1970 gto judge ram air IV

[Born30YrsLate]

There is a time and a place for everything - the time and the place to drive the crap out of the supercars was back when they had a reputation to establish...and now that they have their reputation they should be allowed to enjoy life in the "retirement lane"...an occasional drag pass or "carbon run" doesn't seem to hurt much as would a nice drive out on the highway. The reason there aren't as many supercars around today is because they had the snot driven out of them back in the day. My feeling is you don't have to live history to appreciate it...a little taste goes a long way....... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

[mrmuscle]

i agree somewhat, but i think a person should be able to do what they want with their own cars. if they want to store them forever, run the crap out of them or trailer queen them to death it is their choice and nobody should give them a hard time about it.

[Jeff H]

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i agree somewhat, but i think a person should be able to do what they want with their own cars. if they want to store them forever, run the crap out of them or trailer queen them to death it is their choice and nobody should give them a hard time about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You nailed it! There are people that do all of the above and we each have our own feelings, but that shouldn't affect anyone else. I can appreciate bone stock original cars, modified restored cars, pro-touring cars, etc.

[Steve_Hoog]

Mr Muscle

I just got off the phone with Gary, and he's a little embarrassed that your giving away his driving habits.

He also said that he checked the car today for body sealer and carpet insulation. He said it has both.

[skierkaj]

I understand where all you guys are coming from. I know I may not have as much experience as some others out there, but I do know that restoring a vintage vehicle is a lot of work. I did everything MYSELF on my camaro, minus the final coat of paint and clearcoat. I agree with you Charley, that you do have mixed emotions about beating on your car (i.e. stone chips from some gravel and sealcoat on my quarters and bottom of front fenders), but once again, IMO, cars are meant to be driven and shown off. It gives you a good feeling when you pull into a crowded football game parking lot, and everyone stares at you as you rumble past. IMO, if the car is too good to be driven, you don't deserve to own it. I hope this hasn't offended anyone.

In response to Born30YrsLate, who says those glory days are over? No car should have to suffer the feats of "retirement lane," unless you're talking about a Geo. Cars don't have the satisfaction of a retirement; fellow wrencheads forbid it. True Wrencheads want the same performance as "back in the day," and aren't afraid to use the car. A car's only true retirement comes in the form of a crusher.

[mrmuscle]

i agree with that and you are mostly correct about the retirement when it hits the crusher. even then it is giving itself up so we can all still have canned tuna. lol

[Belair62]

Gentlemen....TJS44 ..Tom S.. has probably forgotten more about Pontiacs than most of us even know...Tom...great to hear you chime in...you helped me out a bit on that old 63 Kimberly Blue SD car a while back...so how long have you been racing Pontiacs Tom ?

[Belair62]

Motown...you rode your bike to Trailer Week but....was your hair perfect !!! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img] and did you bring your wingtips ?

[tjs44]

thanks,1962.I know enough to get by.I just know that a lot of factory "mule"car were clone cars.My 63 lemans that Tyree drove in 64-65,he still swears was a mule.I know Arlin built the factory"mlue RunningBear 63 tempest.I know that my cars are clones as I built tem.My 69 T/a is a numbers matching RAIII car I put the V in.I drive all my cars and if anyone is ever in the SoCal area they are welcome to see and drive any of them.Tom

[supcarbob]

I have been watching this thread with great interest.I don't post much but I keep track of whats going on with this site.I really like the COPO cars and I go to the SCR reunions and never miss a Vettefest, but I am an 'eat,sleep,drink' Pontiac man. We have owned a Pontiac exclusive dealership for over 35 years. I have been a GTO fan since the begining owning Ram Air 3 ,4 and 5 along with H.O.'s and Super Duty's.
I know Jim Mattison , Jim Wangers and Milt Schornick personally along with our dealership still sponsering Arnie Beswick(he hopes to be driving again next year).
I believe without a doubt that -NO- Ram Air 5 came from the factory or through engineering.
You have to remember that in late 1969 Pontiac lost to Chevy-John Deloreon. Jim Wangers was gone from the Ad agency also. It was a time of change with James McDonald taking charge of Pontiac. He was a 'corporate guy' that followed the book. I doubt he would have jeopordized his new position to build or have engineering build 2 non-emmission certified cars for racing or to sell,no matter who the dealer was. I also don't think anyone in engineering or marketing would have put there neck out to do this and risk there future or retirement for 2 cars,especially when you had new top management that once again was used to doing things 'the GM way'.
The ' memo' has used to make the production line aware of a unique feature. I have attached an invoice to a 1968 GTO showing 'memo and memo number' along with actual build sheet verifying that memo number with the special instructions. Has a build sheet turned up for either car?.That would tell the memo mystery on these cars. The 'special equipment' charge on the invoice in my opinion could be for the special sound deadener delete and lack of underlying carpet insulation and no body sealer.I believe in an earlier post Micky Hale confirmed these features on Mike's car. In 1970 there was no regular RPO(regular production number) for this feature. This would have required a memo for assembly line workers to make these changes.
As far as the 2 cars,from the build sheets posted they have consecutive dealer order numbers. That would tell me that Knafel was possibly planning to race both cars(auto and 4-speed). Mike's(sixties muscle) car also could not have been an advertising car that Knafel received for a 'good deal' because of that same dealer order number and the fact it shows the dealer would have received his'holdback' carry over allowance money for a 'new- car. Any company car,press car or brass hat car from the factory for reduced prices would not have ' holdback' and also show milage when taken out of service on the actual invoice.
I have attached a small piece from the November 1970 'Car Craft' magazine featuring an article on the Knafel race car 1970 Judge (Mike's car). It clearly states the car was built -without- the use of Ram Air 5 pieces,and this magazine was from when the car was new. I would believe that to be also true of the sold silver Judge.
Mike(sixtiesmuscle),I agree that there was a -LOT- of resentment from Knafel towards Jim Wangers and especially Royal Pontiac for all the press they received. Royal was the number #1 Pontiac performance image dealer in that time. Nobody was even a close second to them.I have met Bill Knafel on several occasions and have found him to be a great person. However,I have heard some of his stories that have raised the eyebrows of a lot of very knowledgeable Pontiac people.
Sorry for the long post. have never tried to attach pictures but here goes...