Motion on ebay

[Carleen]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Bald...=item2ebd97015f (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Baldwin-Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-SS-427-L-88-/200749285727?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2ebd97015f )

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTMzWDgwMA==/$(KGrHqFHJCEE92I-jrZOBPlLGpV!qw~~60_3.JPG

[Carleen]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTMzWDgwMA==/$(KGrHqFHJ!0E9p48uIFeBPlLGrQRUg~~60_3.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTMzWDgwMA==/$(KGrHqJHJB!E-EtEG7n)BPlLG1qk(Q~~60_3.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTMzWDgwMA==/$(KGrHqZHJCQE9qhGJ,sPBPlLG-P,7!~~60_3.JPG

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTMzWDgwMA==/$(KGrHqRHJDQE92PuY0KvBPlLHJI7KQ~~60_3.JPG

Looks like a clone to me

[Carleen]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTMzWDgwMA==/$(KGrHqNHJC8E922V2wBmBPlLGsvz+w~~60_3.JPG

Is this the same car that we discussed earlier?

[Carleen]

This Baldwin Camaro is finished in its original garnet red exterior with its original black deluxe interior. This car is documented with its original protecto plate from Baldwin Chevrolet. It has its original 427| L-88 engine, 512 block, actually dated correct for the car. It is powered by an original Holley NASCAR 950 CFM 3 BBL carb which sits on top of its original 427 X Edelbrock aluminum intake. The aluminum heads (074) are full race prepped and the engine produces well in excess of 550hp. The engine is standard bore. Power is delivered thru its M-22 rockcrusher transmission and ends up on the ground thru its factory, original BE coded rear end (4.11 on its pop) which now holds 4:56 gears. Exhaust exits thru its original side pipe set up which is all polished stainless steel, starting at the headers and all the way back. This car has power steering, power front disc brakes, tilt wheel, full gauge pkg with console and a center mounted clock. This car is also a factory radio delete car. The transmission has a Hurst reverse lock out set up, a 140 mph speedometer, and an 8000 RPM tach. In the trunk are still mounted its twin Dupree electric fuel pumps and on the lower rear fenders you can see the outlets for the individually adjustable air shocks. The dash has a Holley pull choke for its carb. Besides its Lakewood traction bars, it also has Cure ride shocks in the front. The car has many, many original Motion parts that are too many to list. The paint scheme is typical motion for the period. This is a real Baldwin Camaro and was "motionized" sometime in its early history, either by its original owner or one after that. This car is as original as any (documented by Joel Rosen himself) Camaro you will find. If you are looking for a real Baldwin Camaro and like Motion and Joel Rosen's efforts to produce the finest street or track cars of the era, this is what you want. There are very few original Camaros out there that can say they are original Baldwin Camaros. Her is your chance for one. Please feel free to ask questions. Please don't call unless you are a serious buyer. This is a serious car for a serious buyer. All serious cash offers will be considered and trades with cash will be considered.



Additional pictures are available upon request. An inspection can be arranged by appointment only. If the car needs to be shipped, we will ensure the car is available for the transporter's schedule. Reasonable offers will be considered. If you have questions or want to discuss the car, contact Randy at 612-619-2252.

[Carleen]

Here it is http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=465094&page=1

[Carleen]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/47576_186998471316033_111058455576702_750348_20613 2_n.jpg

[Carleen]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/163834_186998424649371_111058455576702_750347_5168 898_n.jpg

[Atuckman]

wonder what the documentation by Joel is...

[COPO]

This car was discussed before and clearly the trim tag is a repo.

[PeteLeathersac]

Subject VIN 124379N605956
Less the BS and bling, it'd be cool!

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Jay_chevelless]

Is this not a real motion car?

[mockingbird812]

If you read Carleen's link to the car show I attended last fall, you will see some of the issues raised.

[Carleen]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=465094&amp;page=1

[LeeP]

Thanks for the reference to the discussion. I am now very confused because of the description in the auction and then the discussion on the car. Hopefully the new buyer will join this site and if it is real or not clarify with the seller the correct details on this car. From the auction I get it was an original Motion 427 car and should sell for big bucks but I am an Olds guy and pretty dumb about these cool cars. Lee

[jrinehart]

http://www.bigrsmusclecars.com/cars/1969-baldwin-chevrolet-camaro-rs-ss-427-l-88-125000

This is interesting. I know the people who worked on this car. If this guy is really trying to sell the car,why not take better pictures of the car instead of copying and pasting from a Facebook page. Maybe a scam?? I talked with the shop and from what I understood the car was not certified by Rosen. I think I will just sit back and munch on popcorn and watch the show.......

[Serbigblock]

I spoke to the owner a few years back when it was for sale in florida. He told me at that time he was unable to get the car documented by Rosen. During that time period the car was sporting a tri-power carb setup on it. Also if I remember correctly it had some doc's placing it at Baldwin but no paperwork connecting it Motion.

[LeeP]

So if this car was beyond a doubt a real Motion car what would it sell for versus a weak documented or clone car. Just trying to get educated. Thanks Lee

[Carleen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Serbigblock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I spoke to the owner a few years back when it was for sale in florida. He told me at that time he was unable to get the car documented by Rosen. During that time period the car was sporting a tri-power carb setup on it. Also if I remember correctly it had some doc's placing it at Baldwin but no paperwork connecting it Motion. </div></div>

The paperwork he has is this

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/mockingbird812/image-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v697/mockingbird812/image-4.jpg

Isint this the right address:

Baldwin-Motion Performance
598 Sunrise Highway
Baldwin, Long Island, NY

[Carleen]

Ordering procedure
The way it worked was a car was ordered through either Baldwin Chevrolet or Motion Performance. The car was delivered through Baldwin Chevrolet. Then it was dropped off around the corner at Motion Performance where the modifications the customer desired were installed.

Definition of...
Like any other dealer, Baldwin Chevrolet sold cars to the public. These are NOT motion cars. Only cars that &quot;got the Motion Catalog thrown at it&quot; became Motion cars, and were invoiced as such. Again, there were Motion cars, and there were Phase III cars. Not every Motion car had the Phase III treatment.

[COPO]

POP is very likely a fake as well. Note the POP lists the rear as a COPO only &quot;BE&quot; rear, however, the engine code listed on the POP is a 396-375 HP auto and this car is a 4 speed and the trim tag is no doubt a reproduction. The address on the POP booklet is correct for Baldwin Chevrolet. Likely nothing Motion or Baldwin about it other than a nice looking replica. It is worth whatever a nice replica is worth, nothing more, but would certainly be fun to blast through the gears.

[Serbigblock]

DITTO!!! A wise man once told me if you forget they have it printed on the dollar bill. &quot; IN GOD WE TRUST&quot;. It is a great looking car but if I purchased it. I would get rid of the Motion stuff and make the drive train scream uncle. It is a 25-30K car all day long.

[LeeP]

Still does not educate me as to the value if it was beyond a doubt real and in that condition. Lee

[Carleen]

Havent seen any real BM Phase lll for sale recently.

My guess is same as a 69 Yenko Camaro or higher.

165K in 2002.

[Carleen]

PopularMechanics reports that the Original Baldwin-Motion Camaros are selling for $400,000 plus and Phase III Corvettes are going for more like $750,000.

[mockingbird812]

Popular Mechanics? <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif

[COPO]

Lee, I am only aware of 6 documented (by Joel Rosen) '69 Baldwin Motion Camaros, perhaps there are a couple of others hidden away, but I doubt there are even 10, so it is really hard to put a value on one. I have heard of a 69 BM Camaro changing hands at over $400K not too long ago, so Popular Mechanics could be on the mark for 1st gen BM Camaros, but normally BM Corvettes sell for a fair amount less than the 1st gen. BM Camaros, so think they are WAY off with their estimate. They rarely change hands in public, so tough to answer your question accurately.

