CE replacement block or date code correct block

[Ngtflyr]

We have a customer with a 67 BB Pace 4spd pace car undergoing restoration. He knows the owner history and (I believe) the second owner had the block replaced at the dealership. The replacement motor is also long gone, the car was raced extensively. We already have a CE block that is in the right timeframe for the car. Now the owner has been cruising the internet and has seen the following link in which Jerry MacNeish says there is no intrinsic value to a CE block without paperwork for that specific block.

CRG CE discussion (http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=6060.0%3ball)

Here is the owners question:

As we discussed this afternoon-- Here is the link I mentioned, on the CRG website, where Jerry McNeish was weighing in with his opinion on CE blocks vs. other alternatives (see reply #6). This discussion dates back to 2009, maybe that matters somehow? anyway please check this out and let me know what you think...


IMHO a CE block without paperwork is better than a date code correct blank/decked block. I also believe it is better than a restamped date code correct block.

I am wondering what your opinion on this matter is. Thanks

[XXXGoldL34M20]

<span style="color: #3333FF">&quot;I'll put my &quot;Legends&quot; concours judging hat on and give my best professional opinoin. If you want to have the most technically correct car if the OEM engine is gone, then a dated correct original engine is the best way to increase the value of the car and authenticity of the car. Next would be to install a restoration block, this is one that the casting date lines up with the car with restamped engine assembly numbers and vin numbers.

CE blocks do not have any value from a restoration stand point unless you have the dealer installed paperwork that came with the car. Having a CE block in a restored Z28 or SS, COPO, etc will net you very little points. Only thing worse than a CE block would be an over the counter Target motor from GM.

Hope this helps,

Jerry&quot;
</span>

I am going to agree with Jerry on this one,I rather have a correct dated block than a CE block. Today it just seems like it is the &quot;IN&quot; thing to do right now by putting in these CE blocks and saying that the original motor was blown and replaced by a CE block, but it does not mean squat without the proove. I personally would not pay extra money for a car with a CE block and i do not think it is any better than a date code correct block. A lot of restorers buy Starters/Alternators/Carbs/Smog/Distributor Etc... with date code correct components, why not do the same with a Block. Just my opinion.

[m22mike]

Dave
Aside from &quot;Points Judging&quot; I agree with your take on using the CE block, it's real and could have been. At this point in time I do not put any value on a restoration block. I think most are tired of seeing and hearing off them.
I have a closely dated JH block in my Black Camaro, that is another option, but as far a adding value, who know's.
Don't over think it, just use the CE. JMO

Mike

[Stefano]

Some well known judging venues have lead people to alter VINs and trim tags on respective components in order to comply to judging standards.

I have never thought that this was the &quot;best&quot; way to handle such a situation, regardless of the value effect it has on a particular vehicle.

There are many well known cars which have scored well at National events which have had these components stamped or altered.

My opinion is that properly restored vehicles, even with out their original drive trains, should still have a chance to score well and NOT be out of contention for a &quot;High&quot; level award, just because of this scenario.

This is my opinion, best to worst for these situations.

1)Born with numbers matching drive trains. This is the best thing to have, that which originally came from the manufacturer, in that particular vehicle.

Some do not understand the term, but it seems very clear and concise to me.

2) CE Replacement, with dealer paperwork. If there is proof that a CE replacement engine was installed by a dealership because it needed to be replaced then that is the next best thing to having the original born with engine, when it is NOT available.

3) If a documented CE is not available then and original engine from another like kind vehicle built during the same time line, would be the next best thing. VIN and date coded correct, original, but from a different, yet similar vehicle.

4) Date coded correct with the correct suffix code also, but NO VIN. Some blocks were not stamped with VINs for various reasons and some were stamped and built as complete warranty replacement assemblies.

5) A CE or factory replacement engine with correct dates.

6) A correct date coded and casting number block with a blank deck/pad.

7) A correct date code and casting number block with an incorrect suffix or pad stamp, but built to correct standards of the car.

8) A properly date coded and re stamped &quot;restoration&quot; block.

9) A correct casting number and size, but NOT date coded correct.

10) A correct style engine but not numbers matching or date coded correct.

11) Just any engine, Like an LS engine in a first gen Z28. That should be a maximum deduction in points for concours correct judging.

[Salvatore]

I have a correct date coded block in my 1969 Z/28. At least the engine block came from the same time frame as my car did so they are the same age. A CE block could be dated 70-71 for a 1969 car. I would rather have the same date codes as the car itself. JMO though!

[luzl78]

Dave, is the pace car the one owned by Tyler?

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: [email protected]</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have a correct date coded block in my 1969 Z/28. At least the engine block came from the same time frame as my car did so they are the same age. A CE block could be dated 70-71 for a 1969 car. I would rather have the same date codes as the car itself. JMO though! </div></div>

So if your Z28 had a dealer invoice and owner history stating/ showing that a CE replacement block dated 1970 was installed in 1970 under GMs warranty at a Chevy dealership, you would have pulled that engine for a date code correct one?

[Verne_Frantz]

I would agree with Stephano's list completely with one exception. I'd move #8 to #12. I don't agree with restampng anything in the name of restoration. I don't care what reasons or excuses the current owner makes, somewhere down the road it will become the &quot;original&quot;. The reason why real ones are worth more money is because they ARE real.
Just my opinion.

Verne <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif

[Ngtflyr]

Jeff,
No, it is owned by someone who has had the car since high school in the late 70's. It's been off the road since the mid 80's.

[69LM1]

Personally, I think that A &quot;CE&quot; block would be my preference to a date correct block if built correctly.

But I did'nt sleep in a holday inn last night <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif

Original numbers matching cars are really at the top. In many cases, the engine is what made the car special, IMO.

RichPern

Rich

[Salvatore]

No, that is not what I mean. If my car had a CE block I &quot;with paper&quot; I would much rather have that. But it don't. I would rather have a correct date coded block than just any CE block unless it was a replacement for my car.

[Stefano]

Then we are in agreement.

[Salvatore]

yea, I am with you! I bet alot people opted for an LT-1 short block if they blew their 302 up after 1970 or so.

[TimG]

I don't think CE blocks mean much of anything, even with paperwork. In theory, the CE block could be cast later than the original engine. I'd place more importance on finding a correctly casting dated block with nothing on the pad.

[Ngtflyr]

I would like to thank everyone for their insightful inputs, I appreciate it. I will pass it on to the customer so he can make up his mind on which way he wants to go.

[jasonL78]

My 68 L79 had the original motor replaced the day the new owner picked up the car. The casting on the block is actually september-67 and has the correct CE8####### on the engine pad so what category would my car fall into. I have spoke with the original owner and he told me the day he picked his new car up the motor went. He didn't have the paper work for the CE replacement. So is this considered just just a CE replacement with no paper work?????

[olredalert]

----My #1 choice after a &quot;born with&quot; engine would be an engine with nothing on the pad but a good casting date. How many original engine cars are out there with thier original engines that have been decked? I suspect more than a few! How can a judge make the determination that you dont have the original engine if the casting date is good and there are no #s? Of course there would be points lost due to the missing #s.....Bill S

[TimG]

A CE motor could have a correct casting date like your '68, L79. That's a nice situation. I don't know how it would judge out, but NCRS would reward that engine if it were a Corvette. Bloomington would &quot;box&quot; the car, even under the new rules.

[PeteLeathersac]

If Stefano's examples besides #8 are original broach/stampings, I'd choose this order.
1 - 4 - 2 - 3 - 6 - 5 - 7 - 9 - 10 - 11
#08 is missing as I wouldn't want the friggin' thing around (unless decked into a #6)

<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif
~ Pete

[Stefano]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: olredalert</div><div class="ubbcode-body">----My #1 choice after a &quot;born with&quot; engine would be an engine with nothing on the pad but a good casting date. How many original engine cars are out there with thier original engines that have been decked? I suspect more than a few! How can a judge make the determination that you dont have the original engine if the casting date is good and there are no #s? Of course there would be points lost due to the missing #s.....Bill S </div></div>

There are some other makes and models, other than Corvettes, which do not have VINs on the pad, but do have them in other places.

[olredalert]

----Stefano,,,A local appraiser on the northside of Detroit came to look at a 69 SS Chevelle that I knew something about and told the owner point blank that the car didnt have the original engine because there was no partial serial # on the pad, but the rest of the #s on the pad were correct. I knew him and called him up and told him to come back out and we would review his statement. When he got there I had the car up in the air and asked him to look by the starter. He said &quot;why?&quot;. He then proceeded to tell me that those serial #s had probably been stamped in there by some monkey. He now has the rest of the story.......Bill S

[Kurt S]

I have yet to see an 'all-model' appraiser who knows squat about Chevrolets and Camaros. I've seen lots of appraisals over the years and they say how nice the cars are and how great the docs are. But most of the docs are repros and the engine are restamps.

Other than Jerry, I haven't seen anyone doing knowledgeable Camaro appraisals. It's not easy - some of the restamps and fake paper look good.
No idea who I'd suggest to do a Nova or Chevelle.

[TDW]

Kurt, I had Jerry do an authentication of my 69 L78 Chevelle before I bought it. He wrote a full report, same as he does for the Camaro.

[WILMASBOYL78]

What we need is someone who can authenticate the &quot;real people&quot; from the &quot;fakes&quot;...if we eliminate the bad apples, the car issues will take care of themselves.

wilma <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/flag.gif

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No idea who I'd suggest to do a Nova or Chevelle. </div></div>

I have inspected and/or have on the schedule a total of over 15 1970 Chevelles from Penn to Cali since about August of last year and specialize in the LS6. I seriously make no money doing it and basically cover my cost but hope to gain new customers and save people from buying fake cars which is why I started doing it. 4 of the cars currently in our shop are due to these inspections. I have saved some buyers from buying some real junk and helped buyers locate and purchase several good and real cars so I am happy that I have been able to help people and grow our business.

There are numerous people on this board who could do qualified Nova inspections.

[Mk IV Muscle]

I second that motion Wilma! Would solve more than just the car issues.

[Xplantdad]

Rick is definitely the go to guy for Chevelles! <<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif