M-22 ???

[Born30YrsLate]

Last fall I picked up what looked like a muncie M22 tranny - it has the course spline input shaft with no rings on the input shaft and a 661 case, I'm thinking it was a warranty replacement trans - it also has no VIN on the case as well as no assembly date. Recently I took the side cover off and the cut of the gears resemble an M21/M20 (gears have a steep cut to them)...I compared them to a '68 M22 I have and there is a definite difference in the angle of the gears in each trans (the '68 gears are at about half the angle as the other trans I picked up). I had initially thought that maybe somebody stuck and early set of M20 gears in the trans, but didn't they use a different size countershaft back then. I am confused why there are no grooves on this input shaft (indicating an M22) but the gear cut is the M21/M20 style.
As always - all input is appreciated.

[camarojoe]

I'm certainly no tranny expert, but I don't think the grooves, splines, etc. are always a guaranteed indicator of m20/M21/M22 transmissions. I have always been told you need to physically see the gears inside to guarantee what it is... sounds to me like its not an M22.

[John Brown]

Some of the over the counter inputs for M21 trannys didn't get the grooves cut in them. Are there any identification grooves in the cluster gear? Usually the inputs and clusters had matching id. grooves.

[JoeG]

There's a thread that covered this, I can't find it, but this site has the info that should help--Joe is right the fool proof way is to compare gears--- web page (http://www.gearheadracing.com/Reference/TransID/muncie.htm)

[Salvatore]

I always thought the M22 was a fine spline more times than not. Was the M22 around in 68? The Rock Crusher.

[Born30YrsLate]

There is definitely a difference in the gears - it's good to hear that this has been heard of before and has an explanation. The guy I bought it from said it was an M22 - if it's not he said he would give me my money back, so I'm not out any money and gained more knowledge!
The input shaft as well as the cluster gear shaft both have no grooves on them.

Sam - if my memory serves me correct the M22 began to be built in '65 in a very limited quantity and from there to 1969 it was a coarse spline (10 splines) and then from 1970 and up the M22 were fine spline (26 splines) on the input shaft....any body feel free here to correct me if I'm wrong any where I'm just pulling this off the top of my head from something I read a while back.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[JoeG]

Good saved me diggin that spline info out----Here's a better photo --M22 on the right--on left --M20/M21---- http://www.yenko.net/attachments/134247-Scan0013.jpg The no groove cluster gears are as follows--2rings=M20,1ring=M21, no rings = M22, 1963-1965 M20 or replacement part---(can't gone wrong lookin at the gear angle)

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

One indication of a transmission being a M22 is it will have no rings around the input shaft.M22 trans came with the course and fine splins input shafts.All M22 cases will have been drilled and tapped for the drain boss.Sometimes you will also see different type spline output shafts on a real M22 trans.But the tale tale sign is to pull the side cover and look at the cut of angle on the gears and that will determine in fact if it is a M22.I have some literature on 4 speeds and will try to get a moderator to post this where everyone can go to it and refer to it when needed.I will have to dig it out of a box.Also the rings or grooves around an input shaft actually designate the gear ratio of the trans.I do not remember all the trans cases #'s to quote them but do have that information.I will get it out and make it availiable to all.I actually dealt in muncie shifters and transmissions for awhile and compiled some information on the trancsmissions.A lot of people see a Borg Warner Super T10 and they think they have found a M22 but Borg warner did not make a M22.Although the Super T10 Borg Warner trans was a great trans to use for a high performance operation.

Bobby Dodson

Bobby

[SuperNovaSS]

This is a little off the subject but is there is no build date or VIN does that mean the trans was an over the counter replacement? I have see many without build dates and VIN stamps in original cars and always wondered. I would think the muncie plant would always stamp a build date but that is obviously not the case, no pun intended.


Jason

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

Try these sites WWW.gearzone will work,www.4speeds .com will work but when it displays it in th eheader bar it leaves the l at the end off just put that l on and it will work,can't figure out why the last site dont work i have accessed it. But this will help with all the 4 speed muncie questions

Bobby Dodson


http://www.4speeds.com/casting.html (http://www.4speeds.com/casting.htm)

http://www.gearzone.net/muncie2.htm

http://www.interlog.com/~muncie/history.html

[budnate]

I am to tired to dig it up the stuff I have on the subject ..but I looked at a trans 2 yrs ago and it was 72/3/4..??? trans had fine spline input looks like a M22, I may have my facts bassackwards here but I think they made M20's in the early 70s that looked like M22's...anyway thats how I recall how it went..something screwy anyways. Jeff was working with me on it..Jeff you recall how that went???

Bud.

[JoeG]

Here'e a photo of the 4sp Muncie transmission assembly ID tags you might find ...These photos are courtesy of "The Chevelle Report"--Mark Meekins-----The best publication while it was out http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/attachments/134282-Scan0014.jpg

[Mr70]

Amen

[DarrenX33]

For what it's worth (perhaps nothing) here is a shot of the head gear in my M22. Just so happens to be out of the car right now. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/dagcostello/138-3889_IMG.jpg

[Zman]

Since you've already confirmed it's not an M-22, if you want to determine if it's an M-20, or M-21, simply count the teeth on the input shaft. 21 teeth = M-20, 26 teeth = M-21/22. The exception is the Early M-20 with 24 teeth.
(M-21, and M-22 have the same gear ratios).
ALL M-22 regardless of the year should have a drain plug.
ALL 70 up "661" cases have the drain plug regardless of ratio.
ALL "661" boxes from 70 - 74 have 26 spline input shaft, and 32 spline output shaft.
ALl info taken from www.gearzone.net (http://www.gearzone.net)

[JoeG]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif any markings or tags on yours-----

[DarrenX33]

Yes Joe. I'll shoot more pics tonight. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[DarrenX33]

3950318

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/dagcostello/138-3894_IMG.jpg

[DarrenX33]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/dagcostello/138-3892_IMG.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v674/dagcostello/138-3892_IMGn.jpg

[Born30YrsLate]

Input shaft and gears of trans in question....no grooves on input shaft and looks like M21/M20 gear cut.

[Hotrodpaul]

Some aftermarket input shafts do not have grooves to denote M20 or M21 ratio's. It may not be an original GM input shaft.

Paul
69 Camaro SS 396 L78

[Zman]

Like I said....Count the Teeth on the input GEAR, not the splines on the shaft. M-20 = 21. M-21/22 = 26.
The exception is the very early M-20 with 24 teeth.

[Mr70]

Fred
Checkout Charleys M-22 pictures he's selling in the Parts for sale section.

[JoeG]

[ QUOTE ]
looks like M21/M20 gear cut.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like---

Is there a production #? A=M20,B=M21 -----ex. like on Charley's M22

[JoeG]

Or do like Zman said count the teeth on the input gear---

Thanks for the photo of that tag Darren http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif