No Going Back now. 70 LT-1

[Lynn]

Decided to go all in.

Pulled the body off the frame yesterday. Even with my gantry crane at 12 feet high, I had to tie the harness in a knot to get enough clearance to roll the chassis out from under it. Guess I could have pulled the engine and gas tank before pulling the body. Just a lot easier to do it with the body off.

Built a jig from 3x3 3/16 angle iron. It set nicely on a couple small body dollies so I can roll it around. Seems the front nose has a lot of bounce to it, so I will likely add some extensions to the front for more support.

This car deserves to be done right. Born with engine (not in the car right now... that's another story) trans and rear end. Pretty certain the radiator is original, but I didn't see a tag. The only deviation from stock will be a set of adjustable Koni shocks and the GM part number headers and side pipes I got from Tony. BTW, if anyone is making a trip this next week or two from the Detroit area to Wisconsin, you could really help a brother out running the first leg of the relay to OK.

Manual brakes, and, like all early LT-1 models, no PS. My understanding is that a few were made with PS late in the model year, but the compromise is that they had to use a smaller oil pan.

[Lynn]

First question:

The gas tank has lots of surface rust. The inside is spotless. Is it worth restoring?
New ones can be had for less than $300.

With Konis and side pipes, I am obviously not planning on NCRS judging. But, I would still like it to look correct.

[napa68]

Looking good! I'd buy a new correct reproduction tank myself. You'll be happier setting the body on a completed chassis with the engine and tank in it.

[Ralph Spears]

Is the build sheet on the gas tank

[Too Many Projects]

Yep, you've made the commitment now. Happy to see I'm not alone in the "old guy doing a body off" restoration.
It will be worth it to have that access to do it right. :biggthumpup:
That's what I keep telling myself.

[Lynn]

No build sheet.

[cheveslakr]

That's going to be fun, fun, fun! You're asking about the tank......I had the exact same concern on my '66. It's tank cleaned up very nice and the inside looked great with a hint of corrosion in the neck but the tank was clean. I bought a new one after stewing on it. The new tank has the exact same embossed stamping and looks great. My car is halfway through the "complete" process and these same decisions have been attached to the brake rotors, rear spring, and brake calipers, which were upgraded to SS sometime in their lifetime. .... and I'm going torque thrusts, kyb shocks and considered hooker sidepipes but couldn't bring myself to cut the fenders. You're going to love this project.

[COPO]

Quite an ambitious undertaking with all the things you seem to have going on, but if you're up for it will be great to follow along.

[67since67]

With Konis and side pipes, I am obviously not planning on NCRS judging. But, I would still like it to look correct.

NCRS has a judging format for modified cars now. :biggthumpup:

I'd also replace the tank.

We'll be following along Lynn!

[67since67]

Happy to see I'm not alone in the "old guy doing a body off" restoration.


You and Lynn aren't alone Mitch...I'm on the home stretch of a "body off" and have another one waiting in the queue. Time in the shop keeps me young. - Bill W

[Too Many Projects]

You and Lynn aren't alone Mitch...I'm on the home stretch of a "body off" and have another one waiting in the queue. Time in the shop keeps me young. - Bill W
I have another waiting also. I tell myself the shop "exercises" keep me young too, but the body complains in the evenings...:tongue:

[Lynn]

You and Lynn aren't alone Mitch...I'm on the home stretch of a "body off" and have another one waiting in the queue. Time in the shop keeps me young. - Bill W

I agree Bill.

[Lynn]

I was shocked to learn that all of the body mount bushings are solid aluminum. I learned that before removing the body, so at least I wasn't surprosed.

Using a mic, they don't seem to be the same sizes. But.... most of them are corroded and swollen.

Were they all the same size or was there some procedure to determine how thick if a bushing to use at each mount? Forgive me if this is in the Assembly Manual. I have one, but it is down at the shop right now. Too lazy to go look.

Also, because the body was not built by Fischer, the Assy Manual is about four times the size of the Camaro AIM!!!!

Next question: is it simply anathema to use hard rubber bushings instead of aluminum? Seems like the aluminum would contribute to squeaks and rattles. You know, the Opel GT of the 60s and the C3 were designed by the same guy. I am shocked every time I drive them back to back how much more solid the Opel feels than the Corvette. That is sad.

[Oldss]

Lynn,
Would just the size and weight of the Corvette vs. the Opel alone make it feel that much more stiff?? Never driven an Opel, but the pic shows a big difference in size.

[LT1vette]

Were they all the same size or was there some procedure to determine how thick if a bushing to use at each mount? Forgive me if this is in the Assembly Manual. I have one, but it is down at the shop right now. Too lazy to go look.

Not an easy task you are getting yourself into. There are shims at each body mount. When you remove the body mount, DON"T lose the shims. Record and count each position. The same amount will have to go back in the same spot when you install the body back on the frame..

[Lynn]

I have them each marked. Some are incomplete.

When I hear "shims" I think of alignment shims. These are all like large thick washers; maybe 3/8 inch thick. Will post pics Sunday night. Have a work day at the Museum tomorrow.

[Lynn]

Lynn,
Would just the size and weight of the Corvette vs. the Opel alone make it feel that much more stiff?? Never driven an Opel, but the pic shows a big difference in size.

I am sure size has something to do with it. But the similarity is only in the skin. The Opel is unibody.

[LT1vette]

They are washers, not ALL the same thickness sometimes.

[markjohnson]

It’s always fascinated me that the 350/370 LT1 was $158 more expensive than the 454/390 LS5 motor. Chevrolet was certainly proud of that screaming little Mouse motor! It’s also interesting to note that Chevrolet waited until the 4th model year of the 350 SBC’s production before they finally stabbed a solid lifter camshaft in it along with that beautiful aluminum intake manifold & Holley, etc. to create a max effort small block Chevy. I may love the BBC (jokes aside!) but I also have a soft spot in my heart for LT1’s and their L79 little brothers.

[Lynn]

They are washers, not ALL the same thickness sometimes.

That is what I thought. I don't know how they determined what thickness went where. I am guessing the frames were pretty consistent but the bodies were not so consistent.

This frame has enough rust on it that I am not planning to repair it. I have a donor rust free frame that I have already stripped down. One little area needs attention, but zero rust. All the caged nuts (and the cages) are in great shape. Just need to chase threads.

Found this post on the Corvette forum (see post #5).
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c3-tech-performance/4462061-body-mount-shims.html

[Too Many Projects]

Wondering where a clean frame could have come from unless a totaled car ? Have you had the replacement frame checked for square and plumb on a frame rack ?

[big gear head]

Did the Vette frame get the VIN stamped on it like the Chevelle?

[Ralph Spears]

Yes,The Corvette had the VIN stamped .

[Lynn]

Wondering where a clean frame could have come from unless a totaled car ? Have you had the replacement frame checked for square and plumb on a frame rack ?

I thought the same thing. I don't have a frame rack, and i don't have a perfectly flat surface in my shop.

What I have done is check if for square every which way. All good. Anything that could be measured for square, I measured. I figured if it was in a wreck, SOMETHING would likely be out of square.

[Too Many Projects]

I thought the same thing. I don't have a frame rack, and i don't have a perfectly flat surface in my shop.

What I have done is check if for square every which way. All good. Anything that could be measured for square, I measured. I figured if it was in a wreck, SOMETHING would likely be out of square.
Sounds like it is good. I had the advantage of working at a frame shop and took all my frames there to be measured on a rack. Since he sold out 2 years ago and I don't work there anymore, the next car ('70 Chevelle) will need to go somewhere else and cost me money...and I know that one needs work...:tongue:

[Lynn]

.

Not an easy task you are getting yourself into. There are shims at each body mount. When you remove the body mount, DON"T lose the shims.

Yup. Eyes wide open. I knew is would be a challenge.

All the shims are simply thick aluminum washers on this car.

All are corroded to some extent, with some being worse, and several are in pieces. When aluminum corrodes, it swells.

Most of them still have remnants of paper tape that I assume helped hold them in place.

The ones that aren't swollen all mic at .385. The rest; who knows.

[Lynn]

Original nodular iron flywheel. Dated Dec. 69, which about right for my Feb 11 built car.

[Lynn]

Oops. Forgot flywheel pics.

[Lynn]

Original trans tag and stamps.
The first digit on the tag is a 3. Covered up with grease.

[Lynn]

Holley Carb. Apparently, the original was swapped out somewhere along the way.

This one looks pretty grimy, but it ran perfectly. No hesitation; no flat spots.

Has correct metering plates. 6333 & 4519.

As you can see, this one is dated fourth week of May, 1970, so not original to my Feb 11 car.

I was told by a member here that this is actually a very desirable date code. Same carb was used on 1970 Z/28 with manual trans, and on the Yenko Deuce.

I will probably send it off to Eric and have it restored. Will then ask a ridiculous amount of money for it, and hope to parlay that into purchasing a Dec 69 or Jan 70 carb.

[napa68]

Did you see this?

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3519243.m570.l1313&_nkw=4555+holley&_sacat=0

[Lynn]

I did Tim.

also say this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/256073993099?epid=1022981206&itmmeta=01HVGV9GD2TGZR4XD1A811VR4A&hash=item3b9f330b8b:g:aE8AAOSwuOZdy1IF&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAAwPv1aoqMYXNeZOh2PJxVMhF4FJqw% 2BXDtgAmCcrlhRZHejiEWhlsyIeXdNk7czAJVL2rSdyi0XkAun GS3fdkqLp4EvQThEgHaV0FvavIV4zHy%2BD4rzRWrSr5IrlSXu 4cb%2Bt9BfpGTHIG5ifK7iTQ1mQ9JjzRMIezxlsavRbSSD%2BN EgMu%2BMYb%2F3GMQlmbCL0dLTt5yprAe0XrNnAbaX4ZSFHxmi u0Kogab%2FjISg%2BJTK%2F2c6G6rTuEzx1XUjTn4a6q1%2BA% 3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR8qGppvcYw

Dated 2nd week of Dec 69. But no pictures of the actual carb.

He has two others at the same price, one April, and one May, 054, same date as mine.

I have reached out to him.

[olredalert]

----It seems like you could have someone machine some stainless shims (washers) and never have to worry about corrosion again!....Bill S

[Too Many Projects]

Holley Carb. Apparently, the original was swapped out somewhere along the way.

This one looks pretty grimy, but it ran perfectly. No hesitation; no flat spots.

Has correct metering plates. 6333 & 4519.

As you can see, this one is dated fourth week of May, 1970, so not original to my Feb 11 car.

I was told by a member here that this is actually a very desirable date code. Same carb was used on 1970 Z/28 with manual trans, and on the Yenko Deuce.

I will probably send it off to Eric and have it restored. Will then ask a ridiculous amount of money for it, and hope to parlay that into purchasing a Dec 69 or Jan 70 carb.


Seems in today's world of correct restoration prices, you could ask a ridiculous price as is for a survivor car, or let the new owner pay to restore it.

[Lynn]

Except it really isn't a survivor. The PO didn't do a great job when he had it painted in 1983. Overspray on everything. Besides, I already have the body off.

[Too Many Projects]

Except it really isn't a survivor. The PO didn't do a great job when he had it painted in 1983. Overspray on everything. Besides, I already have the body off.
The carburetor, Lynn, sell it as is to someone with a survivor car that needs that date.

[Lynn]

Doh!
I get it.

[Lynn]

Mitch said:

"Originally Posted by Too Many Projects View Post
Wondering where a clean frame could have come from unless a totaled car ? Have you had the replacement frame checked for square and plumb on a frame rack ?"

Hey Mitch: Given that I don't have a perfectly flat surface in my shop, are you aware of a procedure I could follow to insure my "new" frame isn't twisted? Even an 1/8 of an inch could cause me problems. I have it stripped down to nothing, and put casters on it so I could move it around the shop. Before I spend time and money making it look perfect, it would give me a lot of peace of mind to know it is true in every direction.

Any suggestions?

[napa68]

Lynn,

Do you have the 70 Chassis Service Manual? It has the frame datum in there. Regardless, you will need a perfectly level surface (preferably a surface plate or a frame machine)

Tim

[Too Many Projects]

You previously said you had measured diagonally in different locations and distances and they were all "square", which would be a very good indicator that the frame doesn't have a diamond. This can be done as a rolling chassis even without it being on a perfectly flat surface.
Twist, is the only other concern and that would need to be done on a flat surface and measured from that surface to the reference marks in Tim's pic of the side view.

Knowing it measures square, I would feel fairly comfortable that the frame doesn't have a twist, or if it does, it's so slight, that it isn't going to make a difference.
If you want a little assurance, I would block and shim the frame under the front and rear corners of the horizontal rails until they are level, front to back and side to side. Then you can use a level on the front horns, rear boxed enclosure and a short torpedo level on the front crossmember to judge if they are twisted.

No frame is perfect, hence the need to shim the body to fit the frame on a Corvette.
The ONLY way to know 100%, is to take it to a reputable frame shop, with a printout of the specs, and have them check it. You could do this after it is assembled to roller status and it may easier to transport that way.

[Lynn]

And that is the problem. I do not have a perfectly flat surface.
I have a couple of friends that have body shops. I may contact one of them to see if they can put it on a frame machine and check for twist.
Everything is square just measuring from the bottom. I have it upside down right now.

[Rsconv68]

Very nice. I helped a friend do his 72 in his garage. He had everything figured out except how to get the body back on. I called a friend with his tow truck and half the neighborhood was there taking bets whether it would work. We lowered it on the frame in less than 15 minutes, rolled it back in the garage, and crowned ourselves kings of the world.

[Lynn]

Usually more than one way to get things done.

[Kurt S]

You could use a laser level. They are cheap on Amazon. Set on one mount and measure at the other mounts....

[Lynn]

Kurt. Thanks a million for this suggestion. Bought one on Amazon for $55. Didn't take long to set up. Was able to check the spare frame for twist, and was pleasantly surprised. No measurable twist!!! That meant I could go ahead and start work on this baby.

Today was a good day. I got all the little bagged and tagged parts off my work benches, and into a large storage cabinet that I picked up at a surplus auction for $15.

I made some adapters to bolt the body jig to one of my body carts, so I could roll the body around. Got it off the lift and Sherri helped me roll it into a spare bay. I hate having the lift tied up. I won't be doing any body work (it needs almost nothing other than the headlight bar replaced) until I have the rolling chassis fully ready to go. I plan to use the old frame, and whatever rolling parts I don't use to make an extra roller so that i can bolt the body to it temporarily. That way I can roll it on my trailer and take it to a paint shop for final paint, and I DON'T have to worry about any overspray on my freshly restored chassis.

One of my pet peeves is the obligatory giant dent in the subframe on almost all c2 & C3 Corvettes (and first gen Camaros) caused by using a floor jack without a 2x6 on top of the jack. My spare frame is no exception. I repaired that dent 12 years ago before putting my Z back together. Took the same approach on this one, except that I welded in a couple supports and welded a long piece of steel to the underside of the plate after getting it back into the right shape. My reinforcement metal is almost double the thickness of the frame metal. My hope is that even if some moron jacks it up by the subframe, it won't bend again. You can see I got good penetration on the welds.
Not quite done yet, but got it roughed in. Sorry; forgot to take a "before" pic. Trust me; it was hideous.

Also; after working for 8 hours on Corvette stuff, I pulled the distributor in the Spitfire and ran the oil pump with a drill. Now has oil pressure when cranking!!! Will post in that thread.

[dykstra]

Pretty slick reinforcement!

[Lynn]

Have not posted on this thread in a while. Been handling some projects for Sherri. I did get to clean up each of the two frames I have here. I need some help from the Corvette experts.

I have sought help from the Judging Manual on this. No mention.

I know that the part number and date of assembly of the frame was stenciled on an outer rail. I found evidence; although hard to read.

I also know that, although the manual is SILENT on the VIN or partial VIN stamping on the frame, folks have posted pics of the VIN being stamped on top of the driver side frame rail just in front of the rear axle. I have two frames here, and NO EVIDENCE on either one of any VIN, whole or partial. One is pretty rusty, but not up on top. The other is not rusty at all, but still no evidence of a VIN.

Do you know if some of the 1970 models (restoring my 70 LT-1) could have been assembled without the VIN being stamped on the top of the frame?

Last question; again the Judging manual is silent on this. Both of these (1970) frames have some stampings on the underside. The rear reinforcing gussets on one of the frames are too rusty to see any stamps, at least before I get a chance to turn it over and clean it well. On the other, there are clearly stamps about the size of a quarter with -10 inside the circle. Pics attached. One frame has -30 in a circle on the driver side of the cross member; the other has -70. The judging manual mentions green crayon marks of something like "1" "2" or "3" to indicate how many shims need to go above the aluminum body mount bushing. But it says nothing about "minus" numbers with a circle around them.
The -70 stamp is not at deep as the others, but obviously done with the same process.

As usual, thanks for any help.

[Lynn]

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

[napa68]

Lynn,

I suspect the reason NCRS does not address the questions at hand, is due to the fact they do not want to give counterfeiters the blueprints. My 70 is in the trailer ready to travel this week. If you can wait until mid next week, I can get my car on the hoist and get the LR wheel off to take some pics and measurements.

Items such as stampings, trim tags, VIN tags, etc., are examples that the NCRS and other groups (judges) really do not discuss, for the reason I mentioned above.

What is the date of your car?

PM me your contact information.

Tim

[cheveslakr]

My '66 has both gussets stamped with the -10, and had no evidence of the chalk marks but the part no. stencil was quite obvious. I suspect the vin. isn't addressed because it's so difficult if not impossible to be seen and judged. I haven't purchased a judging manual for my car, but have referrenced the experts on the C2 forum, and they're always glad to help.

[Lynn]

Trim tag indicates Feb. 11.

PM sent.

[Tracker1]

I took one photo of my 1970 Vette chassis VIN stamp years ago S402541

[Lynn]

I am impressed you could get a camera up there!

[Lynn]

No partial vin on this frame anywhere.

Finally getting some work done on the LT-1. Had the frame sandblasted, then treated with Ospho, per the instructions, because SPI said that was the ONLY rust treatment their product (epoxy primer) would work on. It looked great. Entire frame was a dull gray.

Got ready to shoot a few months ago, and the SPI instructions say you MUST neutralize the Ospho before shooting primer. Again, followed the directions to the "T" and ended up with flash rust on about 20% of the frame. Had to wait for decent weather to sand blast the flash rust myself. Did that today, and ended up blasting every square inch of the thing. Still, it was so clean only took about 2 hours, then 30 min. to clean up.

Very pleased. Will shoot primer Wed. evening. The primer needs to induce minimum of four hours if you want UV protection... and I do. Even though the frame will not be exposed to direct sunlight, it will be exposed to light. Don't want it to turn chalky.

So, will mix Tues. nite and shoot Wed. night.

Question: I hate throwing out good paint. How much should I mix for the frame? Planning to shoot an antique bed cast iron foot board for my granddaughter at the same time, so it is OK if I have a little extra. Don't have much else I can shoot right now, but want to get some primer on this thing ASAP before I get some more flash rust. 1/2 quart shot with a 1.5 nozzle? Would hate to run out.

[Lynn]

Example of the flash rust I got after "neutralizing" the Ospho.

[Too Many Projects]

A red, Scotch Brite pad would have scuffed the flash off sufficiently to paint. Not understanding why you used the ospho after blasting ? There are others on this forum who use SPI far more than me, but once I have a part that has been blasted I clean and go straight to epoxy. I've never used ospho after reading about adhesion failures if it isn't thoroughly neutralized and then you deal with the flash rust issue.
Anyway, I don't see waiting more than 4 hours for the epoxy to induce. If you want to spray at night, mix the epoxy in the morning. The Black settles out quite a bit while sitting and I find stirring it after 2 hours helps with that and actually, rarely, wait any longer than 2 hours to use it.
1 pint isn't going to get you 2-3 coats IMO. A frame has a lot more area than we realize. I turn the fan pattern down a lot to minimize overspray paint loss and then the volume needs to be turned down as well, or it is easy to flood the part unless you are really moving the gun quickly. Difficult to spot spray into the channels with too much volume too. I believe you'll need a full quart to get good coverage and I would also add 10% medium reducer to get it to flow better.
Allow plenty of flash time between coats too, 1 hour is, usually, safe and helps prevent "excessive flowage" as my mentor calls runs... LOL
Are you a member on the SPI forum ? Those guys can advise you far better than I can with my limited experience. Member SMS on this forum has extensive experience with SPI as well.
1 other item I would like to suggest and it would take time for you to acquire, would be to use a liner system for the paint gun versus the cup. With a collapsible liner, you can paint upside down and not have paint running out of the vent hole in the cup cap.

Most of all, work on being patient with yourself and the process. Once mixed, the paint has a long window in a sealed container and there is no need to rush, even though we tend to feel we need to do that...:wink:

[daveg]

Neat car.
I had the neutered version of your car in 1978- 1979.
1972 model LT-1, M22 coupe in war bonnet yellow with black interior.
Mine also did not have PS or PB.
Car is long gone.
Good luck.

[CamarosRus]

Used OSPHO on Underfloors of my 70 Z28 LEGENDS Restoration. Followed Neutralizing Instructions and blew down with air............

Applied SPI Red Oxide Formula to match Norwood 1970 Primer........

Also used SPI Primer on everything else. The Black has a nice semi gloss sheen to
it......Your frame would not need top coating unless you felt a must to do so...

I bought a gallon of SPI Single Stage Black for not much more than a Qt of PPG DBC
Single Stage cost..........

Black SPI UNderfloor is a different Camaro than Red Oxide Floor 70 Z

[Lynn]

Looks great Chuck.

[396 SS/RS]

Looks good! Not sure of the body weight but it looks like you have ample sized slings. Keep in mind when tying a knot in a sling it can reduce the capacity of the sling by 50%. Wouldn't want to lose the load or hurt someone.

[Lynn]

Mitch said:
Not understanding why you used the ospho after blasting ?

Lynn: Have you not been paying attention all these years? I am a dumbass! Should have just cleaned it up and shot it right then. Had to do a couple of dent repairs left from floor jacks under the frame. Decided that Ospho would be a great way to make sure there was no rust in the little crevices. I am guessing that when I neutralized it, I rubbed too hard and removed the protective layer.



Mitch: Anyway, I don't see waiting more than 4 hours for the epoxy to induce. If you want to spray at night, mix the epoxy in the morning. The Black settles out quite a bit while sitting and I find stirring it after 2 hours helps with that and actually, rarely, wait any longer than 2 hours to use it.

Lynn: Will mix tonight, keep it in a sealed container and shoot tomorrow night. Mornings don't work out so well getting much done. Spec sheet says it is good for up to 72 hours in a sealed container.

Mitch: 1 pint isn't going to get you 2-3 coats IMO. A frame has a lot more area than we realize. I turn the fan pattern down a lot to minimize overspray paint loss and then the volume needs to be turned down as well, or it is easy to flood the part unless you are really moving the gun quickly. Difficult to spot spray into the channels with too much volume too. I believe you'll need a full quart to get good coverage and I would also add 10% medium reducer to get it to flow better.

Allow plenty of flash time between coats too, 1 hour is, usually, safe and helps prevent "excessive flowage" as my mentor calls runs... LOL

Lynn: One quart it is. Will likely just shoot two coats, depending on time. I still work for a living. Gotta get some shut eye.

Mitch: 1 other item I would like to suggest and it would take time for you to acquire, would be to use a liner system for the paint gun versus the cup. With a collapsible liner, you can paint upside down and not have paint running out of the vent hole in the cup cap.

Lynn: Will look into that. May not be able to get it before this shoot, but will give it a shot.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Frame is a nice uniform color, almost white. Should take the paint really well.

[Too Many Projects]

Somehow, I don't see being a "dumbass" got you to where you are in life. That would be the guy who's only goal was to drive big equipment and play in the dirt all day making slightly more than minimum expenses.

[CamarosRus]

SPI Epoxy.......Purchase Directly from SPI shipped to your door.................

[luzl78]

Looks good! Not sure of the body weight but it looks like you have ample sized slings. Keep in mind when tying a knot in a sling it can reduce the capacity of the sling by 50%. Wouldn't want to lose the load or hurt someone.

dont see the slings its mounted on the rotisserie.

[Lynn]

I think he was looking at page one where I used a sling to remove body from frame.

[Kurt S]

I think he was looking at page one where I used a sling to remove body from frame.
Thanks! I went back and looked at the rotisserie pics at least twice looking for them! :)