1966 Yenko Stinger for sale [Archive]

Stefano

10-06-2002, 05:36 PM

Tom,
I respectfully have to ask you where you have been for all the Douglass discussion this past Year? Why have you not commented till today?

Are you implying that someone other than Jack Douglass Sold his own COPO orders as Yenkos and that Jack was not authorized to do so?

What became availible in 1971 has absolutely nothing to do with what was sold in 1969.

Jack Douglass was not just anyone off the street. He was one of the Yenko "Authorized" Dealers.

Do you have any evidence that other dealers sold their own COPO orders per the Yenko Blueprint as new Yenkos in 1969.

Have you ever spoken to Jack Douglass or even inspected one of his cars prior to forming this belated opinion.

My Camaro was sold new as a Yenko. This is a documented fact , /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif not just my opinion.

To say that to include Douglass cars as Yenko would mean that you would have to include any car which carried Yenko Stripes as a true Yenko,is an argument without much foundation IMO.

It was not the stripes which made the Douglass Cars Yenkos but the arrangement to sell them to the public as such as well as the way and reason in which they were ordered, in the first place.

Is a Canonsberg Yenko without stripes just a COPO Camaro by your definition?

copolocater

10-06-2002, 05:57 PM

Would it be fair to state a Douglass converted Yenko?My question is did Don make anything above the sale of the emblems and stripe kit?If it is or can be proven that he also made money over and above those items then you would have to consider it a converted Yenko.I've seen a flyer that was a handout of Douglass chevrolet that contained the Yenko nova,camaro and chevelle.Isn't that something Don would have to approve or put a stop to if they weren't considered actual Yenkos?I'm not taking either side but you have to ask yourself these questions. Personally I think it's a neat story and a neat car plus they offered colors Don didn't.

djunod

10-06-2002, 06:00 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>
They told me that if I consigned a few cars they would let me in and provide all the free beer I could drink.

<hr></blockquote>

Plying you with liquor hoping you will buy more /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

shor

10-06-2002, 08:58 PM

I am personally not a "stripe" fan. When my car is done the stripes will reside in cardboard box in the trunk. I do know that my car was sold new at Jack Douglass Chevrolet as a Yenko Camaro. Daytona Yellow with black stripes. This is fact. My car was one of the last batch of 25 that Jack ordered from Chevrolet direct, utilizing the COPO code that he discovered. I think Jack Douglass Chevrolet was the 2nd highest volume "supercar yenko" dealer, second only to Yenko Chevrolet.

Jack had a little problem selling this last batch when they arrived. The problem was Jack had been advertising these Yenko cars heavily but it was a tough sale without the stripes. Jack has sold alot of Cannonsburg Yenkos to date and when people came in they said"wheres the stripes? where's the Yenko invoice?

On top of this Don was threatining to sue. They, after a very heated telephone discussion (verified by Don's seceratary, she remenbers because Don said he was going to personally fly out to Chicago and kick Jack's a**)they came to an agreement. Jack would pay Don 400 per car and Don would send him the stripe kits, window stickers, emblems etc.

Was I there? No. Is this true? I think so. Jack is still alive and has corraberated this sequence of events verbatim. Does this make these last batch of yenkos any less of a Yenko than thier Cannonsburg cousins? I can not say with absolute certainty. Time and preference will tell.

In my opinion these are very special cars that were ordered through the COPO system at Chevrolet with some very neat options...endura bumper,am/fm blue dot, bright trim group, interior trim, chambered exhaust and 9737. They were converted to Yenkos in Illinois rather than in Pennsylvania.

Tom, you as administrator of this site have found yourself in a rather unique position. If someone is asking you to verify the validity of one of these cars, I don't believe the opinion of one should be forever be known as "fact". I don't know the right or wrong answer either( and I own one of these !). You could refer them to Ed's site on the Douglass section. http://www.copo.com/L72-VIN-69-Douglas-Camaro.htm
He has done a great job in 100 words or less in describing these cars accurately and honestly, and there is a VIN database on these 25 to boot!

I think until the jury comes back on this one we should refer to our beloved cars as Cannonsburg Yenkos, or Douglass Yenkos. For the non Douglass fans and Cannonsburg purists among us you can simply call them, "one of those Douglass cars. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

*********( Stefano has informed me that I was a little off with regard to paragraph two of this post.(I am a sloppy note taker!) Rather than edit it out, let's wait till tonight as I expect a very long post to be forthcoming from Stefano. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif *******************

sYc

10-06-2002, 09:10 PM

In the past, I had steered away from the debate over the Douglas cars. But once I received an email asking for my opinion on the car, I felt obligated to respond. And, I felt it better to do it here, in the open, where everyone's opinion, not just mine, could be expressed. That way, any potential investors who might frequent this site would know the car's history and how it is classified in the world of supercars. I was not questioning the owner's integrity nor any of the facts surrounding the car. I was simply expressing one man's opinion. It is possible that this discussion could actually raise the value of this car, and others like it. Only time will tell.

Shor; GREAT POST!!! Well said. Tom

shor

10-06-2002, 09:44 PM

Tom, can you somehow move these last couple of posts over to a "new topic", maybe called Jack Douglass Yenko discussion?

Ed Cunneen

10-06-2002, 10:37 PM

I just wanted to mention that I grew up only minutes from Jack Douglass Chevrolet, and before I ever purchased my first Yenko, knew the story of Jack Douglass selling Yenko Camaros, and that Jack had found out how to order the cars directly from the factory instead of going through Don Yenko. There was a Daytona Yellow Yenko cruising the streets in the mid seventies that was ordered directly by Jack Douglass. I have since certified this car.
I later learned from talking to Jack Douglass that Don Yenko felt this was an unfair practice. Both agreed that Jack would pay a fee to Don for each Yenko ordered and sold by Douglass. Jack also mentioned that each COPO he ordered was to be outfitted with Yenko stripes and emblems.
In my opinion, these Douglas Yenkos are as collectible as any other Yenko sold through the Canonsburg dealership. In fact, I wouldn't mind having that White Douglas Yenko sitting next to my Black COPO Chevelle! If Stefano would only make me a deal! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

copolocater

10-06-2002, 11:05 PM

Attention collectors arriving soon-Yenko ertles now in Black,Red, White,Burnished Brown and one or two other colors!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

68l30

10-06-2002, 11:21 PM

LOL Tim! I hope not,I don't need any more toy's....

Steve

69rsss350

10-07-2002, 01:24 AM

Man, this is good stuff! Is the bastard child a legitimate heir to the throne???

hvychev

10-07-2002, 02:57 AM

We have got to keep in mind that Don Yenko was above all else a business man. Remember he was a dealer owner and I am probably not the first to tell you that they are the farthest thing from the patron saint of anything! TRUST ME!! We know that he created some of the most awesome muscle cars ever but remember he was out to make a buck. If I read the above posts right I think copolocater mentioned about the profit he made above and beyond the stripes. Shor mentioned that he recived $400 per car. Guys to let you know that was a lot of money for stripes and badges! I would be happy in 2002 to make that profit on a whole car let alone for a stripe kit in 1969. What did they cost in 69 all of $50-$75 dollars?! I think that was a very heafty royalty for the use of his name and stripe scheme because GM provided the rest (COPO PKG). If they sold 25 COPO's and all were sold/marketed as "Yenko's" at $400 a pop x 25 that comes to $10,000!! Well compensated. If everything that I read about Jack Douglass is right in the past year that I have been a member of this site and they sold their COPO's with a Yenko Stripe kit, and paid $400 per car, and their was never a known legit lawsuit/beef between Jack and Don regaurding a copyright infringement than IMO THEY ARE TRUE YENKO CAMAROS!! I for one would actually perfer one of the Douglas cars because they were unleashed on to the world in my own backyard of the Windy City! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

copolocater

10-07-2002, 03:11 AM

Now find me the LUCKY guy with the red /black stripe car. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

sYc

10-07-2002, 07:47 AM

So, if all Yenkos are created equal (collectable), does that mean that all Stingers are equal as well? Including the ones that were sold by other dealers, but used (bought $$$) the Stinger kit from Yenko? Tom

JoeC

10-07-2002, 10:32 AM

In my opinion. A Douglas 427 COPO Camaro with Yenko stripes is not a Yenko Camaro. It is a copy of a Yenko Camaro. It may be a legal authorized 1969 copy as compared to the illegal copies that are all to common today but still a copy. This is why there are complex Copyright laws. According to legal documents "Copyright law secures for the creator of a creative effort the exclusive right to control who can make copies, or make works derived from the original work." A Yenko Camaro was the creative work of Don Yenko and Yenko Sports Cars. It is no wonder Don was angry with Douglas. Yenko built them (or bought them), modified them, documented them, marketed them and put his name on them. This creative work is the sum of Don's name, racing history, racing sponsorship, magazine advertising, etc., and has a commercial value. That is why Douglas paid Don so he can use the Yenko name and stripes to sell his 427 COPO Camaros. Why didn't he put Douglas stripes and emblems on them? He wanted to copy the Yenko's and take advantage of the Yenko name. Again, this is my opinion, but if the car was not the property of Don Yenko or was not built by Yenko Sports Cars or does not have Yenko documentation, then it is not a Yenko Camaro.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 12:53 PM

I also believe these cars are not Yenko's. If you run an NICB report, they come back as Douglas', not Yenko's.

Do you feel that a car bought locally, with mail ordered Motion parts installed, the same as a 'Baldwin-Motion'? We have seen Joel turn down cars that were created in this fashion, how is the Douglas situation any different?

shor

10-07-2002, 01:52 PM

Joe and Marlin, Of course the NICB comes back as Douglass Chevrolet. These cars were ordered from Douglass, invoiced to Douglass and sold new from Douglass. These cars never made a trip to Cannonsburg. This is not in question.

The Baldwin Motion argument isn't similar. The name "Baldwin Motion" is descriptive of the dealer and the tuner...Baldwin Chevrolet and Joel Rosen.
By the way...the most famous Baldwin Motion Corvette in existence was invoiced and sold new to a Chevrolet dealer in Ashtobula Ohio, then the car was sent to Long Island New York(Joel Rosen) for the conversion process. Two fellow board members can elaborate more than I on this one(mark ?)
Even though I don't believe this is the same situation...... is that car not a Baldwin Motion? If the owner drove the car before sending it to Joel is he disqualified? What if the dealer in ohio sent it first before selling the car to the customer...does it then Qualify?

The Douglass debate is not merely about a sticker kit. That is not what happened in 1969. Was the young man that drove his 1969 Jack Douglass Yenko Camaro with the stripes, emblems, headrests and Yenko invoice in the glovebox off of the dealer lot in June of 69 driving a lesser car than the same man that picked his up in Pennsylvania?

If my car still had it's original paint and original stripes and original Yenko invoice as delivered new in 1969 would I be incorrect to not display it and present it as such? Are we trying to rewrite history here? Are we now applying rules that must be met to describe a car as a Yenko? Who is in charge of the "new" rules?
My car is a Douglass Yenko.

As an aside I have a question for Brian Henderson.
I know how Brian feels about this whole Douglass thing and we differ a little on our opinions but my car is now in his shop awaiting reasemmbly.
Brian , to restore my car "correctly" do you put the stripes, headrests, and Yenko emblems back on ?

djunod

10-07-2002, 01:59 PM

There are Baldwin-Motion cars and there are Motion cars. Two different things.

sixtiesmuscle

10-07-2002, 02:13 PM

I agree with Shor that some are misunderstanding the arrangement Don made with Jack. He essentially granted the right to sell these cars as Yenko Camaros. He provided the part & pieces to make them identicle to those that made a stop in PA., and profited from the sale of this right.
Furthermore, Jack Douglass was THE authorized dealer for Yenko cars in Chicago. Given the fact that he was authorized by Yenko to sell these cars,with all the Yenko trim, and, sold them as such, they became official Yenko Camaros.
Joe, by Yenko granting Douglass the right to do this, he sold Jack his "copyright" to "build" Yenko Camaros. Let's not forget, these were identical to the Yenko "built" in every material way. By selling Douglass the right to sell Yenko branded cars he agreed they would be sold as equal to the cars he sold to other Yenko dealers.
Again, I ask, was a Nickey Camaro built at Bill Thomas's shop in Anaheim NOT considered a Nickey Camaro, both by the public, and Nickey, back in '67 & '68? They had a business agreement, just like Yenko & Douglass. It seems pretty cut & dried tp ME, but, I understand there is room for reasonable people to disagree. BUT, to say that they are "copies", or merely run of the mill COPOS, seems to fly in the face of the facts.

10-07-2002, 02:21 PM

I wonder if Vince Emme has any info on this? Maybe these cars were recorded in some way? Has anyone tried to document one of these through him?

Charley Lillard

10-07-2002, 02:37 PM

Shor...That is a great question for Brian. Shor made a earlier comment,"Jack would pay Don 400 per car and Don would send him the stripe kits, window stickers, emblems etc." I would think that the Window Sticker from Yenko would mean alot. I haven't seen one of them for a Douglas car but I don't know how you could argue with a Yenko Window Sticker if they exist. I don't own one of these so I am sitting back enjoying the discussion.

copolocater

10-07-2002, 03:00 PM

I don't see how there can be any inconsistancy here.I've asked questions and they have been answered.9561 is a copo,not a Yenko,not a Douglass,not a Courtesy,not a Scuncio it was a order # for a 427 camaro from GM in 1968-69.To assign a paticular dealer to that number doesn't hold weight.Fact,Don Yenko proffited from the sale of 9561 copo camaros sold at Jack Douglass Chevrolet.Fact,Don Yenko gave legal right in accepting financial commission to have his name and reputation placed on these copos.Fact,Don Yenko approved the sale and advertisement of the cars to be sold as yenkos.Fact, people purchasing these cars as such were assumably purchasing these cars as Yenkos.You can't dispute these cars as being nothing else but a Yenko and the original purchasers will probably tell you the same.Call it what you want Yenko,Jack Douglass Yenko,converted Yenko its got Dons blessing(financially)its a Yenko.

hvychev

10-07-2002, 03:25 PM

Was their ever a quote from Don Yenko while he was alive as to the Douglas cars or cars like them? What did he consider them as?

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 03:45 PM

Quote:
"Joe and Marlin, Of course the NICB comes back as Douglass Chevrolet. These cars were ordered from Douglass, invoiced to Douglass and sold new from Douglass. These cars never made a trip to Cannonsburg. This is not in question."

So, based on the paragraph above, how is it a Yenko compared to cars with NICB's from Yenko? Stripes, tach's, and emblems do not make a Yenko, whether it's on a COPO car or not.

The motion situation is related. Motion performance allowed you, or your dealer, to use his name, design, r&d, etc... when you bought his parts. Is the Corvette in Harrisburg, PA with the all the parts on it a Motion car? Joel says no. I think the Douglas situation is very similar to the non-'Baldwin' Motion cars - they are not real Motion cars in the financial sense of the word, and I think most people who are looking to buy a Yenko would pay more for a car with an NICB from 13-898.

Are you suggesting that we start calling our cars by their selling dealer-Yenko? We don't refer to all of the other Chicago dealers as Fencl-Tufo Yenko, Sorenson Yenko, Mancuso Yenko, etc... We call them Yenko's because that is who ordered them from GM, and that is where they came from. Should we call some of the '67 Yenko Camaros "Harrell-Yenko's" since Harrell did the labor on them? I don't know, possibly. We refer to some of the Deuces as Hurst cars since Hurst did the labor, but the NICB is still Yenko.

Stefano

10-07-2002, 04:12 PM

I would like to clearify some of the information as it was told to me by Jack Douglass himself. I was not there either and if Jack says that I have not represented his story accurately then he is of course correct.

I would also take this opportunity to apologize to Jack and his family, for first off discussing him in the third person and allowing us to question his word and integrity here on this site.

He has long ago asked me to drop the topic. I just can't allow myself to do so.

It is no wonder why Jack Douglass and people like Joel Rosen don't want to have anything to do with "enthusiasts" when all we do is question their integrity.

There is a difference between opinion and fact and that is what is getting mixed up here.

The fact is that Don Yenko Founder of Yenko Sports Cars Inc. defined by application that which was a Yenko Super Camaro.

He and Jack had a verbal contract for Jack to act as the exclusive dealer for Yenko Sports Cars ,Inc. in Chicago,IL Metro Area.

Jack Douglass was an avid roadracer. He met both Don Yenko and Dona Mae while in pursuit of one of his greatest passions,roadracing. He ran with this crowd(and ran hard) and has many interesting stories, save for another thread.

Don made Jack aware of the new Super Camaros for the 1969 model year and lead Jack to believe ,as Don did with most other dealers that the only way to purchase one of the L72 Iron block Camaros was directly through him.

Jack had no reason to doubt him as he was well aware of Don's work with the Stinger and the 1967 and 1968 Camaros and there was no information provided to the dealers by GM to order the Super Camaros direct.

Jack agreed to take two truck loads of Yenko Cars to include Novas, Chevelles and Camaros. This is what was required to secure the State of Illinois as the franchised territory of Yenko Sports Cars Inc., for Jack Douglass Chevrolet,Inc.

It has been widly reported that Don Yenko had all pertinent paperwork removed from the cars prior to having them shipped to his dealers in the network. (Why?)

Jack states that the arival of the first truck load was a big deal. Everyone from all departments of the dealership came out to see the transporter load of Yenkos unloaded.

Jack states that he found Shipping Invoices "Shipper" in two of the Camaros from the initial transporter load.

These Shippers included the COPO information 9737 and 9561. Jack took this info and called his Zone Office to see if he could order the cars direct with the special codes.

The Zone replied that they were not familiar with the special orders and that they would contact GM headquarters.

GM Detroit called Jack back and told him that he could indeed order these special COPO cars direct.

Jack felt that Don Yenko had made a major missrepresentation and a breech of their contract, as now any dealer "in the know" could order the cars direct and sell them at a price advantage over the SYC cars. Case in point Berger Chevrolet.

Jack placed an order for his own cars without consulting Don Yenko. Jack used the Yenko Blue print(the shipping invoice) to place his order. He also added a few interesting colors as well as additional equipment.

Prior to this shippment ever arriving, Don discovered that Douglass had circumvented his system and as was stated called Jack and not only threatened physical harm but also legal action. Jack explained his position and that he supported the sYc concept which was to include a Nation wide marketing campaign. This Campaign included drag race sponsorship as well as traditional "print" advertsing.

This is when and where Jack and Don agreed to maintain their Business relationship and for Jack to still remain the exclusive Chicago/Illinois dealer for Yenko Sports Cars Inc.

This agreement was stuck prior to the Douglass Ordered Cars ever hitting the ground. Part of the arrangement was that Jack would not discuss the order procedures with any other dealers.

Jack also remembers a conversation with Dale Berger as the Berger COPO order was built/initiated just ahead of the Douglass order since Douglass had COPOs on the ground and Berger did not.

Berger Did not support the Yenko Dealer Network and justifiably figured that his own Hi-performance market would support the sale of his COPOs while maintaing a price advantage over the sYc dealer network.(this info was provided to me by Jack Douglass).

It seems that the Douglass situation caused Don Yenko and GM to want to cover their tracks with potential Chevy Dealer Franchise infringement headaches as well.

The last bach of Camaros did not sell well for Jack or most of the other Dealers. This per Jack Douglass was primarily due to the fact that insurance for the L72-427 Super Cars became virtually either not affordable or nonexistant in the Chicago Metro area.

Jack remembers that he ended up taking at least a few of His Douglass Yenkos to the local auctions and selling them off to other dealers in Chicago or around the country.

This is not my story, it is Jacks story. It is supported by Tom Dumass former General Manager, an assistant service manager, his son John and many of my local fellow enthusiasts who purchased, drooled over, or raced a Yenko Camaro from Douglass Chevrolet.

The legend and legacy of the Late Great Don Yenko was perpetuated as well as enhanced by Jack Doulglass. (IMO)

sixtiesmuscle

10-07-2002, 04:15 PM

Seems to me that emotions & opinions sway some more than the simple FACTS of the situation that existed in 1969. The temptation to rewrite history is great to protect the integrity of the Cannonsberg Yenkos. The undisputed truth of the situation back "in the day", was that:

Don Yenko agreed that Jack Douglass could sell the Copo cars he striped in Hinsdale as official Yenko cars. He set a high price for his authorization, probably equal to what he would have made selling cars shipped to him.

Douglass, as the official, authorized Yenko dealer, sold them to the buying public as Yenkos.

They were, at that time, [and now] Yenko cars.

Whether they are worth more or less than the other Yenkos, only time will tell. That's for any individual, properly informed buyer to determine.
The comparison to Baldwin Motion or Motion prepped cars doesn't apply directly. I'm still waiting for someone to weigh in on the comparison of the Nickey/Bill Thomas similarity to the Yenko/Douglass relationship.

Stefano

10-07-2002, 04:48 PM

Mike,
Yes I agree with the Nicky/Thomas scenario, as it is the most similar to this Situation. The Baldwin /Motion, Joel Rosen does not apply IMO.

Tom,
A reply to your question regarding the over the Counter Yenko Stinger Kits. Yes those are 100% Yenko Stinger over the counter kit cars. Yes, they are Yenkos.

No ,they do not have the benefit of having been torn down and blue printed, ordered and invoiced by Yenko Chevrolet but they are by definition (SCCA Sports Car Club of America) a Yenko.

It just happens that it was built by "Joe Roadracer" not
Warren Dernasheck at Yenko Chevrolet, or Dickie Harrell in at his shop,in New Mexico!

They are a unique part of the Yenko Legacy.

The individual who purchased only the parts and not the Yenko VIN does not have a Yenko Stinger.

This also is not a similar situation to the Douglass one, but a very good topic as well.

Marlin,
While our opinions are at different ends of the spectrum on this issue, I would expect that you could understand the use of Douglass Yenko to identify a unique situation in Super Car History.

The simple reason we do not use the similar identifier with other dealers is that Jack Douglass was the only Dealer in the network with this special/unique arrangement.

No one else had it to the best of my knowledge and research.

copolocater

10-07-2002, 04:59 PM

Mike you hit the nail right in the head.Call it what it is Nickey/Thomas---Nickey , Baldwin Motion---Motionconverted , Yenko---Douglass Yenko

Mr70

10-07-2002, 05:21 PM

Looking at the Yenko Sportscars,Inc.ad that says "Meet The Mean Ones!"
It lists al the different states and the Names of all those dealers in the Yenko network.I'm sure everyone has seen this.
How are those cars referred to today?
Are they identified as Yenkos,or Francis/Yenkos as in from that Missouri dealership?
Were they too paying Don $400.00 for his striping kits?
How was Douglass different from them?

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 05:33 PM

Stefano;
A well written documentary, but I don't see any proof of this 'relationship'.

Mike;
Likewise, I don't see what backs up the 'undisputed truth'.

We have a copy of the sales agreement between Josh Darden, the owner of Colonial Chev., and Don Yenko. Evidently, when Yenko entered into a deal with one of his participating dealers, it was put into writing. Until I see the Douglas situation in writing, I will have difficulty believing the verbal conversations. I'm not downing Douglas and his employees etc... but we all know that it is hard to remember all this stuff from 30 years ago. Don claimed 500 Yenko Camaros in his interview in '87 remember?

I obviously have a different opinion on this, based primarily on the fact that I don't place a lot of weight on verbal recollections. In my mind, if your Motion stripes/parts, Yenko stripes/emblems, or Stinger stuff came in the mail - you have a mail order car, not the real deal /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

JoeC

10-07-2002, 05:33 PM

As I said in my post I am giving my opinion. I am not trying to make any rules new or old and not implying any opinion on market value. Whichever one the market determines is of higher value is fine with me and does not matter as far as the history of the cars. I am more interested in the history of the cars but of course I do watch the market also. Any hi performance car is a great piece of automotive history no matter what dealer sold it.
My opinion on the Motion cars -- if it did not go through Baldwin Auto Sales it is not a Baldwin/Motion car. It is a Motion Performance car. I see the Nickey/Thomas cars as a different situation. The original adds beginning in late 1966 state that Nickey and Thomas were both building 427 Camaros. So you have the Nickey/Thomas relationship clearly stated in the original ads. There are ads for 1967 427 Dana/Yenko Camaros so there was some type of relationship with Dana but unfortunately not much is known about these 67 Yenkos as yet. The 1969 Yenko documents state that the cars were built by "Yenko Sports Cars Inc. The leading producer of Hi Performance Chevrolet Based Vehicles." If Douglas made his own Yenko ID kit it would have been an illegal copy but they reached an agreement and Douglas made a legal copy. Usually in the collector world a copy is a copy. Authorized or not it is never the same as an original produced by the original creator. The Douglas story is interesting. I am giving my opinions on a something that happened many years ago and I was not there and do not wish to make Mr. Douglas feel he or his cars are being talked about in a negative way.

bkhpah

10-07-2002, 05:37 PM

The big difference lies right under your nose. Douglass used Yenko's ordering procedure and enhanced it with options Yenko did not use. Yenko was the father of the 9561 and 9737 COPO Camaros, Chevelles and COPO LT/1 Novas along with many other inovations and forward thinking, not Douglass. Yenko was to have the exclusive rights to the 427 Camaro. What happened that the door was opened for other dealers to lift his hard work? You might ask Jim Maddison. Byrnes Brothers was an authorized Yenko dealer and also sold their version of a stripper COPO Camaro. Most of the major players like Berger, Nickey/Thomas, Motion, Harrell etc benifited from Yenko's understanding of the GM COPO system. The Nickey/Thomas question seams easy to me. These cars were advertised that way. The Douglass/Yenko cars were not. Don't ask don't tell seems to be the word on the Douglass cars. Surely a customer would be unaware that his car had no Canonsburg history. Most might not even care, but the facts is they don't. 30+ years ago nobody would expect the COPO Camaros to be worth anything. Having a Douglass car with all the additinal gingerbread is a cool car. Why should it not be considered a Douglass car period. I would not want a car with Yenko badging if it was not from Canonsburg. If Douglass was the man with the ideas we would all be fooled into thinking our Yenko/Douglass cars are the same as a real Douglass car. Its all just opinions, and the Douglass cars are very unique, but not Yenko's. The 400 dollar figure seems way to high to me. Is that a fact? Are there people out there putting Yenko stripes on Douglass cars to enhance their value today? Has anyone taken a Yenko/SC Canonsburg car and made it into a Douglass? Curious...BKH

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 05:40 PM

Rick;
In my opinion, it goes back to the NICB info. If you buy a car that is represented as a Baldwin-Motion, and then you get the NICB info and it says Reedman Chev, do you not turn around and try to get your money back? Why? Because you would want a car that was sold new at Baldwin and sent to Motion.

In my mind, it's the same with a Yenko car. If my Yenko was sold out of Nankivell, I expect the car to be dealer txfr'd from Yenko Chev. Otherwise, without paperwork to back up a deal between Nankivell and Yenko, I don't have a Yenko car.

Stefano

10-07-2002, 05:50 PM

Rick,
Yes, they were all paying a Royalty or Fee on the sale of each of those cars to Yenko Sports Cars, Inc. It was built into the price of the Super Car. It was a substantial premium and I would suspect that Don did everything he could to protect this Royalty or Fee.

The Douglass Situation is unique,... repeat unique. He was the only dealer in the Network which ordered the COPOs direct and then sold them to the public as Yenkos.

While the Fee situation may help some rationalize whether the cars are Yenkos or not, I feel it only goes to support the arrangement between Yenko/Douglass.

The conumer and and ultimate purchaser of the Douglass Yenko knew nothing of this arrangement and in turn it had no bearing on their purchase decision.

JoeC,
To say that the Douglass Yenkos are similar to ,or the same as a home built replica out of someones garage is well......(no further reply on that comment).

JoeC

10-07-2002, 05:55 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>
JoeC,
To say that the Douglass Yenkos are similar to ,or the same as a home built replica out of someones garage is well......(no further reply on that comment).

<hr></blockquote>

Did I say that? Where do you see that?
/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

copolocater

10-07-2002, 06:01 PM

Marlin you and I know thats not always the case.When I worked at a dealer in Ambridge Pa. at least 2 to 3 times a week I did what was known as a dealer trade.Sometimes taking a car picking up one,picking up a car paying with a check,picking up a car and delivering two to numerous dealers in Western Pa..I myself did this for that dealer for 2 years.Just from that dealer alone thats over 200 cars not counting what somebody else traded to us using their people.I know this if I bought a Yenko from Jack Douglass back in 69 or bought one awhile ago thinking it was and paid extra for one I'd Have my retained attorney putting in overtime.

sixtiesmuscle

10-07-2002, 06:10 PM

As far as written agreements, Douglass DID have the written contract to be the Yenko dealer for all of Chicagoland. In the Yenko archives, Tom uncovered a memo which pointed out the unique agreement he had with Jack Douglass. I believe it was posted the last time this subject was discussed.
As far as memories being fuzzy, I ask you, would any of the Yenko purists question Don's current statements IF he were here to share them? I think not.
I have discussed these details with Jack for over four years, long before any controversy arose, and, the story has never changed.
In the end, as I said before, reasonable people should be able to disagree, yet, appreciate that the other side has validity as well. We should have all learned by now that it is dangerous to speak in absolutes when it comes to what was done back then.

Mr70

10-07-2002, 06:33 PM

Brian H.
Now I too am curious how you will restore shors car.With or without the Yenko signature stripes/emblems/Headrests?

Copolocater
I am confused on two things you stated.Don't these statements contradict eachother?

At 10:00 AM:
"Call it what you want,Yenko,Jack Douglass Yenko,converted Yenko,it's got Dons blessing (financially) its a Yenko."

Then at 1:01 PM:
"I know this,if I bought a Yenko from Jack Douglass back in 69 or bought one a while ago thinking it was and paid extra for one,I'd have my retained attorney putting in overtime."
I am just trying to understand what is intended here.

While I was recently talking to Mr.Ed,he told me:"Jack Douglass was a good business man.He found a way to work around the Middleman,and Capitalize on it,or at the very least tried to."

Stefano

10-07-2002, 06:39 PM

Brian,
Jack Douglass has never taken any credit and fully stated that the sYc concept belonged to Don Yenko. Jack also never had the intent to sell them as anything other than Yenkos.

What Don Did, with GMs support however, did boarder on infringing GM's Parts,Sales and Service Agremeement with their other dealers. That is why a dealer who discovered the program was allowed to order direct.

If he had not made the agreement, which included more than the stripes and badges,then he would not have sold them to the public as Yenkos and we would not be having this discussion.

As a restorer, I would have thought that you could appreciate and understand why someone would put a Super Car back to the way it was when delivered to the Customer.

No, I have not put the stripes, which were on my car when it was sold to the public ,as they had been removed. My Douglass Yenko was repainted without stripes and badges because Vince Emee had thought it was a Berger COPO and hence a D90 stripe was added, the Yenko Emblem holes were filled and a Berger Emblem was screwed to the tail panel.

If my car had not been sold with the Stripes, it would still be a Yenko and If I were to restore it under that circumstance,I would do so without the stripes.

I installed Stripes on Shor's Douglass Yenko because my research indicated that that was how the Camaro was sold to the public. I did prefer how it looked without them, however.

Marlin,
There was no paperwork/formal sales agreement between Douglass and Yenko and it has not been found to be the common practice. Acually the situation you mention happens to be unique,to the best of my knowledge.

Authorizing someone to do something encompasses alowing that entity to continue to do so. Jack called his order in either late January early February. Do you think that if he and Don were at odds there would not have been at least one single other Yenko Dealer in Chicago or the state of Illinois during this time frame?

JoeC,
I was not quoting you but paraphrasing and yes that is how I read your statements. I do repect your opinion and those of the membership however warped they may be /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif "Just Kidding"

Stefano

Chevy454

10-07-2002, 06:54 PM

Verbatim, dated September 19, 1969:

"It should be pointed out that Yenko Sportscars did not have any type of exclusive COPO and that many other dealers have purchased cars similar to the cars purchased by Yenko Sportscars. One Yenko dealer, however (Jack Douglas in Hinsdale, Illinois), after making a direct factory purchase of 22 vehicles identical to those sold him previously by Yenko Sportscars, found it advantageous to purchase YENKO emblems and trim to enhance retailing the merchandise."

INSERT OPINION HERE: Personally speaking, I feel the Douglass-Yenko cars ARE different than those that went through Canonsburg. Don had a distinct vision of what his Camaros were to be, and ordered them accordingly. Obviously, Jack Douglass had a different vision in mind, and ordered his cars accordingly, but felt, according to the document above, that a set of Yenko stripes/emblems would help sales. All of the other Yenko cars that went to other dealers (and Jack's first batch of COPOs) first passed through Canonsburg, but originated in Don's mind. Jack simply eliminated the middle man, and ordered them himself. Do I fault him for that? Not in the least, as he was running a business, the same as any other dealer, and I do agree with his choice of chambered exhaust. I also don't feel this is a question of his integrity. Let the flames begin!

copolocater

10-07-2002, 06:59 PM

Because of the differance of professional opinions on this site it could be missunderstood by future investors that all Douglass copos are not Yenkos.Those who bought for an investment bought under the premise that they bought a true Yenko.Those who bought new that still might retain their original car bought the same way.I am currently trying to purchase one of the Douglass cars, and was under the same premise, as a investment.If the SYC registry (with the paperwork they have)won't register these cars as yenkos then Joe Public won't take a chance on investing either. Tom and Rob can you share any docs you might have on the Douglass deal maybe then we can finally sort this out.

Stefano

10-07-2002, 06:59 PM

So you are the one who started all of this /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 07:06 PM

Tim;
I was referring to a 'sales agreement' which defined the geographic territory that Colonial had the rights to be the exclusive Yenko SportsCars dealer. This agreement didn't preclude Colonial from dealer transferring cars like you did at your dealership. I only reference this document as an example of how Don used written agreements under these types of circumstances. I believe Mike is referring to a similar 'sales' situation, whereby Douglas had the exclusive rights to sell sYc products in Chicago for 1969.

I don't think that these sales agreements can be assumed to include the authorization to install stripes/emblems etc... Wouldn't that require an additional written agreement?

If Jack and Don had this deal going, I would need to see it in writing, that's all.

10-07-2002, 07:15 PM

Come on you guys, I am not getting anything done at work today!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

sixtiesmuscle

10-07-2002, 07:16 PM

I'll add one more thought. Rob's quote indicates the UNIQUE relationship between the two dealerships. Had Jack bought just the the "stripes and trim" for about 50 bucks back then, it would be one thing. The additional fee charged by Yenko for the right to market them, WITH HIS APPROVAL, as Yenkos makes all the difference in the world.
As far as advertising being a determining factor in a marketing agreement, Douglass WAS listed in the Yenko ads as his authorized dealer. These three facts together are pretty compelling.
Yes, the cars are different, but, that doesn't make them any less of an official, authorized to sell it to the public, Yenko Camaro.

copolocater

10-07-2002, 07:21 PM

Marlin I understood but when you mention Motion some of the cars MSO's would not go back to Baldwin because a couple were dealer traded.They were sold new by Baldwin but were dealer exchanged because of customer preferance in which the prefered car wasn't lot available. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Chevy454

10-07-2002, 07:21 PM

Tim:

Dad's in Indy today, and I can't even BEGIN to understand his filing system, but I did manage to find article that Don wrote that dealt with Douglass, which I posted above verbatim. As far as I know, that is all we have on the Yenko/Douglass relationship, but like I said, the paperwork is dad's department.

Stefano:

More of my thoughts here, so feel free to disregard them, as most do, but here goes! Our concern arose with the listing (http://www.mecumauction.com/auctions/lot_detail.html?CART=103400268590396&LOT_ID=CH1102-4741) on the Mecum site: "1 of 2 white Yenkos". No other info given, unlike your other cars. Now, no big deal, just that we got an email about there being a white '69 Yenko, which would get the attention of anyone who knows "the basics" of the Yenkos, and the fact that Don ordered 6 colors on the '69 Camaros. Much to my surprise, not everyone reads this board (what a shame!), so not everyone is aware of the Douglass/Yenko relationship. Again, this is a unique situation with these cars, and in my opinion, can't be described simply as "Yenko Camaros".

Again, just my $.02...ok, maybe closer to $.01!

Stefano

10-07-2002, 07:30 PM

Tim,
The verified direct Order Yenkos sold from Douglass Chevrolet carry a "Yenko" Certificate from the Copo Connection, which we all know and recognize as one of the most established and leading authorities on the Subject.

Rob,
Thanks for sharing, but if that is all the estate document says, my opinion is that you are reading in between the lines. You certainly have more info than I.

Don's statement proves that Jack Douglass sold his direct order COPOs as Yenkos with Don's Knowledge.

The Yenko Statement 100% Supports Jack Douglass' statements. It does not say that he tried to market them and failed and then installed stripes after the fact. Jack agreed to the increase in marketablity from day one.

I would venture to say that if more other dealers had figured out how to order the COPOs exactly like Yenko, they certainly would have ordered Direct and I would furthur venture to say that no one else would have sold them as Yenkos to the public at Yenko premium prices.

Brian,
We are having a important discussion regarding the history of how these cars were delivered to the consumer when new.

Why would any one want to take a Canonsberg Yenko and represent it as a Douglass Yenko? Even if someone were to try and raise the marketability of their Yenko by doing so we would have the records to prove otherwise.

Remember Jack Douglass also sold Canonsberg Yenkos as well and side by side with his direct order.

copolocater

10-07-2002, 07:39 PM

Thanks Rob .Is there any way can we get a list of Yenko/Douglass vins compared to DouglassYenko vins at least there'll be a distinctsion!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 07:43 PM

Mike;
I'm not sure that you can say that $400 indicates an authorized arrangement, and $XX does not. If Don could get $400 out of Jack for the stripes, he would charge it. Why would Jack pay $400? If he didn't, he would be stuck with a bunch of COPO cars in a market where he was the exclusive dealer of sYc cars - not a good position to be in.

Yes, the cars are significantly different. Until some compelling paperwork shows up to the contrary, I believe that Yenko sold Yenko Camaro's, and Douglas sold COPO Camaros that were copies of Yenko's.

moparts

10-07-2002, 07:44 PM

This falls into the same catagory as the corvairs. After the origional 100, 66's then all other 66's are considered kit cars. Even though the kits were bought through Don with his blessing and him making money on them they are still kit cars and will not bring the price of an origional. After all wasn't this thread about Stingers????? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 07:48 PM

Stefano;
We know that Ed gives Cert's on the Douglas cars, what do they say - I've never seen a cert. on of them. I know that Vince Emme, also a noted authority, will not give a cert. on a Douglas car.

So, we are not the first, or only, guys to respectfully disagree on the Douglas situation.

Charley Lillard

10-07-2002, 07:52 PM

I'm still not clear on whether or not there was also a Yenko Window Sticker included with the stripes and emblems that Douglas bought from Yenko. Are there any examples out there ?

Stefano

10-07-2002, 07:56 PM

Rob,
I understand and the Data is not yet complete. All the info and Documentation about my car is with Mecum auction.

There is no intent to deceive, as anyone who would call Dana or me will be given complete and accurate information, to the best of our ability. I have been called on numerous occasions inquiring about my car and have always properly disclosed its pedigree.

The Mecum family were Chevrolet Dealers at the same time as Jack Douglass and Dana who also owns the Auction as well as the Bloomington Gold Corvette venue is one of the most knowledgable Muscle Car individuals that I have ever met.

I purchased my first Douglass Yenko from his private collection. He is well versed in the Douglass ordered Yenkos and knows as much as anyone if not more, as Jack Douglass also worked for Dana Mecum.

Dana has always considered the Douglass COPOs as Yenkos just direct ordered through Douglass Chevrolet.

I appreciate all that you and you family have done for Super Cars in general and welcome this forum to discuss, learn and share info about these Great Cars.

I was taken by complete surprise regarding Tom's comments as he had never ,to my recollection said anything regarding the situation. I felt that I was being accused of missrepresentation which is very serious in my business if not all busnisses.

My family has held a dealer licence for over 20 years without a single formal complaint against it along with many very satified customers and friends.

Chevy454

10-07-2002, 07:57 PM

Man, I was wondering how long Lillard could be quiet! Looks like not long! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Stupid question time: did any of the Douglass cars carry stripes from the factory? If so, am I to assume that these stripes were removed to add the Yenko stripes?

Stefano

10-07-2002, 08:16 PM

Marlin,
With all due respect to Vince he did not know or fully understand the Douglass Yenko situation. I know of two Douglass Yenko Camaros that he verbally verified as Berger Double COPO Camaros.

How would he be able to prove or disprove something he has no information about.

Verifiing Yenkos off of service or inventory sheets is a different situation.

This is in no way meant to discredit Mr.Emme or his knowledge regarding Don Yenko and the Cannonsberg COPOs.

Maurice,
Your question as well as many of the others have to do primarilly with value. A Yenko Stinger with a vin no matter whether Don installed it or a consumer ,is a vaild car to compete in the sactioning body SCCA racing, so by definition it is a Yenko Stinger.

The value of the Super Cars is something that I have not addressed at all as it is not relevant to the discusssion, IMO.

Charley,
No, I have not seen an original Yenko Window sticker for the Douglass Yenkos.

Stefano

10-07-2002, 08:23 PM

Rob,
I have seen no pictoral Documentation and Jack is confident that the cars were delivered without stripes other than the possibility of having the X11 pinstripes which he would have removed prior to the installation of the Yenko Stripe Kit, much like Yenko could have done on his Cannonsberg X11 code cars.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 08:30 PM

Stefano;
We were all 'in the dark' about the Douglas situation at one time or another, so I wouldn't discredit Vince due his opinion 'back in the day' that the cars might be Berger's. Vince verifys Yenko cars only, not COPO cars, which is why he would give a negative answer on a Douglas car. Vince is going by the paperwork, which does not support the Douglas COPO cars being Yenko cars.

I only bring Vince into this discussion because you brought Ed into it, both are noted authorities, and they disagree just like we do.

Stefano

10-07-2002, 08:41 PM

Marlin,
Ed not only knew and documented the story as well as verified and data based the Known Douglass Yenkos. He went out of his way to meet with Jack and discuss the situation in complete detail.

I have never seen a Document or letter from Vince stating that any of the Douglass Yenkos were not sold to the public as such. I would certainly like to see that.

He could verify that they are not on the Yenko inventory sheets, but we're already in agreement on this.

I wasn't trying to discredit Vince at all only point out that he couldn't be expected to verify something he wasn't aware of.

copolocater

10-07-2002, 08:52 PM

Marlin I'm asking you because of the reputation you have ,if you owned a Jack Douglass copo that was sold with Yenko stripes/badging and were going to restore the car and had original photos to document it along with a bill of sale how would you restore the car and when you sold it how would you promote the car?Trick question /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif I know you'll answer honestly. Brian you can answer too.

bkhpah

10-07-2002, 09:07 PM

According to Shor, he does not want any Yenko items on his Douglass COPO. He likes the X11 with fender pinstriping. I would aggree. The Douglass car is a nice piece on its own. Why cloud the situation with some stripes. It would seem to me that unaware buyers of the 1969 Yenko striped Douglass cars were taken advantage of. It has just taken 30+ years to find out. Did Jack Douglass explain to the buyers of the Yenko striped Douglass order that the cars were not part of Yenko Sports Cars Inc? Doubt it...BKH

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 09:34 PM

Tim;
Honest question, here's my honest answer. I would not put any Yenko identification on that car if it was mine. If paperwork was located that proved that there was an agreement, I would still be hesitant to do so because the car is not on the Inventory Sheets.

copolocater

10-07-2002, 09:39 PM

Honest answer, I quit, missed some good stuff on ebay today. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

hvychev

10-07-2002, 09:42 PM

Brian, Do you think people actually cared back then??!!! I'll bet that half if not more of the original buyers that bought Douglas Yenko's new in 69 had no idea who the hell Yenko even was let alone cared where the cars originated from or who striped them!!! I have talked to a person who bought a Cannonsberg Yenko/Douglas car used in 1970 and also who knows how many other people that were also around and in the muscle car/race scene of Chicago in the mid 60's to mid 70's and THEY never heard of Yenko. To the people that had bought the cars new most probably thought they were buying a factory 427 Camaro that had a cool set of stripes on it. These were just cool fast cars back then and this crap didn't matter till they escalated in value. Nobody really wants to admit that this whole disagreement stems about the value from a "real Cannonsberg" Yenko to a "Hinsdale Yenko". I know there has to be a way to seperate the two because like some posts have read if you counted all the cars that got stripe kits over the counter what would that do to the value of everyone elses "REAL" Yenko's? I know that I may be out of pocket here but this is the way im reading this.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-07-2002, 10:03 PM

Frank;
I think the YENKO name must have had some impact on the public, otherwise Jack would have left the cars as COPO's. Would he have paid this $400+/- (where does this $# come from anyway?) for the stripes and emblems if they didn't carry some recognition on the buying public?

I would agree with you that the general public didn't know what a Yenko was, but somebody who was willing to pay that much for a car should have had some knowledge - especially since the Hedrick car was cleaning up on the strips, and there was an aggressive ad campaign going on.

One of my buddies bought his '69 Yenko Camaro in Dec of '69 off a used car lot. The only thing that made him stop and look at the car were the stripes - except that he thought it was a Z28. Once he saw the 427 on the hood, he asked to test drive it. So, not everyone knew what was going on, it would have been especialy hard for him - he was just back from Vietnam.

moparts

10-07-2002, 10:18 PM

So the value of a Douglas _____________ (fill in the blank) will not be raised if it is certified a real Yenko?????????? And since when is the value of a car not relevent to a dealer?????????? And IMO its all about the money. Thats why origional 100 Stingers are bringing 15,000 to 20,000 and I sold 2 kit cars for 8,000. and that wasn't each!!!

shor

10-07-2002, 11:03 PM

As a follow up, I am not striping my Douglass Yenko, not because I am questioning it's being a Yenko. I just don't like stripes. It will still retain it's yenko badges and headrests.
This way everyone will be able to spot it at next year's reunion /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Jeff H

10-08-2002, 12:16 AM

Interesting thread to say the least. I'll toss in my 2 cents based on what I've read here. It appears there should be 2 definitions, a Canonsburg Yenko and a Douglass Yenko. The Canonsburg Yenko being the VIN's from the original list that came out. I would call them both Yenko's, but when it came time to sell it I would identify it as whichever one it is. That's my opinion and it doesn't mean much.

shor

10-08-2002, 12:30 AM

Wanna see a picture? This is back in February 02
1969 JDY 252 (http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/shorcoffee/lst?.dir=/1969+JDY+252&.view=t)

Stefano

10-08-2002, 12:39 AM

Frank,
There have been no other Double COPO Camaros or COPO Chevelles direct ordered by a Yenko Sports Car Authorized dealer and then sold to the public as Yenkos.If more are found then these too should be considered Yenkos.

The stripes were available after not before the Douglass Yenko order and primarilly I would suspect for replacement on any of the cars which were originally done that way.

For example a dented fender/door/1/4 panel which needed to be restriped or stripes which peeled off for one reason or another.

I can tell you from experience that it only took three to four winters of salt and snow to completely rust through Camaro floor pans if the car was not cleaned and maintained.

The stripes on a year round driven high mile car wouldn't have faired as well.

The Clary's can correct me if I am wrong but we have not seen the use of Yenko Stripes by any other Dealer any where at a date earlier than on the Jack Douglass Yenkos.

Brian,
To insinuate that people were taken advantage of by Jack Douglasss and It took 30 yeras to find out this fact is simply preposterous.

My opinions are with Frank, people wouldn't have given a rat's hynee about where the cars had been invoiced to. They were buying the L72 9561 COPO option and 9737 Yenko Sports car conversion option. It is only today that some (actually only a few) people can't acknowledge that this did indeed take place and that it is a special foot note in Yenko and Super Car History.

Tim,
You asked a question to which the answer was a foregone conclusion.

While I may get flamed,I have all the deepest respect for the late great Don Yenko, I can only speculate if he were around to be asked if these Yenkos were considered in his total count?

I propose, why then was there no other dealer in the Chicago Illinois market to sell Yenkos? The answer is very simple. Jack Douglass was the only authorized dealer in the territory.

Belair62

10-08-2002, 12:40 AM

Steve do you have photos of your car when delivered from Douglass with all the Yenko stuff on it ?

bkhpah

10-08-2002, 12:41 AM

Frank, If you read my pior post, I said the same exact think. Most people would not or did not car if it was a Canonsburg car. Only now is it a big deal. There is the Douglass camp and the Yenko camp, that is clear. There is a new camp starting to form, It's the I am just tired of this topic camp...BKH

bkhpah

10-08-2002, 12:54 AM

Stefano, are you telling me that if you bought a Douglass stiped Yenko new, and now just found out that it was not a Canonsburg car from the start you would be happy about it? How many people would rather own a Douglass Yenko over a Canonsburg Yenko? This might be an interesting poll. It might not mean a hill of beans then, but it is relivent now....BKH

shor

10-08-2002, 01:31 AM

This has been a fun topic so far. The responses and posts have been quite numerous. It's as if a bunch of us are sitting around on a summer night at some drive-in or diner somewhere discussing the Douglass thing ! The internet really is a great medium for this sort of thing.

Brian, your question to pick one; a Douglass Yenko, or a Cannonsburg Yenko is a little tough. There are inherent monetary values associated with each.
A Cannonsburg Yenko is just that. It comes without controversy. It is without question.
A Douglass Yenko is going to come with controversy. We have proven that over the last two days right here! There are two sides to this camp. I don't see this changing. Opinions have been made on this issue.
I think the Douglass Yenko's are really neat, they have some extra little options that really set them apart, only 5 or 6 of 25 have surfaced, and they have a great story to go along with them /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif
It's not like these cars have traded hands much, but I do see a demand and interest for them. Hey, time will tell /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
You tell me...are you really getting tired of this topic?
How did you feel when the car was first trailered into your shop? I sensed a certain excitement on your part.
While you were going over my car I was drooling over your low mileage Yenko. It was a fun day for me. We were both enjoying Yenkos. One was built in Pennsylvania and spent it's whole life there, the other was built in Illinois and had spent it's whole life there.
I can't wait till next year's reunion!! Rob, sign me up! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

copolocater

10-08-2002, 02:01 AM

This isn't durrogatory but I'd love to see a red black Yenko stripe Douglass copo endura bumper car atlas wheels. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

hvychev

10-08-2002, 03:48 AM

I respect all of the members of this site. Every one contributes when they post no mater the subject or content of their posts. But in this case I have STRONG feelings about this topic. The CAMP I come from is that a member in good standing of this site COULD most likely suffer as a result of this thread in relation to the sale of his YENKO Camaro and what he will get for it dollar wise and that my friends is serious business especially when that is what you do for a living. I don't know how any one could be sick of this subject. Mabye because it isn't your car. Would you be sick of it if it was? I am just venting because this is all supposed to be for the fun of the hobby and to learn about and read new ideas related the cars we love so much. This is different though. The thread does keep going and going with seems like no end or final decision but that is why this forum is so great with all of the KNOWLEDGEABLE people on hand a complex issue like this should be addressed as it will probably come up in the future. Mabye to resolve this a poll is in order. I am not siding with Stefano for any other reason than I would side with any one else on this site that I have learned from. Regaurding this issue I just think we are being a little to anal retentive and this may affect members of this site that own or plan to sell their Douglas cars.

Stefano

10-08-2002, 05:03 AM

Frank ,Thanks for the kind words your spiff check is in the mail /ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

Jeff, Your reply is right on target with my thoughts.

First and foremost we have the physical evidence, the cars themselves. Several of the found examples are low miles original drive train COPOs. We also have the first party dealer principal himself and several of his key employees as well as family members Who also verify the occurrence.

A signed and notorized certificate of Douglass Yenko verification is used by Jack to Authenticate his verified COPOs.

The COPO Connection recognizes these COPOs as Yenkos and they carry a full Yenko Vehicle certificate with Douglass specific information and details.

We have the fact that Douglass was authorized by Yenko to sell the cars as Yenkos. (Eveyone look up the long definition of authorize). Since Don sold more than one Stripe kit to Douglass for the express intent of installing them on his direct order COPOs as well as the fact that he allowed Jack to advertise and Represent Yenko Sports Cars, Inc. is better than any written agreement without the physical evidence could ever be.

We have Estate Documents in Don's own hand writing stating that the situation took place as Douglass has stated while pegging the number of cars at 23. Where did Don get the number from. Has anyone ever wondered?

Yet for some it is not enough. They still ask for more.

I was not the first one to put the Yenko name ,badge and crest on these Camaros it was Jack Douglass and he purchased the items to do so and with the full knowledge of his express intent acknowledged and supported by Don Yenko himself.

To not install, at a minimum, the emblems and crest on one of these special COPOs as they were delivered to the consumer and as they were viewed in awe by their competition would be a great injustice to the Legacy of Don Yenko.

Jack didn't make the Douglass cars Yenkos, Don Did. Don's own word says that 23 of the Douglass ordered COPOs were sold as Yenkos. I have one of those 23 Yenkos.(Period)

COPO

10-08-2002, 11:50 AM

Stefano, you sure you're not a lawyer?? You lay out an excellent case, Johnny Cochran look out! Time will tell what the market thinks of this issue. One of the best threads ever on the site IMO. Great discussion and good points on each side /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif .

JoeC

10-08-2002, 12:43 PM

Johnny Cochran would say "If the vin list don't fit - you must acquit" /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
I say "If Don didn't make it - you can't fake it" /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-08-2002, 01:03 PM

Stefano;
Show me the paperwork!! The estate document doesn't even remotely lay out an agreement (ie; contract, meeting of the minds) between Don and Jack. I don't understand the significance of your statement: "Don allowed Jack to advertise and represent Yenko cars" ?? How is that arrangement any different compared to the other 115 dealers in the network? All of the dealers were advertising and represent'n Yenko cars. All of this stuff is just heresay, and one of the parties is no longer here to tell us the other side. Yenko cars are on the inventory sheets, and that's a fact - Jack /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Frank, as for a member possibly having this discussion impact the sale of his car, I think it helps it! The Douglas COPO's have never gotten this much attention from this many people before, most people have never heard about the controversy. Like other guys say, let the market decide the value, not us. Personally, I thought the car up for auction was Mecum's, I didn't know it was Stefano's until he referenced it in a prior post. Somebody will probably bid it up and buy it just to enjoy the extra mystique /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

69rsss350

10-08-2002, 03:02 PM

Do you have to be present to bid, if not send info on how I can register please. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

Stefano

10-08-2002, 04:13 PM

Proxy Bids are accepted with prior approval from the auction along with a Bank Letter of Gaurantee. You can go to the web site and request the info you seek.
www.mecumauction.com (http://www.mecumauction.com)

COPO,
Was that an insult? You certainly qualify for Politician of the month with your last post /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Marlin and JoeC,
If you ever happen to be misfortunate enough to acquire one of the 22 Douglass Sold Yenkos, please call me first as I will be more than happy to purchase the car at a substantial discount to the Cannonsberg Yenkos, No B.S.

Dana does not own the other Dover White Douglass Yenko, it belongs to Gary Liko, in Florida and was restored to the original Yenko Stripe and Badge configuration by Milt Robson,(Thanks Milt). It also maintains the distinction of having been featured as a Yenko in Several Publications
(Just stating the facts guys)and carries the very next sequential Body Number to My Car.

The black and White Contrast is stunning in person, IMO.

BTW, Why did Don Build Yenko Chevelles in Dover White?

NWYENKO

10-08-2002, 05:06 PM

Is there an inventory of the other 20 Douglass cars denoting colors and transmissions?? What about other options on those cars? Did they all have chambered exhaust? I do have to agree with Marlin that if the cars don't glow in the dark from being parked on the contaminated lot behind Don's dealership, they are not Yenkos. This is not to take anything away from the Douglass cars as I think they are very unique especially after what I have learned following this thread. I think this entire discussion should have a positive impact on the value of those cars!! Just my $.02 worth Jim /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Stefano

10-08-2002, 06:04 PM

Jim,
What we have first and foremost is the Cars themselves as I have previously mentioned and this seems to be overlooked. Where did Don Yenko get the info. to quote the 22 Figure?

The only trans options were M40/Console and M21 close ratio.

All were X11 D80 Endura Bumper.

All were 9561 and 9737 w/factory tac and 140 Speedo.

At least most were to have been Chambered exhaust.

Radio equipment went from radio delete to AM/FM stereo.

All were to have the aux. lighting package.

Some, Power Steering.

Some, Rosewood Wheel

Some, Vinyl Top

Tinted Glass

None with RS.

Any period /correct Wheel Tire combo. was available for installation prior to delivery.

All standard 711 trim black interior.

2 White
1 Black for certain but probably 2
2 Red
2 Gold
2 Fathom Green
4 Daytona Yellow
2 Hugger Orange (4 total possible)
2 Lemans Blue
2 Dusk Blue
2 Silver
2 Rally Green

Jack has always stated 25 total while Don Yenko's number is 22 Jack Douglass Ordered Yenkos.

For many years I had heard but have never seen the proported extra Yenko Sheet with 20 to 25 additional Yenkos on it.

This story is Urban Legend and was routinely discussed at some of the local shows amungst the Super Car knowledgeable, but no I never seen it, nor have any confirmation that it even exists.

NWYENKO

10-08-2002, 06:19 PM

Thanks Stephano, How many are accounted for? Do you know of the survival of the silver ones?? What an awesome combination that would be!! Man, can you imagine showing up at a show with one of the other colors?? I almost got into it with a guy that told me that the Deuce was not real since it was a small block and was not green according to "the guy with the Handlebar mustache on TV". Great story about very unique cars and I think very desirable, however as I said IMHO still not "Yenkos". Seams like a subject that some of us will have to agree to disagree. Great topic. Look at the productive manhours lost. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif Jim

COPO

10-08-2002, 06:28 PM

Stefano, no insult, in fact, a compliment. Now your politician crack on the other hand........ /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-08-2002, 06:39 PM

Stefano;
If I ever happen to own a Douglas COPO car, you will get the first call - but the price will be higher than Brian's Yenko /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Just because Don quoted 22 cars doesn't mean that he had a contract with Douglas. It could mean that he sold Douglas 22 sets of stripes, it could mean anything - the only thing it tells me is that there was no 'meeting of the minds' if there is a difference in the amount of cars that each person says was sold under this proposed agreement; 22 vs. 25. If Don references the 22 cars, why didn't he refer (in writing) to the price paid for these stripes, or the other particulars (in writing) about the proposed agreement?

I agree to disagree, I don't want to beat a dead horse. My only point is that there is too little info to conclude that there was any formal contract between Don and Jack to create authentic copies of THE Yenko Camaro.

I hope your car does well at the auction,

copo9566aa

10-08-2002, 07:07 PM

Stefano
You have more info about 2 Hugger Orange (4 total possible) .

Stefano

10-08-2002, 08:17 PM

Lets see: Walks like a duck, talks like a Duck ,looks like a duck but Runs like a Yenko, therefore must be a COPO.

Has the same father and mother, but considered a Bastared since it was not conceived on a certain , radio active piece of Pa soil.

Chevy454

10-08-2002, 08:31 PM

I wouldn't necessarily take the "22" number to heart. Also in the estate document, Don mentions something like 500 Camaros, 350 Deuces...those numbers are from memory, but all the numbers he mentioned were WAY high.

Dad, feel free to correct me on the numbers above...

Stefano

10-08-2002, 09:04 PM

We all have a good idea on why the 500 #.

You have an estate document written by Don's own hand which states 350 Deuces, please share.

If Don had stated 1 or 100 wouldn't make a difference to corroborate that the event actually took place and that he had knowledge of it. No one can say it was done without his knowledge. It just happens that Jack Douglass had been Quoting the "25" Number for many years prior to the estate document ever having been revealed.

A reasonable person could be confident that Don didn't just pull the "22" out of a hat and his memory at the proximity to when he wrote the document would not be the same as it was in 1987 for a casual magazine interview. He didn't even refer to notes.

I beleive that we may be are starting to mix a fresh estate document(late 1969?) with a much later magazine interview/article.

When was the 'estate" document dated by the way?

hvychev

10-08-2002, 09:05 PM

Yes, Mr. Clary we have not heard from you about this since about 75 posts ago! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

By the way have we broken a post record yet? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

sixtiesmuscle

10-08-2002, 09:20 PM

So Marlin, if you were presented with a formal agreement between Douglass & Yenko, would you then concede, with all the other evidence, that the Douglass cars should be considered Yenkos?

Chevy454

10-08-2002, 09:27 PM

As I stated when I quoted the document, it was dated "September 19, 1969". Also, why the #500? Why the #350? Being as this article was being written for a magazine article, and that the other numbers are inflated, whose to say Don didn't "embelish" a little with the #22? And, I may be reading too much into it, but it almost sounds like he's bragging about it being "advantageous" for Douglass to use the stripes/emblems to "enhance retailing the merchandise." This was for a magazine article, so he had to make it sound good to the readers! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-08-2002, 09:39 PM

Mike;
Only if the wording of the agreement clearly states that Yenko was using Douglas as a subcontractor to modify cars on his behalf, and that Yenko had inventory sheets of these cars that Douglas was modifying. This agreement would be dated in '69 and signed by both Jack and Don, similar to the agreement with Colonial Chev. and Josh Darden. Then I would understand this arrangement to be similar to the Bill Thomas / Nickey arrangement, or the Harrell / Yenko arrangement.

A document like this would prove that there was a deal between the two, but I'm still not positive that I would consider them Yenko cars because I'm still hung up on Yenko cars having Yenko Chev. on the MSO/NICB paperwork.

You have me thinking harder though, /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif I can't just take verbal recollection at face value, if I did, and I purchased a Douglas car, I don't know that I could afford to be wrong - you know what I mean? I look at it from the perspective that I may only have one chance to buy a 427 Yenko supercar, and I don't want any doubt as to it's heritage. Other guys have a little (or a lot) more 'flexibility' in that area. I would have trouble sleeping at night wondering/doubting my purchase, if I had just spent that much money.

Stefano

10-08-2002, 09:45 PM

Ok I'll play the Devil's advocate.

Jack Douglass Direct ordered COPOs to sell as Yenkos. Don Yenko and Yenko Sports Cars ,Inc. were not aware of the situation in 1969 and they never found out either. The parts department at Yenko Chevy was ready for a clone Rush as they thought nothing of sending Jack 22 or so stripe kits without question.

Don Yenko was wealthy beyond anyones imagination and the royalties from the sale of Jack's cars meant nothing to him or his family.

Jack was never a Dealer in the Yenko Network. Don was feeling philanthropic ,when he included Jack's name.

Don did not have much of an ego and couldn't care less how many cars Yenko Sports Cars, Inc. sold to the public. Don didn't care that someone would steal his idea and use his name in an unauthorized fashion. He would never consider a car that wasn't invoiced to Cannonsberg one of his own.
Jack was a poor desperate car dealer and needed to steal from Don in order to be succesful.

This is why there was never any legal action against Jack or his dealership. The small unimportant Chicago Metro market was alowed to flounder because Don Yenko was a poor Business man.

Jack and Don never spoke when the saw each other at the various race tracks or taverns after the races for victory celebrations ,as they had no other common interests.

Jack made up very colorfull stories about Dona Mae and they are fictitious as the two never met.

 Yeah right, get real guys! .

I do appreciate all the positive private e-mails which I have received over the past few days in support of the Douglass Yenkos, but,Gentlemen ,Tom has opened up the forum and given everyone a chance to present their opinions and thoughts. We would all best be served if they were presented here in the open.
Everyone should be clear on my thoughts!

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-08-2002, 09:49 PM

Stefano;
I fully understand your position, and your logic behind it. I just respectfully disagree, and I'm 'real' - last time I checked /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Stefano

10-08-2002, 10:01 PM

Rob,
We have found eight Douglass Yenkos, a few of these are needing restoration.

The quote from September of 1969 would be fresh in his mind, as opposed to an interview in 1987. Don's numbers happen to be very close to Jack's. If Don wanted to embelish he could have done better than 22 as Douglass Chevrolet out sold Yenko Chevrolet in total retail volume by a substantial margin.

What estate Document pegs Yenko Deuce Production at 350 or even Camaros at 500. These would be very significant documents if they indeed do exist.

I would agree with you that Don was known for invoking a bit of creative licence to obtain a desired outcome.

Chevy454

10-08-2002, 10:09 PM

The exact same document that mentions the Douglass connection mentions the inflated build counts (500 & 350) of the other cars...I believe he gives a wildly high number for the Corvairs as well, but I have slept since I read the thing. If dad ever gets a second to sit down and post (we are swamped at work) then he could give some more details from the document. We have several documents, addressed to such people as the NHRA, AHRA, FIA, magazines, etc., where Don seemingly picked large numbers out of the air, for whatever reason.

So, did Jack order his batch of cars with the sole purpose of adding the stripes/emblems, or did this come about later for one reason or another?

shor

10-08-2002, 10:09 PM

Marlin, you talk about one chance to buy a Yenko supercar...

69 Copo Camaro's are going for mid 80's today.(restored)price/ blasco car (guestimate
69 Yenko Camaro's (cannonsburg) 120 to 150 The best unrestored example(Brian/ Kevin) just traded bet. 160 and 200(guestimate)
69 Douglass Yenko ??? What's it worth to you Marlin?

Mr70

10-08-2002, 10:11 PM

Where is Tom?
I read where Rob said he was in Indy,but it sure would be interesting to read if he has any other Letters or bulletins to ad to this debate.

Stefano
I look forward to attending the Mecum auction Nov.2nd.
Not so much about this Douglass/Copo/Yenko Camaro,but to look over Charlies LS-6 Convert.There is at least one more Triple black M-22,ZL-2,LS-6,Ragtop out there. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Stefano

10-08-2002, 10:26 PM

Marlin,
I was using an euphemisum. Yeah your real, a real pain in the *&&. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

What about Corpotate Books from Yenko Sports Cars Inc. or Yenko Chevrolet they could have special notations in the Corportate minutes as well as document the cash flow from Douglass to Yenko.

Do these books exist?

shor

10-08-2002, 10:30 PM

Stefano

10-08-2002, 10:35 PM

I have my sources and the have spotted Tom at a convention not to far (2 hours drive in a Douglass Yenko)from the Old Douglass Chevrolet /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

copolocater

10-08-2002, 10:39 PM

If I worked in the parts department I might remember having to ship 20 or so stripe kits,badges etc.they might know of the relasionship ?Any one we could ask?What about John Connelly he used to work there he might have knowledge?Warren's another good one.Just some leads.Stephano carpal tunnel yet? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Stefano

10-08-2002, 10:59 PM

Rob,
Jack was upset with the fact that Don Yenko had lead him to believe that in order to obtain one of the Yenko cars you had to go through him. No, Marlin it is not in writing anywhere.

Jack says that Don didn't come out and say it that direct but it was implied.

There were substantial floor plan and allocation credits which Don kept for his own dealership by passing the cars through Cannonsberg.

It was Jack's Discovery of the "Shippers" Which included both COPO order numbers which lead Jack to call GM direct.

Jack was in full Support of the Yenko Sports Car marketing Campaign and wanted to get back some of the business he had been loosing to Nickey Chevrolet.

He always intended to sell the cars as Yenkos.

The Yenko name meant more to Jack as a Roadracer than possibly to any of the eventual Douglass Yenko Buyers.

Jack had every intent to capitalize on the Yenko package which is why he agreed to take two truck loads of Yenkos and was one of the very first dealers to receive a shipment.

If Don hadn't left the shippers in two of the Camaros we would not be having this discusion.

JoeC

10-08-2002, 10:59 PM

Where did Ed C. get the list of vin numbers for the Douglas cars? Ed states that one car may not have had the Yenko stripes but if Yenko sold 22 stripe kits and there was 25 cars maybe 3 did not get Yenko stripes. If this is true, which cars did not get the stripes? If you have a Yenko striped Douglas car and you dig into the history of it and find the original owner who says it never had Yenko stripes - it could be an unfortunate situation if the car was purchased at a Yenko price.

Stefano

10-08-2002, 11:02 PM

Rick,
I gave them my files with some old advertisments, which they copied. We will get it correct for the catalogue, I hope.

Rat_Pack

10-08-2002, 11:10 PM

Stefano and Shor, restore your cars the way they came from the dealer, with the stripes and badges. In 1969 they were sold as Yenkos, today they should be recognized the same way. To me there is no difference in a Douglass Yenko and one from PA as they were authorized to add the emblems and stripes at both locations. Lets not forget they originated from the same source, Chevrolet, not Yenko. We cannot argue whether the business dealings between two men over 30 years ago were right or wrong when one of them is no longer alive. Would they even care about what happened then anyways? Don't think so.

If there is an advantage between the Douglass Yenkos and the Cannonsburg Yenkos it would have to go to the Douglass cars. More options and better color selection. I too would love to see a Garnet Red/Black stripe Yenko Camaro or even a Dusk Blue/white stripe car. When it comes to values of vehicles, let the market decide that. Who here would have given over $100k for a restored Yenko 5 years ago? Not many on this board, but most of us would love to find one under that price now. Same goes for Motion modified cars. I passed on one 10 years ago because of that, it was a modified car. Now I wish I had bought it as it being a "modified" car does not seem to bother anyone now.

The Bill Thomas/Nickey cars were brought up in an earlier reply and those cars will eventually fall into the same category as the Douglass cars. They were built in both locations but were sold as Nickey 427 Camaros, but not all of them. Some were never even delivered to Nickey nor were they invoiced to them. Does this make them any less desirable or valuable than ones sold out of Nickey Chevrolet? I think not and I bet some others will agree.

To paraphrase words of the immortal Gump :"that is all I got to say about that"................... /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif .................everyone have a good night...........RatPack.....................

Stefano

10-08-2002, 11:21 PM

JoeC,
Glad to see that you are paying attention to the details.

We have a Situation where an original owner purchased a Double COPO from Jack Douglass soon after it was delivered to the dealership and not Yet Striped or readied for sale as a Yenko.

The sales person closed the deal without Jack's prior knowledge/permission buy telling the customer he could have the car for $400.00 less than the price of the other Yenkos, with out the Yenko Package and the customer jumped at the deal. The sales person actually explained the Douglass/Yenko deal and why there was a $400.00 royalty due Don Yenko.

To this day Jack doesn't recall it ever taking place, but he and his general manager agreed that it could have happened.

I would call this the exception which proves the rule.

All the current authenticated/certified Douglass Yenkos have a history of having been striped/badged since new.

sYc

10-08-2002, 11:27 PM

Guys, here goes. Yes, I have a large amount of the paperwork from Yenko Chevrolet, including VIN numbers, as well as quite a bit fron Don's own stuff. I feel much of the information contained is accurate, but not all. I can only speculate as to why Don did this. As per Douglass, Rob has quoted the part that mentions the Douglass cars. This was taken from an article being done on Yenko Chevrolet. The draft I have is the one where Don edited it. At this point, that is all I have found on Douglass, except of course for the cars that are listed on the inventory sheets from Canonsburg, sold by Douglass.

I am not doubting that Jack was a Yenko dealer, nor that he bought stripes/emblems from Don for use on his COPOs, nor am I doubting that they were advertised/sold as Yenkos. Nor was I questioning Jack's or Stephano's integrity. That was never my intent. The point I wanted to make was this. In my opinion (sYc), these cars are not Yenkos in the same way as Canonsburg cars. They are Douglass COPOs with unique ties to Yenko, and should be listed as such, maybe with an * after COPO. Any of these cars that were sold new with Yenko stripes and/or emblems are entitled to do so now. I had hoped to see one of these special cars (Dover white one)at the reunion, but will have to wait until Shor brings his car next year. If it is shown with Yenko stripes and/or emblems, it will certaintly add to the event, which has become well known for the displaying of rare and unusual cars and related artifacts. Tom

sixtiesmuscle

10-08-2002, 11:33 PM

How about Douglass Copo/Yenkos with an asterisk, or Douglass Yenko/Copos?

copolocater

10-08-2002, 11:48 PM

RatPack-Wow!!Tom thats all I wanted to hear, recognize them for what they are ,I'll accept that.I can't wait to see Yenko items on a new color.Shor first one in line gets the goodies. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

sYc

10-08-2002, 11:51 PM

Douglass COPO/Yenko is fine with me. If the car had been listed this way on the auction site, I would not have made my original post. Tom

copolocater

10-09-2002, 12:01 AM

Mike in your case Douglass/Copo Yenko that was driven by Nickey Chevrolet and did a burnout in the parking lot!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Stefano

10-09-2002, 12:36 AM

Tom,
What makes you think I still won't have my Dover White Douglass COPO*Yenko to bring to the reunion?

It will take more than Cannonsberg $$$,$$$.00 for me to cut it loose.

Jeff H

10-09-2002, 12:47 AM

If you look at it from the point of view of the original owner, then they were under the impression they were buying a Yenko and it was being sold as a Yenko with Don's blessing, how can it not be a Yenko? It's a Yenko! But, it should still be labled as a Douglass Yenko vs a Canonsburg Yenko(which is a term that has just been made up recently). They're both Yenko's. Now for the potential investor that wants to buy a Yenko, either car will do as long as they know the details. Some people prefer one car or the other. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif I'd like either but I can't afford one so it's a moot point.

Stefano

10-09-2002, 12:49 AM

Troy,
You post has brought tears to my eyes. I will change my estate trust document and give you first right of refusal on the purchase of any Douglass Car I may have at the time /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Belair62

10-09-2002, 01:22 AM

Find me a Dusk blue one and you can call it whatever the hell you want !!!! My Chevelle is a very rare COPO Lillard Yenko.

1969 California built Chevelle COPO*/Lillard*/Yenko*/

Chevy454

10-09-2002, 01:40 AM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>
Tom,
What makes you think I still won't have my Dover White Douglass COPO*Yenko to bring to the reunion?

<hr></blockquote>

Not to be nosey, but how come you didn't bring it with you to Collinsville this year?

Mr70

10-09-2002, 01:51 AM

Stefano
Ater reading all that has been written here about this subject,I think it is safe to say that the Douglass COPO/Yenko Camaros....Have earned thier Stripes,Literally!

To say"if Jack Douglass didn't find those Shipper labels with the COPO numbers on them,none of this would have ever happened",IS A GROSS UNDERSTATEMENT!

Now is it possible to find out which cars were the ones that Jack actually found the shippers in that started this whole mess? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Were their Douglass COPO/Yenko Chevelles that were included in this as well?

mr gasser

10-09-2002, 01:57 AM

Marlin then I want my duece to be a hurst performance yenko from MarveMinneman only one came with hurst wheels......................... /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

Stefano

10-09-2002, 03:18 AM

Tom,
I don't think you are being nosey but I thought I explained as I had to many others.

It was a case were I had loaned my trailer to a good freind and neighbor as well as site member to store one of his cars as he expands his garage.

Due to circumstances beyond his control. I was not able to get my trailer back (plan A). The one I lined up was three car open and the weather was very bad (plan b).

Next, I had one more shot at getting another one which was a long 30 footer and parked in the middle of a tight circle drive. When we went to hook the truck to the trailer I would have had to drive accross some very wet and expensive landscaping. The weather was still bad and no sway bars on the trailer. I never tow without one. That was (plan C)

So we left empty handed with the thought that someone else could bring it down Saturday for the cruise and that plan failed as well. I was still happy to be there even without the car.

Charley Lillard

10-09-2002, 03:55 AM

Now I get it..Stefano has no car.. This is all just a very long Joke. Ever notice that you never see Stefano and Marlin at the same time ? Hmmmmm....

69rsss350

10-09-2002, 05:12 AM

Stefano, if it will truly take more than Canonsburg $$$,$$$ for you to part with your car, why are you auctioning it? Seems like a waste of time, unless you truly are getting that appearance fee of free beer or $$$$. Maybe there will be someone there that hasn't read this thread and thinks the bastard child really is a legitimate heir. When I send a car to an auction, I send it to sell and I attend two auctions a week. Good luck, hey, maybe Charlie Sheen or Mr. October will be there. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

JoeC

10-09-2002, 11:18 AM

I looked up the Mecum Auction Lot # 309 and almost split my coffee on my keyboard! /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif The picture shows a white Camaro with hockey stick stripes. Here is the ad.........
1969 Chevrolet Camaro Yenko
1 of 2 white Yenkos.
This car was sold new at Jack Douglas Chevrolet in Chicago. Recently the C.O.P.O Yenko Registry has accepted the Douglas Cars to be true Yenkos.
All this posting about Yenko stripes and the car doesn't even have Yenko stripes on it? /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif Who is the "C.O.P.O Yenko Registry" ? Is Mecum talking about ED C. or Tom C.? I thought Tom C. said he does not think of this car as a "true Yenko" as the ad states. Does Ed C. say that Yenko made white Yenko Camaros? Yenko only used 6 colors and white was not one of them.
This looks like false advertising to me.

MikeA

10-09-2002, 11:50 AM

Just when you thought it was over.... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Rat_Pack

10-09-2002, 12:51 PM

Joe, have you not been reading this post? It is not only the stripes that has been of concern but the whole package and the fact that these cars were sold new as Yenko Camaros. Lets not get into more bashing of this topic. <ul type="square"> Does Ed C. say that Yenko made white Yenko Camaros? Yenko only used 6 colors and white was not one of them.
This looks like false advertising to me. [/list]
The color issue is what makes these cars unique, they were not limited to the six colors that Yenko ordered because Jack Douglass circumvented the system. White is a correct color for a Yenko Camaro sold new at Jack Douglass Chevrolet. As far as false advertising, there is nothing stated that is not true to the car. Now I too was surprised about the hockey stick stripes, but hey they look good. So do the Yenko stripes on the other white car in Florida.

It sounds like from replies last night that the consensus is a Jack Douglass built Yenko is a Yenko. Great to see that this discussion will end soon?............... /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

Stefano, if this does not sell you can send it down here and I will be glad to keep it for you until first right of refusal, just tell your lawyers where it is at.. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif...................RatPack................ .......

photo credit goes to Mecum Auctions & Stefano

mnyenko

10-09-2002, 02:07 PM

Stefano,
I had looked at this car when it was for sale in WI.The seller told me it was a Douglas copo.He also told me it was never striped as a Yenko.How can you be so sure he is wrong?
If Don sold them 22 stripe sets did some get used on Chevelles?Do you think the copos sold with out stripes were Douglas/Yenkos?Earl

hvychev

10-09-2002, 02:33 PM

You guys have got to be kidding me.

Steve Shauger

10-09-2002, 04:03 PM

That's the point who's kidding who?

Stefano

10-09-2002, 04:10 PM

Here we go again, I spoke to Dana on several occassions, in order to modify the info. on his site .It is not meant to decieve and will hopefully be adjusted very soon.

There is a great deal of work involved with setting up one of these auctions and he and his crew are working literally around the clock.

Anyone who chooses to bid will have access to all the accurate info. needed prior to the auction.

Out of repect to sYc ,I will refer to the Douglass cars both Camaros and Chevelles per the instructions on this site and if sYc would like to remove the link to the Mecum site, I will not have a problem with it.

I will however not refer to any of these special cars as anything less than what they are, to please anyone.

I have secured an unbiased ,professional legal rendered opinion on the topic. (no ,I will not disclose it, get your own or purchase the car it goes with the car.)

I have stated on many occassions that my Dover White Yenko was restored and presented as a Berger Car per the info Vince Emme provided to the previous owner. I have only cleaned it up, added a few items original to the car and enjoyed it for approx. 1,000 miles this past summer.

They didn't even have any idea that it was a Jack Douglass Car at the time. It was only once an NICB report was run that it was known to have been delivered to Jack Douglass Chevrolet.

Earl,
I don't mind the question unless you qustion the validity of my statements.

I introduced the owner of that car who also happens to have owned numerous other Yenkos to Jack Douglass. He knew nothing of the Douglass COPO*Yenko story untill he heard it first from me and then Jack himself.

It was 100% up to him as what to do with the info. Some people will do anything, even change an original Yenko to aviod controversy(but that is another story)

Jack even commented about how well the stripes matched the scheme of the Dover White/ Black vinyl top cars how he could have sold more than the two he did.

I was the high bidder when he ran the car at auction years ago, as the number of people who new the Douglass story and were present could have been counted on your fingers at the time.

While many may have, I hid nothing from the seller about the Douglass Story , in which Jack says that all his COPOs were sold as Yenkos (save for the one exception which proves the rule and it was a Hugger Orange COPO which Jack wasn't aware of ).

The previous owner had told me on many occassions that it was not one of the Douglass Yenkos simply because Vince Emme had said so and Vince had a list of the "Douglass Yenkos" as well.

That was his arguement to me, and contrary to what Jack Douglass Himself had told the previous owner.

I had looked at the car a few years back, and data based the pertinant numbers, but never needed to search for evidence that the car had Yenko emblems as all were to have been sold that way. I had even resolved not to call this car by its true name untill there was more evidence provided.

ssl78 came with me when I went to pick it up. Since the car has all its original sheet metal but for one door skin, it still maintains all its since filled, body piercings for the Yenko emblems in the correct Douglass location/ fashion and it was ssl78 who pointed this out to me infront of the previous owner who had never even bothered to look and was very surprised.

When the seller Dug out his notes from discussions with prior owners,written by his own hand ,the notes also mentioned that it was striped and badged prior to the first repaint. He had thought that the notes belonged to another one of his prior cars and was surprised to see the info. in his own hand writting from many years ago. (He had this car for some time).

On another note the auction is not a "NO RESERVE" auction and has never been represented as such. None of the cars I am running are listed as NO RESERVE.

Yes they are all really for sale, but must meet my minimun financial objective. If you do not understand this format, don't agree with the way the cars are represented or believe my statements ,then do not bid on the cars. (This is not e-bay)

mnyenko

10-09-2002, 04:30 PM

Stefano,
Thanks for your answers to my questions.It is a very nice car.Earl

Kurt S

10-09-2002, 05:23 PM

We were voting? /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
I've known about the Douglas cars for about 4-5 years now, after being made aware of them by another member of this board.

I agree that Douglas Yenkos are Yenkos that were authorized by Yenko and built and striped with his consent. The corroborated evidence show that Don and Jack agreed that Jack could order the cars, apply the Yenko striping, and market them as Yenkos.

What is a Yenko anyway? My definition would be: A COPO that was specially decalled as a Yenko and marketed as such. They basically were a marketing ploy for a special model.
The Douglas Yenko cars clearly fit that definition. The car supported the marketing and they were authorized and supported by Yenko. I can't see that it matters if they were striped in PA or IL.
BTW, nice research on the Douglas cars, Stefano.

Attached is a pic of my 69 BB, didn't realize I had a Douglas Yenko til now. But the POP says Georgia??? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Stefano

10-09-2002, 06:51 PM

Kurt,
You can have the first authorized official Jack Douglass COPO*Yenko Camaro replica! Cool car, what engine?

Can we get an official rendering from CRG on the topic, or maybe a concenssus?

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-09-2002, 07:00 PM

Kurt;
QUOTE: "corroborated evidence show that Don and Jack agreed". "The car supported the marketing and they were authorized and supported by Yenko".

What corroberating evidence of an agreement are you referring to? I have yet to see any evidence??

QUOTE: "What is a Yenko anyway? My definition would be:..." I would add to your definition that the car was ordered by and MSO'd to Yenko Chev. just like a Baldwin Motion car was ordered by and MSO'd to Baldwin Chev.

Stefano

10-09-2002, 07:15 PM

We understand the distinction between a Motion Car and a Baldwin /Motion car. They are similar yet different and the sequence of events which seperates the two are not in question.

Evidence can be other than written. Written evidence can also be wrong or misstated or even slanted. This will also apply to vailid business contracts. I would say some of the evidence was emperical.

The market today has established that one is more valuable in a similar situation than the other, but that gap is closing ,as any cars which Joel Rosen built are both desirable and rare and maintain a unique and important part of Super Car History.

Is a Motion car not a Super Car in your eyes because it does not have an MSO from Baldwin. Or a Harrell car from Gibb or Courtesy not a Super car because the MSO was not to Harrell?

Stefano

10-09-2002, 07:31 PM

Joe Yenko used more than six colors to Include Red and White on his Cannonsberg Invoiced Chevelles!

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-09-2002, 09:40 PM

Stefano;

I'm sorry, I just don't consider verbal recollections from 30 years ago to be enough evidence for me, whether you consider it 'empirical' evidence is your choice. I would feel much more comfortable with something in writing, and I believe that if there are this many people still around that were involved with this back in the day, they would still have something in writing to show us.

I would need a Motion car to have an MSO from Baldwin in order for me to consider it a Baldwin-Motion car. Harrell was not a dealer, there won't be any MSO's in his name, so I'm ok with the Harrell cars.

Tim F

10-09-2002, 10:29 PM

Go Steve-o! Slap wood in'em. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Stefano

10-09-2002, 10:48 PM

Marlin,
Ok, can I please have a Copy of the written agreements between Motion and Baldwin, All the other (other than the one you already mentioned) dealers in the Yenko Network in 1967,1968 and 1969, Nickey and Thomas, Dana and Nickey, Gibb and Yenko, Gibb and Harrell, Nickey and Harrell as well as Harrell and Yenko.

I know that their are documents to substantiate their relationships such as Invoices and Memos, but I want to see the written business plan contract and written territorial protection. I don't question the relationships just want to see what the Document that Douglass should have signed looks like, for when I go digging in his attic /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

I don't call statements from the "Horses mouth" emperical!

sixtiesmuscle

10-09-2002, 10:52 PM

Enough already. PLEASE stop the madness!!!

copolocater

10-09-2002, 11:07 PM

I want to thank everybody that has spent time on this subject I personally would like to see it continue.All you guys that are watching this subject ain't watchin ebay!!!I got some good buys.Yahooooo /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

hvychev

10-09-2002, 11:11 PM

Have any of you guys tried to read this whole thread from post #1? I couldn't do it. My brain cracked in halffffffffffffff..... Too much to read!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

NWYENKO

10-09-2002, 11:13 PM

I think Stephano is trying to get to 1100 posts before Marlin reaches 1300. That's what this is really about!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif Jim

JoeC

10-09-2002, 11:13 PM

I don't want to say anymore about Douglas but since this thread is fired up I like to say something about Yenko. If you don't want to read this just click your mouse. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Some of you guys don't seem to appreciate what Don Yenko did. He was more then just a car dealer. There was the Yenko Chevrolet Dealership and then there was (sYc) Yenko SportsCars Inc. SYC was recognized by ACCUS as a manufacturer of production automobiles. ACCUS stands for Automotive Competition Committee of the United States. This organization did the licensing between sanctioning bodies in the U.S., and was the U.S. representative to FISA, the international auto racing coordination body. SYC manufactured cars.
Tom has a wood crate full of documents which he showed me and others at the reunion showing SYC was a manufacturer. I wish I had taken the Evelyn Wood speed reading course because there is a lot of folders in there. I read as much as I could until Tom slammed the wooden crate lid on my fingers and pried the crate away from me. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif (just kidding Tom but I would love to read through more of that stuff)
Beginning in 1965, SYC purchased base vehicles from Chevrolet for conversion, then SYC performed the conversion. The car was no longer a Chevrolet. It was a car manufactured by SYC. I am not rewriting history. This is clearly stated in the 1966 SCCA rule book where the Stinger is listed as a 2 seat sports car manufactured by SYC not by Chevrolet. It is the same with the other Yenko Cars. Tom has many documents that show this. In the document Rob C. mentions, Don stated the SYC automobile production figures which were all higher then what is known today. In one letter dated Aug. 1967 Don said he planed to increase SYC production to 600 vehicles. My point is that the cars that Don built were manufactured by SYC not by Chevrolet. Shelby did the same thing. His cars are listed in the SCCA rule book as manufactured by Shelby American not by Ford. These guys were living the American dream building their own cars and putting their name on them.
If you read an original Yenko Camaro window sticker it states "FINAL ASSEMBLY POINT CANONSBURG PENNSYLVANIA" not Norwood Ohio. It is understandable that Don would be angry if someone were to disregard his SYC process and make their own cars. It was not right back in 1969 and not right today. SYC manufactured the Yenkos not Chevrolet. IMO

copolocater

10-09-2002, 11:24 PM

/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif A set of stripes and badges added on 69s consumates production ? Manufacturing?

hvychev

10-09-2002, 11:28 PM

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>
It is understandable that Don would be angry if someonewere to disregard his SYC process and make their own cars. It was not right back in 1969 and not right today. SYC manufactured the Yenkos not Chevrolet.IMO

<hr></blockquote>

Joe are you saying that Jack Douglas illegally made copys of these cars????????? /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

Mr70

10-09-2002, 11:40 PM

Nice buy on those Ebay S/W Gauges Copoloco...

JoeC

10-09-2002, 11:47 PM

Why was Don angry and why did he want to fly to Douglas and kick his butt? (As per Donna Mae's memory)I guess because Don would rather have had sent the Yenkos through normal process. /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif

copolocater

10-09-2002, 11:49 PM

Love them S/Ws /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

copo9566aa

10-09-2002, 11:58 PM

Similar history with Shelby and Shelby Europa " built " by Claude Dubois. Europa (http://people.freenet.de/pony/sheleur.htm) /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Stefano

10-10-2002, 12:03 AM

Joe,
I couldn't agree with your post any more. Where we differ in opinion is that Jack Douglass was a positive part of that history, especially since he was familiar with Yenko and his exploits as a United States automobile Manufacturer and racer from the roadrace courses, where they both spent time.

The only reason the racing Stingers and Shelbys were painted white up to including 1966 is that those were the colors designated for the United States Mfgs.,like Green for the British cars and Red for the Italian Mfgs.

The L72 Iron block Super Cars are that which evolved from the efforts, ideas as well as passions of Don Yenko, just like the 428 Cobra Jet Shelby Mustangs were the eventual evolution of the first Shelby hand built race cars.

Great post!

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 12:07 AM

sYc was a manufacturer? What are you smokin, Joe? Did the titles say Chev or sYc? Yenko was a transplanter/modifier/converter but by no means a manufacturer. Did he have an assembly line and build these cars from the ground up?????? I have read every post in this thread and thought most were informative or at least had some kind of validity, but you, sir are way the HELL out there! GM made the damn cars, Yenko converted them. A retraction is in order!

Belair62

10-10-2002, 12:19 AM

What he said was SYC manufactured the YENKOS not the Camaro itself....and I agree.

hvychev

10-10-2002, 12:23 AM

Joe I still do not understand how it was illegal. It has been established through this 170 post thread that they had SOME type of aggreement may it have been spoken, written, etc. They had agreed that it would be permitted as long as Don recieved a royalty.

As far as what you said about Don being a legit manufactuer like a GM, Ford, Chrysler that is nuts. You might as well consider the companys in Elkhart IN. that convert passenger vans manufacturers as well.

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 12:25 AM

Belair, manufactured is not a relative term. You either build it or you convert it. So what you are saying is that Yenkos aren't Chevys? Please stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stefano

10-10-2002, 12:40 AM

Joe,
Another very good question. I would think that we can agree that Don and Vince Piggins had come to an understanding that he would retail at least 500 Camaros through his sYc network. This was a very potentially lucrative situation for Don. I would aslo speculate that they had conversations about dealer direct orders and that Don's head start and marketing campaign should be a huge advantage. But, if any dealer were to inquire they would be given the necessary paremeters to order only that which they inquired about per the "Parts Sales and Service Agreement" Which governs the Dealer Mfg relationship for all Chevrolet Dealers. Marlin, I have never seen Yenkos agreement to purchase and sell COPOs from GM as Yenkos, but he did do it.

It appears that Jack Douglass was the only dealer to challenge the process as Don had lead him to believe that there was no other way to obtain the special cars.

If I had been in Don's shoes the thought of all my ideas and work going out the window would have made me upset at the outset. It is also material that Jack and Don agreed that part of their deal was that Jack would not disclose the order procedure and direct availability of the cars to anyone else.

This is why any L72 Super car has direct ties to Yenko, he is the father of the Super Car COPOs.

JoeC

10-10-2002, 12:41 AM

SCCA recognized Yenko Sportscars Inc. as a manufacturer
ACCUS recognized Yenko Sportscars Inc. as a manufacturer
Original Yenko window sticker states "FINAL ASSEMBLY POINT CANONSBURG PENNSYLVANIA
Tom has the paperwork and it is not one piece but many.
I never said and do not believe that the Douglas cars are illegal. I just don't think they are exactly the same as the other Yenkos. They are great cars just as all hi po Chevrolets are.

hvychev

10-10-2002, 12:47 AM

"FINAL ASSEMBLY, CANNONSBERG PA" Is that on the actual GM window sticker or on what we call in the car biz an addendum(SP?) which is a dealer generated supplamental window sticker that reflects any adds or conversion done on a specific vehicle?

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 12:50 AM

JoeC, spin it however you like and whether those racing organizations recognized Yenko as a manufacturer or not doesn't make him one. One last time...Yenko was NOT a manufacturer, he was a converter. I am the one that originally rated this thread as five star,now I wish it would just go away. GM built the cars. Period.

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 12:56 AM

BTW Stefano, even in 1969 the 400.00 per car profit that Don may or may not have received (no proof has been given other than your hearsay from Jack) was probably less than what Don made selling the average new car off his lot. I don't think that $8800 was gonna make him a rich man.

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 12:58 AM

hvychevy, I guarantee you that was not a GM window sticker.

Stefano

10-10-2002, 01:02 AM

I want to clearify that I agree with Joe in that per the SCCA both sYc and Shelby American,Inc. qualified per the given definition of a mfg, This amounted to a 100 unit minimum production figure for both sYc and Shelby American, Inc. It was a monumental accomplishment for any Car dealer.

All the 1969 Models sold by Don Yenko have Chevrolet motor Division as the MFG, not sYc. The proper term would be conversions for the Cannonsberg cars.

All this stuff is getting to me as I spead through the post. I was specifically referring to the Stingers and the Shelby's built in model year 1966.

Belair62

10-10-2002, 01:15 AM

Its getting kind of fun picking fly shi* out of pepper ain't it !

JoeC

10-10-2002, 01:17 AM

Who would you say manufactured the Yenko Stinger? It had to be a 2 seat sports car to race in D Production class. The Corvair was illegal for this class because it was not a 2 seater. You had to have a Yenko Stinger manufactured by SYC. Chevrolet new this and helped Yenko by supplying the base car. This is why the YS number tag is such a big deal for the Stinger. You need it to race.

hvychev

10-10-2002, 01:19 AM

Remember how Peter Jennings from ABC news durring the Spetember 11th tragedy was always on the tele every time you turned it on back then? (I know it is a bad comparison) That is how I see poor Stefano right now. This guy has probably not slept since Sunday! Stefano please sit on your couch and have a margarita. IT ALWAYS WORKS FOR ME! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

JoeC

10-10-2002, 01:25 AM

Where did you guys go? I was ready for more. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif

Belair62

10-10-2002, 01:28 AM

Thats it...you guys are no fun anymore....I'm taking my Lillard* Chevelle and going home.

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 01:37 AM

Stefano, if what you are purporting to be true, the fact that Jack would not disclose the COPO ordering process to other dealers was part of the agreement, than you will never find this agreement in writing. Think about it. So all you are ever going to have is your conversations with Jack and your car will never be recognized as a Yenko, only a Douglass COPO. If you paid too much for your car, live with it.
Joe, where did Yenko get his Stingers from? Were they originally Corvairs? Yes or no? Does taking a rear seat out and making other modifications make you a manufacturer? When Don bought the cars from GM did it list Yenko on the MSO as manufacturer? You are trying to prove a point that can't be proven. Yenko was a Chevrolet dealer, was he not? Show me one (1) just one, MSO on a Yenko stinger, Camaro, Chevelle or Nova that states sYc or Yenko as the original manufacturer and I will owe you an apology, until that time, my case rests.

10-10-2002, 01:42 AM

WOW!! I wish the reunion was in a week!!

hvychev

10-10-2002, 01:42 AM

Stefano the sLc (Lillard Sports Cars) organization in Cali is wipping up a nice batch of Magragitas for you right now!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

BTW where did this Buckingham guy come from anyways? /ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif

JoeC

10-10-2002, 01:47 AM

Yenko didn't manufacture the whole car but neither did Chevy.

I will fix my post

SCCA recognized Yenko Sportscars Inc. as a manufacturer
ACCUS recognized Yenko Sportscars Inc. as a manufacturer
 69rsss350 does not recognized Yenko Sportscars Inc. as a manufacturer
 /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 01:48 AM

Joe, once again you have made my point for me "Chevrolet supplied Don with the base cars". Don then CONVERTED them.

shor

10-10-2002, 01:51 AM

Frank
quote BTW where did this ********** guy come from anyways? " end quote

Are you refering to ***** *******? Don't tell me 69rss350 has been posting again? On this thread?
I have had him on my blocked list for quite some time now, I don't see any of his posts /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 01:55 AM

Joe, do the VIN numbers on these cars designate sYc or Yenko as manufacturer or Chevrolet. It is not a case of whether I recognize these entities but whether or not they are legally and universally regognized as General Motor Chevrolet Division "manufactured" cars. I really don't choose to disqualify your opinion on who "manufactured" these cars any further, so this will be my last post on the manufacturing issue...unless of course you choose to embarass yourself further. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

copolocater

10-10-2002, 01:57 AM

What commercial is it that says ,WE DON'T MAKE IT WE JUST MAKE IT BETTER? YENKO CHEVROLET

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 02:13 AM

Post deleted by 69rsss350

Stefano

10-10-2002, 02:15 AM

Frank,
I am kick'in with a Fuente 858 trying to blow some more somke up some so called dealer @$$ who doen't understand the auction process. But it is his rating, I am certain no one else rated it, and he wants to take the rating and go home. If I could accommodate ,I would.

Since I paid too much maybe I'll be stuck with it for a long time /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif Sixtiesmuscle is your offer still good /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

I did put a little over 100 miles on the Stinger so far and I really like it I would say that It could probably out auto cross my C5 on a tight course.

I read an old letter from Stearling Moss to Don Yenko about how well the Stinger faired as a Sports car.

Lets get back to the positive stuff.

Stefano

10-10-2002, 02:27 AM

I would think the acid test could be who was responsible for the warranty. Don did what he had to do out of necessity and was able to make a significant impact on one of the largest and most powerfull Corporations of the era.

I would speculate that if Don could have arranged GM to provide the cars as he wanted then he wouldn't have even ventured into some of the areas he did. But he did and it is an awesome history even to non enthusiasts such as myself /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

shor

10-10-2002, 02:47 AM

69 Rss350, I have edited out your name from my previous post.
I do not need your address, phone number or kids names as you have offered above.
What about your wife? What is her name?

shor

10-10-2002, 02:55 AM

69 rs, are you having fun with this? I am...If you are taking this seriously and it is bothering you( i hope not)let me know and I will delete out my posts.
The last thing I want is to not have a friend at next years reunion

sYc

10-10-2002, 03:18 AM

I hate to bring it up, but because of the number of cars Yenko had produced/sold, the federal goverment (EPA) considered Yenko a manufacturer. That is why he was unable to sell his Vegas with his turbo kit. He was told that he would have to comply to the same rules as Ford, Chevy, etc and run the required 50,000 mile test. Following numerous discussions, threats, begging, etc, Don finally gave up and shelved the project. The paperwork related to this makes for some interesting reading. Joel Rosen ceased producing his awesome cars (at least for sale in the US) for the same reason. I believe Joel is quoted as saying that the fine was $10,000 for every infraction. Tom

Jeff H

10-10-2002, 03:25 AM

Geez, I get back from the bar and there's 3 more pages to this post. IMO the Yenko Stinger is an sYc created car due to major alterations(like the Shelby's), but the 69 Yenko Camaro is really a COPO(which Don helped create within GM) with a stripe package and a 450hp decal instead of the 425hp decal. The thing that made the Yenko Camaro such a collectible and valuable car is the fact that it was a 427 from the factory and the list of VIN's was known. If there's only 22-25 Douglas Yenko's out there, it's not worth all this arguing if we know the VIN's of the Douglas cars. Now that the Yenko Camaros aren't really worth anything anymore since we can't agree on what a real Yenko is, who wants to sell me one for $10,000? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

69rsss350

10-10-2002, 03:25 AM

Shor, it's all good. I have had alot of fun with not only this thread but this whole site. As you can probably tell, I am pretty passionate with my opinions. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif Stefano, I do understand the auction process and I do understand your points and I definetly believe in the "what the market will bear" concept. In fact that is how I make my living. Do, I think a Cannonsberg Yenko should have a premium value above your car. The answer is that I truly don't know but if I did, I would think it would be a small percentage if any. It just doesn't matter. I can only assume that since the car is for sale, you are selling it because you want to make a profit (I don't think it is because you need the money) and I believe you are entitled to that profit. After all (and I know this very well) a car is only worth what somebody is willing to write a check for and by the same token, if somebody is willing to pay a price than that is what the car is worth. Could be worth more or less to someone else. Bottom line, I wish I was the owner of your car. Or Charley's red/black 68 RS Yenko or yours Shor. Marlin, I'd love to have that Gobi beige Yenko deuce, Rob, your Chevelle, etc.

YenkoYS100

10-10-2002, 03:48 AM

Alot of great info. in this thread. Good luck on your auctions. Don't let the Corvette crowd hear you say that about a Stinger. Mine was beating Vettes on hillclimbs in the late '60's & early '70's (many FTD's).:D I hope this thread and your auction gets the Stingers their deserved recognition.

Be A Swinger in a Stinger!
-----------
Rick

Stefano

10-10-2002, 03:49 AM

Tom, that is is great info and I don't want to wait for your book to get more of it. Thanks for sharing that significant info.

Stefano

10-10-2002, 04:01 AM

Rick,
Thanks. Do you know who was racing a Stinger in the Monteray Historic Races at Laguna Seca last year. I would like to find out what it takes to get on the track for that event.

YenkoYS100

10-10-2002, 04:16 AM

Not positive about last year, but do know that Jim Schardt has run there in the past. Might be able to find some contact info. on Jim for you, if needed ?

Let me know,
Rick Gary Aubes Site. Schardt pics. (http://www.corvaircorsa.com/yenko08.html)

L78Impala

10-10-2002, 05:04 AM

This is like a good book that I can't put down. But come on guy's....a person has to sleep some time. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Kurt S

10-10-2002, 06:08 AM

How many conversations can we have at one time?!?

To answer Marlin: "What corroberating evidence of an agreement are you referring to? I have yet to see any evidence??"
I'm not sure anything less than the Dead Sea Scrolls will fit your evidence requirements. How many contracts between any of the dealers mentioned have survived all these years? Much less one that was for less than a year.
Evidence? There are statements from employees of both dealerships and one dealership owner, all of which jive surprisingly well. There's the fact that Douglas didn't lose the Chicago area Yenko distributorship. There's the fact that Yenko sold the stripes to Douglas. This is all evidence, none of it is heresay (well it is now since none of the people quoted actually posted the info).

