1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil:
I absolutely want it both ways. In fact, I want it (at least) five ways.
1. Fist hand accounts by Fisher and GM workers.
2. First hand accounts by original owners.
3. Facts as set out by unbiased researchers.
4. GM documentation on what was available or possible.
5. Contemporary photographs, such as car mags, owners pics from weddings, etc.

In addition, the CONCLUSIONS of experts who have researched thousands of cars are helpful. Doesn't mean they are always right.

I want all the evidence. No one source is infallible. I can remember in great detail the first time I saw a girl naked. But, ask me what day it was. I don't have a clue. Ask me what she was wearing 20 min. before. No idea. Now, suppose that girlfriend kept a diary, and had a dated entry of the event. Now we have another piece of the puzzle. Suppose also, that the date happened to be her brother's birthday, and there were family photos from the birthday. Now we have a third piece.

James admitted that what he had always thought was chipped in stone, was not. The revelation from the workers on the paint process for special paint cars changed his mind.

I have no idea what you mean by the following question: &quot;Is there a better way to communicate new information and discoveries to the hobby in general?&quot; Just present it. If someone doesn't want to believe it, it wouldn't matter if Moses brought it down from the mountain etched in stone. That is their problem, not yours and mine.

Just to be clear; the very first pic I saw a couple years ago of the paint under the door panel on Clem's car, I thought to myself (before I even read the thread) &quot;Wow, that car was Evening Orchid from the factory.&quot; Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Do I care if someone else disagrees with me? Not one bit.

I appreciate what you have done for this hobby. On the other hand, I appreciate what others have done coming from a different perspective. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. MOST OF THE TIME, it is simply two ways of arriving at the same conclusions. For those times when they don't reach the same conclusions, I want as many facts as possible. </div></div>



<span style="font-weight: bold">Great.. Now I know where you stand, so please indulge me in a simple and respectful examination of where we agree:
</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">You say:</span>

&quot;I absolutely want it both ways&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">Gotcha... and your original quote bears that out. You are not willing to throw the establishment under the bus nor are you willing to throw Clem under the bus. I get that.</span>


&quot;In fact, I want it (at least) five ways&quot;.

1. &quot;Fist hand accounts by Fisher and GM workers&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">I agree we have that from one plant (possibly more in the future)</span>

2. &quot;First hand accounts by original owners&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">We have that from Clem and His wife.</span>

3. &quot;Facts as set out by unbiased researchers&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold"> Comment... One persons unbiased researcher is another Man's &quot;Partisan researcher&quot;</span>

4. &quot;GM documentation on what was available or possible&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">We have that to an extent.. and I have quite a bit of that from research on the plant.</span>

5. &quot;Contemporary photographs, such as car mags, owners pics from weddings, etc&quot;. <span style="font-weight: bold">Comment... potentially useful however old photos have limitations when you are looking at color (for instance) and the disagreement within the locked thread bears this out clearly.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">You say:</span>

&quot;I appreciate what you have done for this hobby. On the other hand, I appreciate what others have done coming from a different perspective. Doesn't mean one is right and one is wrong. MOST OF THE TIME, it is simply two ways of arriving at the same conclusions. For those times when they don't reach the same conclusions, I want as many facts as possible&quot;.

<span style="font-weight: bold">I agree, however if we are talking about factory issues and special paint (which is and was the focal point of Clem's old car) then that is a narrow knowledge path where the workers are the subject matter experts. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Lynn, For better or worse I am the voice of the organized Norwood worker group. They have discovered the intense interest that exists within the hobby through the writing of the book. Also know this....If you think Clem is abrasive in the critique of what goes on in these forums you should hear what several of the Norwood guys really think of the knowledge base that posts here. They look with amazement on the &quot;certainty&quot; the group has in drawing conclusions about the most trivial detail of the assembly process process mostly from individual cars 45 years on now, and trust me Clem is charitable by comparison with what he thinks. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">The workers have recently tried to reach out through the book and through me. My outreach to the hardcore segment of the hobby is mostly a failure and since I never worked at Norwood a day in my life-- I admittedly have zero direct Knowledge of what happened on the lines. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">What I continue to do is assist the workers by providing a voice to their work experiences as a liaison to the collector car hobby. In reply to your question about the hobby and communication well that is pretty obvious. The fact is that most every thread I am involved in eventually goes partisan where the hobby expert class has existing positions that sometimes are at great odds with the reality of the consistent recall of the workers who were there. </span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">Make no mistake the message is not my mine, it is the workers and they feel quite rejected. Rejected to the point where meetings were extended to the persons that could benefit the most from the interaction. All declined.</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">So in the face of forum bans, locked threads, declined invitations to meet and threads that consistently go negative with an impossible burden of proof, how would you suggest that the information from the workers be released to the hobby?</span>

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Schonyenko2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Info: no opinion. When I went to body paint tech school in 1971 we were told that GM used 4 paint jobbers Dupont Acme, R&amp;M, and Ditzler. All laquer. All the same, but slightly different. So sometimes you had factory variences. Also that made panel painting difficult without blending into the next panel.

The lighter colors like EO or Cortez silver deteriorated quickly due to UV rays. Color fade, bleaching out, cracking was very common for any of those shades especially if they spent time in direct sunlight.

It's an interesting car. The tech side discussion has been interesting.

Having worked in a factory during that time we're probably lucky the cars looked as good as they did. Lotta those guys &quot;smoked&quot; lunch. </div></div>

Exactly.. You nailed it.

[Lynn]

This is where egos need to be checked at the door. Why does ANYONE need to get thrown under a bus?
You got me? I have no idea what that means. If it means that you win the pissing match, then fine, I gladly concede. I hope you mean something else.

I never said Clem was abrasive.

Tell you what, I am covered up through October, but should have some free time after that. Set up meetings with workers. Give me a time and place. If it is in the Continental US, and I don't have a prior commitment, I will be there. I will be glad to help spread the workers' messages.

I have some suggestions for you that are 100% constructive, but given the tone of this thread, they are not going to be perceived as such. Tried to reach out to you by PM, but your box is full.

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is where egos need to be checked at the door. Why does ANYONE need to get thrown under a bus?
You got me? I have no idea what that means. If it means that you win the pissing match, then fine, I gladly concede. I hope you mean something else.

I never said Clem was abrasive.

Tell you what, I am covered up through October, but should have some free time after that. Set up meetings with workers. Give me a time and place. If it is in the Continental US, and I don't have a prior commitment, I will be there. I will be glad to help spread the workers' messages.

I have some suggestions for you that are 100% constructive, but given the tone of this thread, they are not going to be perceived as such. Tried to reach out to you by PM, but your box is full. </div></div>


On the Egos I could not agree more.

This year I did Norwood type events on both coasts and I have a big event coming in the November time frame. YOU ARE INVITED!

I cleaned out my PM box BTW..and I am looking forward to a constructive relationship. I will be in touch. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

[bergy]

Phil - I know that the Norwood assembly workers don't all have the skill and/or desire to write a book. That's where your presence has been invaluable. It would be really cool, however, if one or two of the most knowledgeable of those workers could participate directly in a forum like this. Can you encourage them to do that? I actually worked at St. Louis and Tonawanda during late 60's &amp; throughout the 70s, but I never worked at Norwood. It would be great for us to be able to ask the actual worker(s) questions in a forum like this. Many of the members here won't be traveling to the Norwood events. It would be a real service to our hobby if you could encourage them to check in with us once in a while.

I'm a geezer now, but at 28 years of age I was promoted to superintendent of production at Chevrolet. At 26 I was senior engineer in charge of troubleshooting quality &amp; special projects. So, I got to see and experience a lot the production processes. It would be great to be able to &quot;compare notes&quot; on this site with others who had production experience. Memories fade (I know that mine does!).

[70 copo]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil - I know that the Norwood assembly workers don't all have the skill and/or desire to write a book. That's where your presence has been invaluable. It would be really cool, however, if one or two of the most knowledgeable of those workers could participate directly in a forum like this. Can you encourage them to do that? I actually worked at St. Louis and Tonawanda during late 60's &amp; throughout the 70s, but I never worked at Norwood. It would be great for us to be able to ask the actual worker(s) questions in a forum like this. Many of the members here won't be traveling to the Norwood events. It would be a real service to our hobby if you could encourage them to check in with us once in a while.

I'm a geezer now, but at 28 years of age I was promoted to superintendent of production at Chevrolet. At 26 I was senior engineer in charge of troubleshooting quality &amp; special projects. So, I got to see and experience a lot the production processes. It would be great to be able to &quot;compare notes&quot; on this site with others who had production experience. Memories fade (I know that mine does!). </div></div>

I just had this discussion with them about this over the past few days. I was promptly reminded that I had written a book, and was working on a documentary and that is how we had jointly agreed to put a public face on the worker experiences.

I was cooked when both guys pointed out how the original owner was chastised for what they termed &quot;straight talk&quot; about his car. Bottom line was that they were clear the hobby issues on the internet were &quot;my job&quot; to communicate.

I cannot blame them [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img] .

They prefer personal interaction face to face. That are what the events are for.

[clem]

what happened to me happen to a friend over on the NCRS board. when his rare corvette came to light in a national magazine one of the big wigs in the hobby ?? wanted to broker his car. when my friend refused this guy started to tell people that the car was not real. does this sound familiar ?

[SS427]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm a geezer now, but at 28 years of age I was promoted to superintendent of production at Chevrolet. At 26 I was senior engineer in charge of troubleshooting quality &amp; special projects. So, I got to see and experience a lot the production processes. It would be great to be able to &quot;compare notes&quot; on this site with others who had production experience. Memories fade (I know that mine does!). </div></div>

Amen to that! As a detail fanatic I strive to learn as much as I can every day and there are many things it would be nice to hear about.

As far as the Norwood guys go, I met several of them at MCACN last year and they are great guys with a huge willingness to talk about their experiences and gave me an open door.

[bergy]

Phil, IMO - you're doing the wrong thing in sheltering these guys from sites like this one. Good for you - bad for the community. :-( Rick - did they give you contact info?

[sYc]

I find it interesting that a letter from Jack Douglass will make one of his COPOs become a Yenko, but a similar letter from Mr. Grabiek regarding the color of this Z-28 carries little, if any weight.