russo and steel chop job camaro copo

[Xplantdad]

Charley...thanks for being a voice of reason. There is a darn good reason you are a moderator...

[firstgenaddict]

I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other. NOW whether you would have a civil case against the person... that is a different story.

[Racefan]

So, given all the headaches that are caused by someone revealing the potential "issues" with a car....how can someone who doesn't frequent this site do the level of diligence to avoid these problems?

In my opinion (if all this is true)--
1) Buyer should look toward auction house for initial resolution (which has been done)
2) Auction house should look to the seller for any fees due under the contract (which it sounds like has been begun)
3) Seller should pay fees due
4) Seller then has to go back to the seller to him for restitution
5) So on, and so on, and so on back to the "restoration" took place

I would say that the first person to be hurt by this car is PhilS. By Charley's account (which by his admission may not be completely accurate), PhilS sold the car at a reduced rate based upon the information found. Should be easy to see (if the purchase price jumped significantly somewhere) who did not disclose the information, no?

Would be interesting to see what VINs are in the other locations......

Makes a guy like me not try so hard to put away enough money to buy a car like this. Kind of leaning toward only purchasing known "clones"...that way I can get the same sensations from driving a car like this without the risk of substantial loss of funds on something that isn't as advertised. This is precisely the reason I have never been remotely interested in Corvettes......damn shame, really!

[Racefan]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think your statement is entirely true.... please follow this link VIN Fraud

Also, it appears that in 2005 Canada was trying to put more teeth into its laws concerning this. Not sure what the outcome was? Canadian VIN Fraid Info

[Born30YrsLate]

[ QUOTE ]

Someone should check for traces of a 4 speed shift hole. I remember mention of this from before but don't remember the details.


[/ QUOTE ]
This thread gives some info...PhilS made a short statement about the tunnel at the bottom of pg 1 of the topic. trans tunnel

[firstgenaddict]

VIN Fraud
Jun 11, 2007
As our classic cars gain in value, VIN fraud is becoming
more and more common. Several people have asked to read the laws concerning VIN numbers, counterfeit VIN tags and VIN fraud in general. VIN fraud is covered by Federal Law and every state has their own additional laws which in some cases are more strict that the Federal Laws.

Federal VIN Laws

From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 20, 2004]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 20, 2004 and December 23, 2004]
[CITE: 18USC511]

TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

I read this to say if you are the legal owner that you can obliterate, remove, etc a VIN with no penalty. Opinions?

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if swapping Vins is illegal in Canada, but it is not in SC. If the person legally owns both cars you can do what ever you want to them... including swapping vins from one to the other. NOW whether you would have a civil case against the person... that is a different story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wanna bet 15 years of your life on that advice?

You are absolutely wrong on that one. It is illegal to swap a VIN from one body to another under Federal law. Period. It doesnt matter if you own both bodies.

The crime does not get prosecuted very often because there are far more dangerous Federal crimes out there getting the attention of Federal law enforcement, but when they do get prosecuted it is usually a high doller car...I think a ZL1 or a COPO would fit the bill perfectly.

I remember a case back '99 where an old guy was swapping VINs on Porsches to hide the fact they were wrecked and/or stolen. In addition to the cars, he got charged with 1 count of VIN tampering for every single piece of sheetmetal with a hidden VIN found on it during the search. The complaint was 20 pages long. He was facing about 15 years under the sentencing guidelines for the various charges, but he didnt serve any time "up here" though, -he died after pleading guilty.

The comical thing about the Federal system is that if you die before you are sentenced or while your case is on appeal, the conviction is thrown out on procedural grounds and it's like you were never charged in the first place.

So I guess he got to the "Firey Gates" with one less conviction on his resume.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
VIN Fraud
Jun 11, 2007
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 25--COUNTERFEITING AND FORGERY

Sec. 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification
numbers

(a) A person who--
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are--
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a
decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the
motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by--
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

I read this to say if you are the legal owner that you can obliterate, remove, etc a VIN with no penalty. Opinions?

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you notice that the statutory exemption language talks about the removal of the tag during restoration, repair etc? The exemption applies to the removal of the VIN from one car and its replacement back on THAT SAME CAR during the repair.

There is no exemption for the removal of a VIN from one body and the placement of it on ANOTHER body. That is the most common way the above-discussed crime is committed.

[Zedder]

Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

[EZ Nova]

[ QUOTE ]
Swapping VINS is illegal in Ontario, Canada....

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought I JUST SEEN that they, the "law makers", were just going to make it a law, as of now it was not? I can't recall where I seen that, but it was within the last couple of weeks???