"QUOTE: "What is a Yenko anyway? My definition would be:..." I would add to your definition that the car was ordered by and MSO'd to Yenko Chev."
I'm not sure why the source of the car would be in the definition. It is not what defined the product. The Nickey/Thomas scenario is similar, and the cars are still considered the Nickeys.
I said a 69 Yenko Camaro is : 'A COPO that was specially decalled as a Yenko and marketed as such.' This same statement can be changed to fit the Nickeys, Harrells, Yenkos, BMW's, etc. The source of the product was not what inferred value to the original customer, what did was the marketing of it as a Yenko (or Nickey, et al) and the inherent value associated with that name and what it represented.

Mike,
I agree Yenko was not a manufacturer, but per the sanctioning organization's rules, they could be considered one. Hey, they made those rules, people just worked around them. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Stefano,
My car is a L35 car.

BBIGG BLOCK 396

10-10-2002, 06:18 AM

HEY GUYS

This is some very interesting reading but GEEEZZ,Damn glad I just have a plain old Chevrolet Chevelle SS,only manfactured by Chevrolet and sold by Chevrolet.HA HA HA I don't have to worry about all the other POOP!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
"JUST FUNNIN YOU GUYS PLEASE DON'T BASH ME!!
Bobby

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-10-2002, 01:14 PM

Stefano & Kurt:
I don't need to see any agreements/contracts between Yenko SportsCars and the participating dealers, the MSO already states that those cars are Yenko's. The fact that Yenko ordered them makes them Yenko's, that Fencl-Tufo sold a given car tells me it was dealer transferred. We know it was transferred because we have a Delivery Sheet with the Delayed Floor Plan Privilege paperwork, and that's the paperwork trail that I like to see. Douglas did lose the exclusive Yenko dealership status in Chicago, there were approx. 6 Yenko dealers in '70 - Douglas wasn't one of them.

I'm not sure I believe the 'Dead Sea Scrolls' either, there is a lot of misunderstanding with them as well, just like the evolution theories etc.....

Kurt:
QUOTE: "What is a Yenko anyway? ....I'm not sure why the source of the car would be in the definition." I feel that the source of the car is exactly what defines a Yenko. Maybe that statement is what summarizes this whole discussion. I feel the source defines a Yenko, do you feel that the marketing package defines a Yenko?

lowmile

10-10-2002, 01:56 PM

Gentlemen, I do believe the the equine in question has been pummled into extinction. Just kidding, Us new guys are learning ALOT! This is better than WWF Monday night Nitro. A good "broo ha ha" just shows you have a pulse and a passion. I guess Yenko-Douglas will have to fall in to the category of religion and politics as things that can't be disscussed in a civil mannor in a public fourm. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

JoeC

10-10-2002, 02:01 PM

You mean people are actually reading this stuff? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

My information is historical facts from the 60s. I am not an uninformed magazine writer trying to sell copy and I am not a manure spewing auctioneer trying to pump up the value of the cars. /ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif
The information stated about the SCCA and ACCUS and EPA are documented facts. I forgot to mention one important fact that is stated in Chevrolet paperwork from 1969. Chevy lists the COPO options with a code number and short description. This is a quote from the list
"Option 9737 - Sports Car Conversion/Yenko/ "
Chevrolet used Don's name to describe the COPO option. That means something to me. The only other dealer mentioned in this paperwork is Fred Gibb. Yenko and Gibb deserve credit for the work they did to get these hi performance Chevrolets out of the factory, on the road, on the race tracks, and into the hearts and minds of the fans. /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

Stefano

10-10-2002, 02:39 PM

Marlin,
Now you are manufacturing info. Jack Douglass Did not have his rights to be a Yenko Dealer pulled out from under him. He gave them up voluntarilly , as to him the Deuce was not a car he wanted to try market. To keep the sYc rights he had to order a large quantity of Deuces and Choose not to do so.

Ed Schoenthaller who took on the Deuces at Fencil Tufo also tried to get sYc to set him up in 1969, while he was at Briganse Chevrolet. He was informed that Jack Douglass Chevrolet, Inc. maintained the exclusive territory.

It is the "fact" that no other Dealer existed in the state of Illinios, much less Chicago Metro For SYC while Jack Douglass Chevrolet was a Yenko Dealer.

If you lived in Chicago area and wanted a Yenko you went to Douglass Chevrolet to purchase one, this is the point I have been trying to make all along. It happened.

JoeC,
Reasonable people can agree to disagree ,to bash someone who was there,has seen ,owned and driven the cars as well as worked hand in hand with Jack Douglass, yet maintains an opinion different from yours, just simply reflects your true character and I am glad to see that you posted it for all to see. Thanks

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-10-2002, 02:53 PM

Stefano;
I am not doubting that Douglas had the exclusive rights, but again, we don't truly know whether it was Don or Jack who disolved the dealer from the Network. I would speculate that Jack effectively disolved the arrangement when he back-doored the process. He had obviously decided not to buy the Yenko's from Don anymore.

So, I will concede that Jack initiated the 'breakup', but not due to the '70 Yenko Deuce. More Deuces were sold in Illinois than any other state, the bulk of which were in Chicago! More than Virginia (#2), and PA (#3). Why would Jack not want to market the Deuce, a car that sold as well in Chicago as the '69 cars did? (And for the same amount of money I might add!).

What was the 'shipper document' that was found? Was it a delivery schedule, build sheet, broadcast sheet? I would propose that Jack found out about the COPO #'s from Berger?

Jeff H

10-10-2002, 03:20 PM

JoeC, you may have just hit the nail on the head then. If the Douglas cars are double COPO 9737 cars, then they are "Yenkos" according to Chevrolet. Now just add the striping and Yenko window sticker and you truly have a Yenko. The other 9737 cars ordered by other dealers did not receive the striping and were not marketed as Yenko's and did not pay royalty to Yenko so they obviously would not be Yenko's. Again, this is my opinion, but the 9737 should really be a part of the Yenko definition.

Stefano

10-10-2002, 03:22 PM

Marlin,
You are trying to put words in Jacks mouth. He Choose not to sell the Deuce for his own reasons right or wrong.

Since he has no desire to participate in this discussion you are getting the hear say from me.

It is just that which you mention about Chicago having been such a large market (and it was) Jack Douglass sold quite a few Yenkos. He was one of the highest volume dealers other than Yenko Chevrolet when you include his total sales of both his direct order and the Cannonsberg cars. If he and Don were at odds why wouldn't Don have acted by stopping Jack from selling the cars as Yenkos or setting up other dealers within the state prior to 1970. Jack received his first shippment of Yenkos probably early February.

No Jack did not learn of the COPO orders from Dale Berger. It has been clearly stated that he found a shipping invoice from GM, it is labled "Car Shipper".

If you follow the sequence of events, which state that he found a "Car Shipper" in two out of the first truck load, which showed the Central Office Production Order Numbers which allowed Jack to place his direct order.

Jack had Cannosberg Yenkos on his property long before Berger ever received any of there L72 Iron Block cars.

JoeC

10-10-2002, 03:27 PM

Other people have questioned the Mecum ad besides me. You also said the ad was going to be changed and it is still there. /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

<blockquote>In reply to:<hr>
I spoke to Dana on several occassions, in order to modify the info. on his site .It is not meant to decieve and will hopefully be adjusted very soon.

<hr></blockquote>

JoeC

10-10-2002, 03:33 PM

JeffH- other dealers were allowed to ordered 9737 Camaros both L72 Camaro and Chevelle and ZL1s. That does not mean they are Yenkos.

Stefano

10-10-2002, 03:33 PM

Jeff,
I have seen Copies of GM documents over the years which clearly show the 9737 option as "Yenko".

Don created this option package and it was his own. The reason Berger had info on this package is due to inside info. from GM back to them. This is one of the reasons why the Berger cars are also very special and historically significant. Their order od 40 Camaros and 10 Chevelles and even ZL1s also add to the Legacy of Don Yenko. Since Berger was not a Yenko Dealer and thus did not sell his cars to the public as such, no one should reasonably question or even conclude that the Beger Cars were Yenkos.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

10-10-2002, 03:57 PM

Stefano:
I don't mean to put any words in Jack's mouth, I'm only trying to figure out why such a big dealer, in a great demographic market, with an exclusive Yenko SportsCars distribution agreement, would not continue throughout '69 by ordering any more 427 Yenko cars from Yenko, nor into '70 when the Yenko Deuces were selling like griddlecakes, for equally good profit. I don't know why it wouldn't make good business sense to continue the 'exclusive dealer' arrangement unless something else really went sour between the two.

I propose that something did go wrong enough for Don to revoke the exclusive dealer deal.

I speculate that someone (long story) from GM let the cat out of the bag with Berger. Berger ended up with some 427 cars without any Yenko stripes. Douglas found out the COPO # from Berger and ordered some for himself. It's a great idea for Douglas, but the public keeps showing up wanting these Yenko cars that he was the exclusive dealer for, and wouldn't buy the 427 plain cars. Douglas calls up Yenko's parts guys and orders a bunch of stripe sets, and they are sent to him. Don is not exactly sitting around watching the spare parts shipments, so they are already in Douglas' hands when he finds out. Don obviously realizes what is going to happen here, he knows that the COPO word is out via Berger. Don is not a happy camper, and threatens to jump in his plane and pay a visit to Hinsdale, and sue Douglas. The two 'settle out of court' so to speak, by Douglas paying some type of inflated price to Don for the stripes, and Don releases him from the exclusive status in Chicago.

End of my Theory, and I feel that there was no formal agreement between the two for Jack to stripe COPO cars and selling them as Yenko's on Don's behalf. I feel that if Don could have gotten the stripes back he would have, but couldn't since there was nothing wrong with the stripe purchase.

I have another theory as well, but I'm tired of typing! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Thoughts?

copo9566aa

10-10-2002, 03:59 PM

All future search on this board = this thread 1966 Yenko Stinger for sale. /ubbthreads/images/icons/ooo.gif

JoeC

10-10-2002, 04:03 PM

Good theory Marlin, There seems to be no disagreement that Don Y was upset about what transpired. With good reason.

10-10-2002, 04:41 PM

Come on!! Nobody has posted in 40 minutes! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

NWYENKO

10-10-2002, 04:43 PM

Marlin needs 6 while Stephano needs 9. We should start a betting line!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif Jim

Stefano

10-10-2002, 05:01 PM

Dave,
Maybe we should call it "ohhhhh one of those cars" as you so eloquently stated when we spoke about the Daytona Yellow one I had for sale a few moons ago.

I am glad to see that you were to sharp for my missreprentations /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif Happy now!

Jeff H

10-10-2002, 05:14 PM

I think you guys misread my post or I worded it poorly. /ubbthreads/images/icons/blush.gif I'm saying that if the Douglas Yenkos are 9737 cars, then they really are identical to the Canonsburg Yenkos. If the Douglas cars don't have the 9737, then I would say they need to be identified differently than the Canonsburg Yenkos. The other dealers that ordered the 9737 COPOs had no intention of selling them as a Yenko so obviously they wouldn't and couldn't be considered a Yenko. I promise this is my last $.02 on this thread. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Stefano

10-10-2002, 05:22 PM

Marlin,
If we are to ignore all the substantial info. we have and just start to fabricate information to increase a post count ,which it seems you are happy to do, then I choose to no longer participate.

What evidence do you have to Support your claims and what portion of it is in writing ?Who do you have to corroborate your fictitious statements.

Don't resort to belittle the thread and make this something that it is not.

They are,were and always will be Douglass Yenkos no more and no less.

For someone who prides himself as a Super Car histrorian you could have at least learned to spell the Douglass name correctly.

Or better yet lets just stick our heads in the sand and say that it never even took place and lets take the cars and restore them to what should have been in your opinion and not what was.

JoeC

10-10-2002, 05:34 PM

Jeff H, they are still not identical to the Canonsburg Yenkos because they were not ordered with the same options and some were colors that Yenko did not use when he ordered them himself.

COPO

10-10-2002, 05:39 PM

The shipper document found was likely the "Shipper Copy" of the window sticker that would have had all the RPO's and COPO #'s shown but not the prices. I have seen these before. I think Ed C. shows one in his COPO Connection book and there is one in Jerry MacNeish's book as well. They are the next best thing after an original window sticker.

Jeff H

10-10-2002, 05:49 PM

OK, now I'm making myself a liar because I'm adding another post to this thread. JoeC, I mean identical in the performance options, not necessarily the color or other options. Not all Canonsburg Yenkos are identical in options as is evidenced in that photo of the cars in the lot. Some have vinyl roofs and the yellow one has the endura bumper so I (my opinion) don't think you can say all Canonsburg Yenkos are identical. My point about the 9737 option is a strong case for identifying all the Yenkos together and I was curious what other members thought of this theory so all input is welcomed. I've learned a lot with this thread and I sure hope others have too. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

tom406

10-10-2002, 05:56 PM

Wow, I finally stopped by to read this post. 12 pages of comments on a Yenko Stinger couldn't be ignored. Two hours later, I must admit I found the whole thing to be quite informative and entertaining.

I'm going to come down on the side of considering the $400-converted Douglas cars "true". If they were still $50K cars I'd consider their values equivalent. Now that we're talking six figures, it gets blurry. At those lofty prices, you get into issues of perception and owner's egos.

Looking at the cars from a business perspective, the converting-at-the-selling-dealer model makes perfect sense. Given the simple nature of the '69 "conversion" of stripes and emblems, its a huge waste of time and money to ship cars from Detroit to Cannonsburg, then back out across the country. Shipping has never been free, and the more loading and handling that occurs only increases the risk of damage. The only reason Don Yenko had to keep cars in his pipeline was to keep himself in the middle, and to ensure that he was compensated for his role in developing and promoting these great cars. If he could have trusted his supercar network to not go around him, but instead order and outfit cars to his specifications and pay him a proper royalty, I don't see why this model wouldn't have worked just fine everywhere. But without control of the COPO ordering process, this obviously wasn't a viable solution for him.

Describing Yenko as a manufacturer is fine with me when talking in the context of '65-'67. I don't think anyone could have had an easy time being a "manufacturer" with the heightened restrictions of '68-on. Shelby threw in the towel on Cobra production, and established makers of European cars like Austin-Healy's and the like couldn't economically retool them to meet '68 specs. Yenko ran into that with several of his early '70's engine conversion projects, as stated earlier. The '69 Camaros and '70 Deuces were GM cars that he orchestrated, but didn't manufacture, per se.

I was really tuned up for the idea of a Douglas Yenko in other colors with good options. Then Stefano writes that they all had 711 standard interiors /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif . How could you take the opportunity order up a '69 Camaro for max appeal and leave the taxicab seats and door panels?

I applaud eveyone in keeping the discussion (mostly) positive. If you take this too far, it'll be like the Corvette hobby. It happened to the Mopar guys (They went from greasy baseball hats and "Big Johnson" T-shirts to guys wearing Dockers asking me if the glass is date coded correctly...)