[Serbigblock]

Ok here is my two cents. The 69 Motion ZLX camaro which was according to Joel the most expensive Motion Camaro ever built. This car is having trouble selling for 139K. It is listed on cars on line now. I get the whole thing about the Motion and Baldwin thing but the whole Baldwin delivered car does not ad 261k to a car in my book. The Phase III 69 GT baldwin Motion vette sold at auction in 2005, I think for 205K. In this bad market I think a real number is around 115-130K. Five years ago I think you could of gotten 200-225K at auction but this is not 2005 and since then other camaros have come up. Hope this helps and good luck.

[Serbigblock]

Oh ya, popular mechanics magazine. Is that the one that tells you how to build a UFO in your garage for $29.99????

[JoeC]

the 1969 Motion ZLX Camaro was not a 1969 build
was more like a mid 70's build

[Serbigblock]

Yes you are right. I think 1973 but when you are talking about performance it was the Monster Camaro. Just look at it, that is one cool car and it still has a stock interior.

[Hemicolt]

Ditto. For me that is the ultimate Motion Performance car.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Serbigblock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes you are right. I think 1973 but when you are talking about performance it was the Monster Camaro. Just look at it, that is one cool car and it still has a stock interior. </div></div>

[Carleen]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Serbigblock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes you are right. I think 1973 but when you are talking about performance it was the Monster Camaro. Just look at it, that is one cool car and it still has a stock interior. </div></div>

Joel Rosen did some ZL1/Canam engine Camaros in 1969. My guess is that these are hi dollar cars.

[Carleen]

69 Motion Converted ZLX Camaro


HISTORY An original Hugger Orange Z-28, converted in 1974 by Motion Performance to a Phase III Camaro “ZLX” drag car. This conversion at the time cost approximately $12,000.00, making it one of the “most expensive and extreme conversions done during that era” (quote from Joel Rosen). The “ZLX” conversion package included a dual-four barrel 427 cubic inch tunnel ram engine along with special ZLX open chamber aluminum heads, Liberty transmission, and several suspension modifications.

It is reputed to be one of only two ZLX Camaros ever built and the only one known to exist today. In addition, the car has only 735 original miles.

[Charley Lillard]

My old 80 Motion Camaro had receipts for over 23K as I recall.

http://www.yenko.net/features/2001/September2001.htm

[gigliotime]

My 1987 Motion Monte carlo has receipts for $31,000, I think the most expensive motion car ever done.

[LeeP]

Great discussion, thanks for rounding it out with some numbers. I can't afford a Motion car but it is good to know you can ask a question and the knowledge base is on this site. Lee

[Atuckman]

i guess this is what makes markets...

I think a car ordered new with Motion modifications is worth a real premium over a catalog car (do-it-yourself) or one that received modifications by Motion at a later stage in life.

Is the car a survivor? newly restored? older/poor restoration
Is the exterior and paint radical or subtle?
Do you prefer sports cars or muscle cars?

I think its clear that the more radical drivetrain modified cars that joel built will carry higher values and documentation/history will clearly impact value.

BM has gained more recognition in the last several years due to Marty's book, articles in the NY Times, and repeated collaboration and representation at the MCACN. Despite a softer market, the last BM that sold to my knowledge was the survivor 68 camaro...the value was well deserved and impressive. Both buyer and seller should be happy.

Some of the cars mentioned in this thread may not be the best examples or indicative of value. As charlie mentioned, few cars have traded publically thru auction and those arent necessarily the best examples of their kind.

[Serbigblock]

Ok I have one last cent to add. I agree with all of the above stated however, I believe the factor of emotions also plays a major impact in the private trading. A quick story, a friend receives a call from his Marina that a gentlemen has approached them and he wants to purchase his boat but the thing is his boat is not for sale. So he does the right thing and he contacts the man to be polite. Well after a very short conversation my friend no longer had a boat to put in his slip. Now, a true and accurate market value for the boat. I do not think so. Seller and Buyer happy, YES! Seller very very happy.

