a car with the correct factory stamped/casted engine codes (cast date, assem date, eng. suffix) BUT the motor was declared by the owner as not the original one? The added tangent is that there is no VIN stamped on the block.

Gary L

01-23-2009, 07:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So what is the general thought on the proper way to restore a car that no longer has its original motor, trans or etc..

Do you just get a part that is cast correctly and ignore build stamps and VIN? Or just stamp the build stamp and leave the VIN off? Curious as I am building my motor now for my 70 L78.

[/ QUOTE ]

Darren, do what I did. Leave it alone. Leave both the original stamps. Maybe one day the original car to the engine will come along. It will be a dilema for me to give it up.

TimG

01-23-2009, 05:47 PM

Hylton, the car could easily Top Flight with that engine at an NCRS event providing the other areas of the car were Top Flight worthy. I believe that the point loss would be 37 out of 6,500 points, very small deduction. Even if the car had no stamping but the casting number and casting date were correct the point deduction would be minimal. Bloomington would "box" the car, or not allow it reveice a Gold under any conditions.

redline

01-23-2009, 06:44 PM

F**k the market. That's what got us into this mess - people restoring these cars to make a buck instead of restoring them because they love them.

I agree, the best way to enjoy a Muscle Car is to buy it with your little head.

Remember when you were 18 and you saw the car parked at the gas station for sale, whether it was a 454 Chevelle, Boss Mustang or a Six Pack Super Bee? It probably had a bit of rust on it, maybe even a quickie fresh paint, well worn seats, on its third or fourth motor and some shiny Cragars.

Did any of the Numbers matter??? Definitely not. I still try to buy them the same way, if they get me excited, I want!

PeteLeathersac

01-23-2009, 07:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

"...Here's a question for you judges - how would judge a car with the correct factory stamped/casted engine codes (cast date, assem date, eng. suffix) BUT the motor was declared by the owner as not the original one? The added tangent is that there is no VIN stamped on the block..."

Hylton, the car could easily Top Flight with that engine at an NCRS event providing the other areas of the car were Top Flight worthy. I believe that the point loss would be 37 out of 6,500 points, very small deduction. Even if the car had no stamping but the casting number and casting date were correct the point deduction would be minimal. Bloomington would "box" the car, or not allow it reveice a Gold under any conditions.

[/ QUOTE ]

To add to this hypothetical situation, if the owner did not declare the engine as non-original and the car wasn't previously known/recorded in any databases, would there be consideration of this being a factory mistake/missed Vin stamping?.
And if so would there still be point deductions at an NCRS event and Bloomington boxing the car?.

Also what point deductions differences are there for perfect in all respects 'restoration engines'...admitted and non-admitted as such w/ again the car not being previously known/recorded in any databases?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

--------------------
I like real cars best...the REAL real ones!

TimG

01-23-2009, 07:35 PM

NCRS will accept a car without its original engine, for example if an engine out of another '67 Corvette is installed, it could pass. One person brought a '66 Corvette with an engine out of a car about 100 cars later. No problem, Top Flight honors were awarded. The owner even wrote an article for The Restorer magazine and the title was "Top Flight without the original engine". I think NCRS believes that a car doesn't have to have an original engine to achieve top honors. A CE engine with a correct casting date and casting number would work great. This car would be at about 98% before any other judging began. It could still Top Flight with a 94% if is't a decent car.

CamarosRus

01-07-2010, 03:45 AM

As a recap man from East Moline,IL Mike M partnered with Tom R to buy the "clone" #27 ZL-1 at B/J 2009.

Mike M told me in Jan 09, after the auction and all that ensued that he was going to have local (to him) well known restorer check out misc firewall and cowl VIN numbers on #27.

Phone call that I made today 1/7/2010 my source claims that nothing was removed from car and no numbers were ever checked.
Mike M is no longer partner in car and I believe Tom R owns car outright.

I have digitized more old print pics. Below shows (2nd from top, all one color) Candy Red Camaro at Tacoma Dome Car Show. This is SAME car as Multi Colered drag car that I built from ZL-1 body, chassis, trim parts. This all red 69 Camaro is still in WA state and has a different VIN and title as #27 VIN tag and title was sold to "cloner" to build the current Fathom Green #27.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Misc%20Camaro%20pics/00000015.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Misc%20Camaro%20pics/00000020.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Misc%20Camaro%20pics/CSuperModProfile.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Misc%20Camaro%20pics/ZL1.jpg

ZL1#17

01-07-2010, 06:27 AM

Chuck, Have you talked to the guy who bought the race car you built with #27 VIN? I would like to know how this guy marketed a VIN plate with title?

CamarosRus

01-07-2010, 06:43 AM

I sold the multi colored C/SM drag car to Alan Martin Chevrolet, Bremerton,WA around 1982. Alan never did much if anything with the car. Several people in the same general area have owned the car after Alan Martin. I cant honestly say who ownes the (ALL Red repainted) car now. I also am not sure who exactly re-removed and sold the #27 VIN and sold it to cloner with title.