[Jack_Tar]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Atuckman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i guess this is what makes markets...

I think a car ordered new with Motion modifications is worth a real premium over a catalog car (do-it-yourself) or one that received modifications by Motion at a later stage in life.

</div></div>

That was what I was thinking as I was reading through this thread. The modifications done to &quot;used&quot; cars will not carry the same value as a car that was ordered new with the Motion work done.

[Hemicolt]

I can understand that. I have a customer who is a performance car collector. But unless it came off the assembly line at GM, he places no value on it.
He has actually said that Yenko, Motion, etc. mean nothing to him from a collector standpoint...lol
Doesn't mean he is right or wrong, just means that some things aren't going to be valuable to others.

[olredalert]

----I dont think the ZLX Camaro is a good representative of Motion cars value wise. Personally, I think its a bit too radical. I watched it catch fire at Mecum years ago (no major damage).Other than race cars with history, I think collectors are far more interested in cars that can be driven, even if they dont get driven often. The radical build of the ZLX precludes even so much as a trip around the block for the most part and collectors may back away from that particular Motion Camaro for that reason........Bill S

[Serbigblock]

Ok there is only one way to solve this debate. Someone has to sell their Baldwin Motion Camaro on the auction block. So who is going to take one for the Team. Come on don't be shy. Step up to the plate. Charlie how about you? I know you have a few beautiful BM cars.

[Carleen]

I doubt that anyone sell there maybe motion under 200K.
I would not

[Charley Lillard]

RichP has a 71 Baldwin Motion Camaro for sale for 185K. Nobody has stepped up yet.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&amp;Number=454830&amp;page=1

[Charley Lillard]

And the one owner low mile 68 brought alot more than that but it is a special car, probably one of the very best.

[Carleen]

Charley we are talking about 69

[Carleen]

This one?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_6NbRkTM7oUc/S8ooUhIw1XI/AAAAAAAAAvc/8rDDW-dPXzg/s1600/3-4flatsmall.jpg

[owners2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">And the one owner low mile 68 brought alot more than that but it is a special car, probably one of the very best. </div></div> Don't tell me he sold it. That car is awesome.....

[Charley Lillard]

Yes Lud sold it to a member. It was nice having the orig. owner get rewarded for taking such good care of his car. Great car and owner.

[mockingbird812]

One of my favorite BM cars. Lud is a cool dude with great stories. Glad to see him have a nice pay-off after all of these years. <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif

[m19gale]

out of curiosity.. it was mentioned there are around 6, documented 69 BM camaros... I can think of 5 quickly... Kevin's yellow and blue, the ZLX, the Green/White and the Black/Red... what one am i missing and are there any others people can recall.

[Atuckman]

not sure if charlie included the ZLX in his group of six

there are three yellow/black known 69 camaros. one is kevins. one is being restored by a member and another one was on the dreamcar garage (legendary) that has an LS7.

they are still out there...

[owners2]

That car is Awesome. Wish I had bunches of money , that car is one of my favorites.

[owners2]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes Lud sold it to a member. It was nice having the orig. owner get rewarded for taking such good care of his car. Great car and owner. </div></div> I mean this is my favorite.

[Serbigblock]

Ok back to the car on ebay. Has anyone seen the doc's from Rosen? Really 83K with an hour to go. The last owner was having trouble getting 30K.

[x Baldwin Motion]

seller says only doc is bogus PoP

[Hemicolt]

It's called having your buddies bump up the price or shil bidding.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Serbigblock</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok back to the car on ebay. Has anyone seen the doc's from Rosen? Really 83K with an hour to go. The last owner was having trouble getting 30K. </div></div>

[TimG]

It sounds like there are issues, but I really like that car.